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Changes in the Ginans
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If one is just stuck to ginans( Quran beautifully explained) may get stuck upto haqiqati level n may miss the opportunity toward Marifa/towhid.


Here it shows again that how ignorant person are you in ginans!!! Ginans does not only teach us Haquqati levels but it teach us more, I mean lots more about Ruhaniyat and how to reach the last level of Marifat!.

Quote:
ginans were composed from vedic background by pirs from granth,vedas,gita,garbi etc.it revolves around it n comes to haqiti essecence after few verses.It was very much needed at that time n circumstances.


Now read your own quote above!! how narrow minded are you? you have not studied ginans properly if you have studied then you would not have wrote ; what you wrote in your very first post!!!!!

Brother Admin,Kbhai and my self answered in your that post: ginans are not composed on Vedic background and ginans were necessary that time and it is still necessary even today.
But I learned today that you have not changed since then!! you were wrong that day and you are still wrong even today!! you are lost, you are confused and try to confused other readers with your scornful post; like above!! which does not a value of a single cents!.
you are wondering in wrong directions to achieve Marifats!!


Last edited by agakhani on Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the team 'Pranalika":Ya Ali Madad.

For a while I will take my self as confused. (It is one word reply of an escapist).
I wish the well read members to clear my confusion.

1. What is exact definition of the word 'traditions' and 'tariqa' in context to Ismailism?

2. Is traditions is same as Tariqa.or is Tradition= Tariqa ?

3.I was confused that material of tradition is not the destiny by itself but it was/is to introduce to Tariqa,which a path to destiny.

I also have more questions n further one's based upon replies
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
To the team 'Pranalika":Ya Ali Madad.

For a while I will take my self as confused. (It is one word reply of an escapist).
I wish the well read members to clear my confusion.

1. What is exact definition of the word 'traditions' and 'tariqa' in context to Ismailism?

2. Is traditions is same as Tariqa.or is Tradition= Tariqa ?

3.I was confused that material of tradition is not the destiny by itself but it was/is to introduce to Tariqa,which a path to destiny.

I also have more questions n further one's based upon replies
MHI in his Farman has said:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964

Below is the definition of tradition:
Theology
a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular.

I hope that clears your confusion.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
MHI in his Farman has said:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964

Below is the definition of tradition:
Theology
a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular.

I hope that clears your confusion.


kmaherali - how smartly you picked the one definition of tradition that suited your position. See below the full description of tradition.


tra-di-tion
trəˈdiSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: tradition
1.
the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
"every shade of color is fixed by tradition and governed by religious laws"
synonyms: historical convention, unwritten law, mores; More
a long-established custom or belief that has been passed on in this way.
plural noun: traditions
"Japan's unique cultural traditions"
synonyms: custom, practice, convention, ritual, observance, way, usage, habit, institution; formal praxis
"an age-old tradition"
an artistic or literary method or style established by an artist, writer, or movement, and subsequently followed by others.
"visionary works in the tradition of William Blake"
2.
THEOLOGY
a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular.
(in Christianity) doctrine not explicit in the Bible but held to derive from the oral teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
(in Judaism) an ordinance of the oral law not in the Torah but held to have been given by God to Moses.
(in Islam) a saying or act ascribed to the Prophet but not recorded in the Koran.


Tradition must not replace the Essence of the faith. Our faith must not be based on tradition, but the other way around. MHI emphasizes Jama'at to keep their tradition, so the diversity and plurality is preserved. Similar to knoja jama'at, other jama'ats from other corners of the world have other traditions. Most traditions are cultural than anything else. It's valuable to keep tradition, but our faith must not be formulated [or re-formulated] based on those traditions. Tradition must remain tradition, and must not replace the faith and doctrine of faith.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tradition must not replace the Essence of the faith. Our faith must not be based on tradition, but the other way around.


Little hard to understand but I hope at least you are not emphasizing that only Central Asian tradition is the right one and others are wrong!!
Now as long as changing in ginans are concern I think MHI has never insisted to make changes in ginans.

So there is no question arise to changing in any ginans. [b] whatever changes has been made so far is not exactly and accordingly as per the resolution passed in Paris conference.
Only one Association has made changes in ginans while others associations opted not make changes!


Last edited by agakhani on Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
Tradition must not replace the Essence of the faith. Our faith must not be based on tradition, but the other way around. MHI emphasizes Jama'at to keep their tradition, so the diversity and plurality is preserved. Similar to knoja jama'at, other jama'ats from other corners of the world have other traditions. Most traditions are cultural than anything else. It's valuable to keep tradition, but our faith must not be formulated [or re-formulated] based on those traditions. Tradition must remain tradition, and must not replace the faith and doctrine of faith.
When we talk of Ginans as a tradition than obviously we are implying in the sense of theology. Due you think the Imam would emphasize the need to preserve them from generations to generations and from wherever if it was merely custom or cultural based? Or wouldn't there be something more substantial in them? Don't we have Farmans which state that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an? I hope you read the Farman I quoted.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
When we talk of Ginans as a tradition than obviously we are implying in the sense of theology. Due you think the Imam would emphasize the need to preserve them from generations to generations and from wherever if it was merely custom or cultural based? Or wouldn't there be something more substantial in them? Don't we have Farmans which state that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an? I hope you read the Farman I quoted.


How do you obviously know? Did Imam tell you that, in person? or you just assumed?

When one believes that Qur'an is corrupt, tampered and old/outdated, how come he believes that ginans are tafsir of Qur'an? Seems contradictory, doesn't it?
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
When we talk of Ginans as a tradition than obviously we are implying in the sense of theology. Due you think the Imam would emphasize the need to preserve them from generations to generations and from wherever if it was merely custom or cultural based? Or wouldn't there be something more substantial in them? Don't we have Farmans which state that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an? I hope you read the Farman I quoted.


How do you obviously know? Did Imam tell you that, in person? or you just assumed?

When one believes that Qur'an is corrupt, tampered and old/outdated, how come he believes that ginans are tafsir of Qur'an? Seems contradictory, doesn't it?


Ginans are the tafseer of REAL QURAN icon_rolleyes.gif

The statement of corrupt, tampered Usmani Quran remains rock solid .
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:


Ginans are the tafseer of REAL QURAN icon_rolleyes.gif

The statement of corrupt, tampered Usmani Quran remains rock solid .


Then why do you recite the Du'a which has ayats from the 'Not real Qur'an'??? Assuming you do recite Du'a.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then why do you recite the Du'a which has ayats from the 'Not real Qur'an'??? Assuming you do recite Du'a.


Since above question has been asked to Shinan but the same question you had also asked me previously so I am replying you even though it is not address to me directly!

Quran has been tampered but not the whole qurans!!! as per my understanding and study! I think those ayas has been tampered or changed which were addressed directly to H. Ali (s.a.) with a special intention and purpose!!

Now back to your question the ayas from Ismaili current dua!

1. The ayas which Ismailis reciting in their regular du'a seems authentic and unchanged.
2, Those ayas has been chosen by MSM, if that ayas were have also altered then it would not had been chosen in our dua.
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kmaherali"]
nuseri wrote:
To the team 'Pranalika":Ya Ali Madad.

For a while I will take my self as confused. (It is one word reply of an escapist).
I wish the well read members to clear my confusion.


"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964

Below is the definition of tradition:
Theology
a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular.

I hope that clears your confusion.


Its a really powerful farman and i dont see the need for the farmaan to be explained any further. The Imam does not mention that the ginans are for khojas only. It is my belief that they are one of the sources that we could understand the esoteric aspects of our faith. As ive mentioned before continual argument about the immense importance of the ginans over what qadi Numan wrote or any other fatimid theologians wrote in light of farmans and other documents is intellectual dishonesty. The faman is pretty self explanatory.

I also had discussions about the changes in ginans with a family member. According to her the blame lied solely with Kamaluddin. However the jamaat in Pakistan was pretty POed to the point where there were two ginan classes. One by Kamaluddin and one by Jaffer Sadiq. Eventually the according to the family member most of the changes had to be reverted.

I also discussions with another family member who is from the northern areas of Pakistan and has primarily studied "farsi" ginans or qasidas. Even for them the status of Imam matches that of khoja jamat.
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad:
I wish to from well read scholars.In last 57 years how many times did MHI
USE THE WORD ginan/qasida in farmans and how many time he use the word Ibadat/bandagi.

if an Imam would have made farman 400 years back observing the secular education n spiritual status of khojas then ,and the possibly two farmans a month for that SYLLABUS was warranted.

If it is once in 19 years now from MHI, A STUDY TO that effect is needed.
If one observes the ratio of farmans of Ibadat n khidmat visavis on Ginans.
the writing is on the wall what MHI wants today and not totally what past imams desired then.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
How do you obviously know? Did Imam tell you that, in person? or you just assumed?
Ginans are intimately connected to Ismaili ritual just as Du'a and Farmans are, so from that point of view it is obvious about its theological significance. Also the Imam has equated Ginans to his Farmans.
tret wrote:

When one believes that Qur'an is corrupt, tampered and old/outdated, how come he believes that ginans are tafsir of Qur'an? Seems contradictory, doesn't it?
Yes I believe that the Qur'an was tampered with given the human/political aspect of it's compilation. I have never implied therefore that it is outdated and old. It is always alive like any Divinely inspired art/tradition subject to reinterpretation.It is not contradictory, on the contrary because it was tampered with the importance of the Divinely appointed interpretor becomes even more pronounced. Hence the importance of authoritative tafsir/ta'wil without which Qur'an has limited significance in our tariqah.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:

If one observes the ratio of farmans of Ibadat n khidmat visavis on Ginans.
the writing is on the wall what MHI wants today and not totally what past imams desired then.
Recitation of Ginans and Qasidas are aspects of Ibadat as per Farman below.

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Kmaherali: Ya Ali madad.
A very valuable posting made by you on farman on inaugural of golden jubilee.He uses the word acknowledge to all our lavish spread of meal( as used as example).
But what he accept more and reward in spiritual life is said in other specific farmans.
Here he mentions of it use,help in daily material life and facing difficulties( muskil ashan).
Well keep it going.what is definition of traditions n Tariqa in IIS syllabus?

BTW ,All Jamatkhanas in India TODAY evening are celebrating with Sagdidham the visit of Noorani family to India n celebrate the award given to MHI.
I will eat one samosa (starters) each on behalf of each haqiqati member in this forum n have less of biryani (main course) n halwa (dessert).Can try to parcel dahi cachumber (salad) to one shariati in Boston.

This visit also gives the world a grand introduction of Prince Aly Mohammed as his companion.

HOWE HOWE AAJ EH RAAJ MUBARAK HOWE
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:

To Kmaherali: Ya Ali madad.
A very valuable posting made by you on farman on inaugural of golden jubilee.....
Well keep it going.what is definition of traditions n Tariqa in IIS syllabus?
Ya Ali Madad Nuseri,
The Farman is actually the excerpt from the completion of the GJ on Dec 13 2008. The definition of traditions in our tariqah would be: trasmission or perpetuation of our outlook of life, attitudes, beliefs, values, customs, practices and approches to faith.
Some of the statements in the Oct 1988 Farman in this regard:

"Our Jamat has a living Imam and it is our tradition, it is our belief, that it is the Imam of the Time that gives guidance and direction in masters concerning the Tariqah.I wish it therefore to be well understood that I will continue to give guidance on matters concerning the Tariqah, that I will give you the direction which I believe is the direction which you should follow and that in looking at the Jamat around the world, I will be conscious of differences of tradition and I will note them. I will reflect about them. I will look at them with love and affection."

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions."
nuseri wrote:

BTW ,All Jamatkhanas in India TODAY evening are celebrating with Sagdidham the visit of Noorani family to India n celebrate the award given to MHI.
I will eat one samosa (starters) each on behalf of each haqiqati member in this forum n have less of biryani (main course) n halwa (dessert).Can try to parcel dahi cachumber (salad) to one shariati in Boston.

This visit also gives the world a grand introduction of Prince Aly Mohammed as his companion.

HOWE HOWE AAJ EH RAAJ MUBARAK HOWE
Mubarakis to you on this occasion! A great honour to the Imam and the Jamat. Also great news about AKTC involvement in the Taj Mahal restoration. I hope you enjoy(ed) yourself.

I would caution you not to read too much on Prince Aly Muhammed's appearance (which was very pleasant to witness).
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Kmaherali :Ya Ali Madad.

I did celebarated the sagdidham on 08 April.

surprisingly there were no starters but very delicious kulfi falooda as dessert.
I had a go at it and took many portions and remembering all faithful forum members.

I must thank you for posting the extract of landmark golden jubilee farman.I have used that extract to befitting the topic elsewhere.


Secondly I noted that you have in 12 years heavily depended of printed material or memory of what was heard by you that now used the word 'Ya Ali Madad".so I assume that you also wish to seek help from ALI to reply your postings .Remember Prophet used these word to seek real help from ALI n not to greet those around Him.
So the law of limitation is catching upon you.

I had asked for numbers of farmans in quantity n not asked the content per se? Please reply to that effect.

Does IIS teaches one HOW TO READ IMAM'S FARMAN n understand on what he really mean to get the message across?.

If brand name Ali+lah=Allah speaks in parables in Quran ,IT WOULD BE NATURAL that ALI of the time speaks discreetly to deeply understand the farmans /ayats.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Observation and Comments on our Modern Ginanic Literature

Follow-up to Paris Conference 1975. The 1980 Nairobi Ismailia Association International Review Meeting.

This is the paper presented at the Ismailia Association International Review Meeting in Nairobi, Kenya on 1980 by the Ismailia Association for Canada. The paper explains how some articles of the report by Rupani of the Paris Conference 1975 have created some mis-representations and how some Ginans books printed by the Ismailia Association for Pakistan were in fact against the decisions and the spirit of what Our beloved Imam said at the Paris Conference.

The report is endorsed by President Amirali P. Haji of the Ismailia Association for Canada who attended the Conference in Paris in 1975.

The complete Report is attached here in PDF format.

The second part, Appendix 1, Review Sheets has been added as the scans are now completed. - the second part provides a comparative analysis and comments on some major changes that have taken places in Ginan books published after the Paris Conference 1975 by Ismailia Association for Pakistan (Though Pakistan has not been named specifically) outside the directives of the Imam.

Go to the link below to download all files.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/31647
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin YAM

The report that you posted was detailed and raised several questions in my mind. In Paris conference notes by Rupani, it is mentioned that Ginans of Cat C would be collected for research but not modified. However the replies from Ismaili association of Canada suggest that there was a resolution to modify Ginans of Cat C and B.

Also it appears that the is no one clearly defined what Hindu Elements are. since according to MSMS farman (paraphrased) mentioned in the report that Pir Sadardin has narrated and composed Holy Ginans out of the interpretation of the Holy Quran and he could equate every verse of the Ginan to the ayat of the Quran.

If the above mentioned farman to me clearly suggests that there are no hindu elements in the Quran. which begs question why change them?
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Admin I was awaiting this for long time. you sure fulfilled your promise. Thanks again, this is a Golden treasure for a Ginanic lover like me!

Quote:
If the above mentioned farman to me clearly suggests that there are no hindu elements in the Quran. which begs question why change them?


Basically there were no need to make changes in ginans and, there is no need to change it even right now! it is a just a matter of languages but any how one Association went one step ahead and changed it in under the shelter of Paris Conference 1975 and Hindu elements ; while other Associations remain quiet and unchanged.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is clear that there are no Hindu elements in the Ginans. The Ginans never preached Hinduism. There are indian vocabulary in the Ginans. Obviously the vocabulary could not be Russian or Chinese or Arabic when talking to Indian people in those time.

In the same way prophet Muhammad confirmed some part of the Jewish and Christian beliefs as been part of the eternal truth though not in Arabic, the Ginans also have confirmed that SOME parts of Hinduism is also part of the same universal truth.

This also explains why many of the basic values of humanity are common to each and every faith. This is because the divine message comes from the same source and Allah is not limited in whom to send his message and to whom to send his messengers.

Once this basic premise is accepted, understanding any religion becomes very easy.
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
It is clear that there are no Hindu elements in the Ginans. The Ginans never preached Hinduism. There are indian vocabulary in the Ginans. Obviously the vocabulary could not be Russian or Chinese or Arabic when talking to Indian people in those time.

In the same way prophet Muhammad confirmed some part of the Jewish and Christian beliefs as been part of the eternal truth though not in Arabic, the Ginans also have confirmed that SOME parts of Hinduism is also part of the same universal truth.

This also explains why many of the basic values of humanity are common to each and every faith. This is because the divine message comes from the same source and Allah is not limited in whom to send his message and to whom to send his messengers.


Reply by Mazhar,

I am lost in the wilderness of this post. You wrote there are no Hindu elements in Ginans. Than what is Das avtars, Kachh.muchh, korenmb, Pandvas, Drupadhi, Tara Rani, Haresh chandra, names of Hindu gods etc.
Hinduism is totally different religion in comparison to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Hazar Imam has not included, Maha Bharata, Ramayan, Gita, Puranas or Vedas with the books of Ahl ul Kitab in His Farmans. Main question is of doctrines, philosophy, and basic tenets of Islam.
The basic common values of humanity are because of laws of nature and they are universal, whether you believe in God or not.
Thanx, atleast you wrote ALLAH IS NOT LIMITED.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
Reply by Mazhar,

I am lost in the wilderness of this post. You wrote there are no Hindu elements in Ginans. Than what is Das avtars, Kachh.muchh, korenmb, Pandvas, Drupadhi, Tara Rani, Haresh chandra, names of Hindu gods etc.
Hinduism is totally different religion in comparison to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Hazar Imam has not included, Maha Bharata, Ramayan, Gita, Puranas or Vedas with the books of Ahl ul Kitab in His Farmans. Main question is of doctrines, philosophy, and basic tenets of Islam.
The basic common values of humanity are because of laws of nature and they are universal, whether you believe in God or not.
Thanx, atleast you wrote ALLAH IS NOT LIMITED.
For Das avtars I will recommend you read the thread below, then you will know their real meaning in Satpanth tradition,

The DARSHAN OF DAS AVTAAR
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=344

What is wrong with the names Pandavs, Drupadi, Harish Chandra (the Light of God). Just because they are names in an Indian language does not make them un-Islamic.

In his Memoirs MSMS recognises other Prophets and their messages so what is wrong with their scriptures? The Hindu religion was derived from the pure Godhead just as Christianity and Judaism, but they all got corrupted.

"Then what need was there for a Divine revelation to Mohammed ?

The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh."

So the Imam is considering Hinduism in the same manner as he is considering Judaism and Christianity - all of them having been corrupted.
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
In our tariqa ,What Imam feels n oreder in final binding for us.
The trend of presentation papers n observation are from those who may have had narrow dimension of our faith or ever being blessed baatin upon them.
I am not against Ginans but volume of unwarranted ones.
Many acts are taken by the board with direct orders from MHI.
Imam knows the current period n future period on what he desires from Momins.
admin few question for you (no emotions or passion please)
1.How many ginan the full content you know by heart( not reading it)
and able to recite at one go.

2.if a scholar has a test say at the age of 15 and ginans being one of the subjects along with dua,tasbih,ibaadat,qasida.
if a question paper is of 90 minutes than if ginan carries 20 marks out of 100. How many ginan should a scholars know by heart to answer that section.? what is a capabilty of a human mind to store the data.
Remeber the same scholars has to study for his livehood the secular subject of the school.

if the mandate of the Ginan was/is to believe in ALI as god and introduce him/her to imam of the time,who would take over with farmans for the period.
if a blessed haqiqati status is achieved by a Momin out of ginans ,should he/she still keep digging into it till death or move upward still for farmans ,khidmat, ibaadat.

In the past 1400/700 years back people were mainly illiterate n had ample of time then.
Time changes so does the form n time changes to adapt it.

I can present a well researched paper that in year 2015,(40 year gone from 1975) that only 50% of present in circulation of quality n rich in spirituality is needed for us ismailis to achieve the mandate set out from it.

Think as an educated mind n time available by a person to fulfill his spiritual obligations?
ALI precisely knows that on how much a person should praise him,seek his grace, progress his soul and help humanity and lead a quality life for family as well.

The basics of scholars here is that mostly try less to understand ,know and communicate in baatin with ALI and more interested what is written on ALI by third persons n doctrines unrelated to our daily life of today times.

ALI NEED OVER MANY MANY THUOSANDS QUALITATIVE KHIDMATGARS for humanity thru his umbrella N MAY BE NEED FEW ACADEMICS N GINAN SCHOLARS to serve his purpose.
see where is the vacancy n where a person can stay unemployed n frustrated.

SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAFI HAI.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the past 1400/700 years back people were mainly illiterate n had ample of time then. Time changes so does the form n time changes to adapt it.


Time changes and we still have as many illiterate people.

Completely useless post. What does it bring to posterity? Nothing. So why waste time?

When you post anything, please think over; "Is my post going to bring any kind of knowledge to future generations?" If not, please do not feel obliged to post.

Many time one sees a post and feels the urge to reply but why do it? there should be some purpose, something of value!

This applies to all. it is a general non-discriminatory statement.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:

if the mandate of the Ginan was/is to believe in ALI as god and introduce him/her to imam of the time,who would take over with farmans for the period.
if a blessed haqiqati status is achieved by a Momin out of ginans ,should he/she still keep digging into it till death or move upward still for farmans ,khidmat, ibaadat.

In the past 1400/700 years back people were mainly illiterate n had ample of time then.
Time changes so does the form n time changes to adapt it.


The mandate of the Ginans was not simply to introduce Imamat. It was to provide guidance and wisdom to nurture the soul. Ginans by definition is contemplative knowledge and it provides the necessay 'food' for spiritual elevation. The more a person progresses on the path, the deeper will his understanding of the Ginans. It is not just one level of knowledge, there are multiple levels of meaniing and wisdom in the Ginans. So it is not correct to say that as one progresses in Ibadat, Ginans are not relevant.

MSMS has said that Ginans and Farmans are equal and that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an.

For this kind of knowledge you always have to create time, whether it is the past or the present.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Team pranalika:: I had asked specific questions to admin now open to others.

ai in 2015 does one wishes to dumped or enforced to 1000 ginans or
numbers what one's absorption n memory to remember n understand.
ginan are not directly farmans but deep understanding of it is.

I need specific answer n not an extract of unrelated farman as an escapist from basic question asked.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I understand your question right then my answer is:

Yes, I would like to have all available 600 ginans and even more if possible!, and these ginans should be recites in all JK in the world with its original texts!!! I will love to have those ginans from Khojki, Gujarati and Punjabi which are never published before these ginans should also be published and distributed among jamats all over the world !
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Farmans are clear, The Farmans say that the ginans are to be kept for children yet to be born and from generations to generations.

I think the children of the future will have an intelligence more developed than those of our time (obviously) and they will be better positioned to understand the depth of the ginans.

I agree that we need to find more Ginans. In fact we are working in finding those unpublished ones that Mukhi Lalji Devraj was referring to and that unfortunately he could not publish because he died so soon. I recall we have found 26 so far but will unearth many many more in the coming years Inshallah.

If anyone comes across old handwritten Khojki manuscript, please contact us on heritage@ismaili.net as we know how to preserve them and also how to preserve their contents. Thank you.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad:
I have not asked i.e money on how much million dollars one wish to have but is reality of one has.
My specific questions is what is each one of you indivual capaity of knowing ginan by heart n able to recite without any help.( like dua/tasbih).
Number in specific.
It seem most haqiqati members wishes to undermine n dis regard ibaadat,khidmat n aashique to move toward as a marfati momin where words are limited but actions are aloud.
They only wish to dig and relish based on their cleverness and comfort zone
to dig deep n drown into data of 1400/1000/700 years old data n manuscript.
If one wishes to live n die as haqiqati scholars( zahir category),It is their wish.I assume they value farman of living Imam less than the data telling about Imam from medivial ages.
may God bless your efforts.
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