Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 30, 31, 32  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked you cannot edit posts or make replies    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Doctrines
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
"You must turn your hearts and intentions towards Sufism."](Farman, Usul-e-Din, 1899)
Sorry I cannot edit the post. The exact translation is:
"I know that if you follow the path of faith (deen) truthfully, you will be able to reach the peak. It is when you have your heart (deel) and your mind in Sufism that you can get there."
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
mahebubchatur



Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:35 am    Post subject: What Imam says... Reply with quote

The constitution is a Farmans inwhich His Highness the Aga Khan as Imam confirms his role and authority.

The Ismaili constitution is a Farman as defined by Hazar Imam in the constitution. (see para 2e). Hazar Imam also confirms Imams’ DIVINE AUTHORITY “...to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids*..”
a. Talim is to impart knowledge, interpretation and understanding of the final message of Allah to mankind (Quran). Talim is defined by Hazar Imam in the constitution as “Teaching”)
b. Tawil is to impart knowledge and understanding of the inner meaning of the Quran Ta’wil is defined by the Institute of Ismaili Studies as - “The elucidation of the inner or esoteric meaning, batin , from the literal wording or apparent meaning of a text, ritual or religious prescription.” Tawil is defined by Hazar Imam in the constitution as “Interpretation”
I. The Quran is the final message of Allah for all mankind.
1. Therefore the continuity of Tawil and Talim of the final message is also for all mankind.
II. Imams continues the Tawil and Talim, in Farmans.
1. A Farman is defined by Hazar Imam in the constitution as "Any pronouncement, direction, order or ruling made or given by Mawlana Hazar Imam.”
a. Farmans made or given by Imam are for Din and also for Dunya.
b. Farmans made and given by Imam are esoteric (Zahir) and exoteric (Batin)
c. Farmans made or given by Imam are also for Material and for spiritual benefit of Murids- beleivers
d. Farmans made or given by Imam include ( the Ismaili constitution, governance, Mehmanis, Ginans, letters, speeches, statements, announcements, talikas, writings, interviews, and any and all directions given by Hazar Imam ( in all forms without limitations). Hidayah is defined in the constitution by Hazar Imam as “guidance from Imams of the time”)
e. Farman is defined by Hazar Imam as “Any pronouncement, direction, order or ruling made or given by Mawlana Hazar Imam.”
III. The very essence of Ismailism is a living Imam to give andto continue the guidance and interpreattion of the Quran through Farmans (Imam gives the Tawil and Talim of Allah’s final message – The Quran )
1. Ismailism cannot exist without Farmans and Imams of the time.
2. Imam gives guidance and Imams do not block guidance they have given
IV. Continuity of the tawil and talim of the Quran is by divine authority and additionally Imam says in the constitution Imam is also there to “..Guide the murids..”.
V. Every murid is equal in the eyes of Imam. Imams Tawil and Talim of the Quran is therefore for all Murids. “….you should remember that as far as I am concerned, every spiritual child is equal to every other spiritual child and it does not matter whether you are the President of the Council or whether you are a little tiny child in school. For me every spiritual child is equal,.” (farman)
a. Therefore Farmans and the constitution are made by Imam for, and to be given to all murids for them to continue to get and benefit from the Tawil and the Talim of the final message of Allah (Quran), materially and spiritually.
b. *Murid are defined by Imam as “Follower” who has given allegiance (Bayah), to Imam of the time.

Hazar Imam says in the constitution that the constituion must be read with Farmans. The constitution is a public document
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5812

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
"You must turn your hearts and intentions towards Sufism."](Farman, Usul-e-Din, 1899)
Sorry I cannot edit the post. The exact translation is:
"I know that if you follow the path of faith (deen) truthfully, you will be able to reach the peak. It is when you have your heart (deel) and your mind in Sufism that you can get there."


I think the proper translation would be "your mind in Mysticism".

The translator used "Sufism" because that is how the word appeared in Urdu but the sense in the common language (no scholars language) in India/Pakistan for the use of word "Sufi" is "mysticism". Of course this is my understanding.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

Thanks for pointing out the subtle differences between Sufism and Ismailism. However from the practical point of view there seems to be very little difference.


No, the difference is not subtle and even from practical point of view it's not the same. Like I said, sure there are principals that overlaps, such as 'free personal inquiry', for example. However, Ismailism and Sufism are two distinct school of thoughts.

- Sufism follows the speculative philosophy and doesn't adhere to the notion of Imamate, unlike Ismailis. That is one of the principal and fundamental differences that sets apart sufism from Ismailism. There are other differences between the concept of Taw'hid and Taqarrub [seeking closeness].

- Ismailism, on the contrary adhere the doctrine of Ta'lim. At some point in history, even Ismailies were referred as Ta'limian. Ismailis firmly believe in the Imamate and the presence of the Imam-e-Zaman at each era as Divine authoritative instructor. Ismailis believe in the teachings of the Imam-e-Zaman and believe the divine authorities of the Prophet have been transferred to Mauwla Ali as our first Imam, and shall continue till day of judgement.


These are the principal differences between the two. I am not saying we can not/should not learn about concepts of sufism; I am saying we should not equate Ismailism with sufism.


When Mauwlana Rumi attained the higher level, it was purely because he met Shams Tabriz. Shams was the intercessor/intermediary for Mauwlana through whom he realized the Divine and knew himself. Ismailies already have an intercessor and intermediary through whom we can potentially become perfect and realize God.

I think these are enough differences that we can conclude Ismailism is not sufism.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
You just have to use your intellect


BTW, sufism rejects the concept of Intellect contrary to Ismailism which has the highest status for Intellect. the Intellect is the light of The Soul. Just one more difference between sufism and Ismailism.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:


mazhar wrote:

Kmaherali in your same posting you have mentioned, I quote," If Mansoor could elevate him self and become one with ALLAH, don't you think that the Imam whom we consider pure in our Du'a would not be one with ALLAH as well" Sir, you have taken totally U turn. Being ALLAH and merge with ALLAH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
You are talking about two different entities to merge with each other. One is at highest level beyond imagination and other try to elevate and merge. Mansoor said unal haqq but Imam has not.
The definition of merge is: "combine or cause to combine to form a single entity." You become ONE and not separate.


kmaherali & mazhar -
Please refer to my reply on [13 Jan 2015 07:34 am]. we must understand when we say 'identified by' and 'become one with'.
Remember, disciple(s) never becomes The Master!

in other words, the only reason why we see things/objects during the day, is because the sun is out, shining light upon objects. When the sun sets down and there's no light, the objects becomes invisible. This doesn't mean that the objects don't need light to be perceived by the agent. The objects are visible, so long as the light is shining upon them.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
regarding sufism,what Imam has said is 101% right and a non/low faith ismaili like tret tell that ismailism is not sufism is 80% percent rubbish.
he himseLf lacks faith in MHI TO THE DESIRED LEVEL.
I explained that is reaching out to god out of heart/soul and not by reading.
because he is paid by IIS, he think one can reach god by reading n writing
in fancy english.

as for tawhid .It is feeling of oneness n experience as God by a person,he doe not become GOD.
In case of mansoor ,he trumpeted openly,had he had known Imam of the time then ,he would said I am Allah, as i have explianed earlier that the word allah does implies tawhid.
Allah word is a brand name and signature name in quran of ALI.
at oneness level with ALI,one ceases to exist his entity become faana
(laa=nothing) as exist n identifies himself in ALI/GOD.
so the combination of the word become Ali+Lah=allah.
so at stage the soul is controled by ALI,so It was destination act by him
because act of mind does want to be get killed for invalid reasons.
prophet n pir also attained tawhid,they kept queit and started singing in praise of Ali like pirs n Dais.
they can taken as one of the best example of Sufism.
In farman one is told to have faith a as mansoor anal haq.
but told to become like pir n dai n even like prophet jesus.

till the time of zahurat ,ALI may not say directly he is god in zahir crowd.
it will come from sufi n bhagats to hint that not low faith scholars.
ALI used used prophets ,nuseri pir n dai and even in farman some jamati member with a question to pass out n conclude the truth.
only near Zahurat word can be seen in sermon of Imam alaizikr salaam
on qiyat ul Qiyamat.
wher he claim to be God as first person message.
he start his sermon with address to human ,jinn n angels,This thing
IS DONE only BY HIS BRAND name 'Allah' in Quran.
simple thing many lack faith in imam and getting in to fuel of Baatin
ibadaat,aashique n khidmat.to get desisired blessing n status from him.
reading from speech,interview etc like clever person reflect nothing.
he has may be not honored educated person ( with non baatin cleverness) to be like them in ANY farmans.
I personally use both good n impolite strategy to show truth of ALI
logically n not out of whims,fantasy n impulse.
reading N UNDERSTANDING by mind level end at 5 th level of lntellect (zahir)while sufism (baatin) starts at sixth going up to seventh level (noorani).
Higher phase of intellect/Sufism is PART N PARCEL OF ISMAILI TARIQA N ITS HALLMARK.
follow the original 'ALI' or many of his brand names, popular being like
Allah,Holy father,Krishna,Buddha+ 100 MORE BRAND NAMES.
He is the same but your call is different.
The call nearest to HIS/ALI heart ( not ears) get response.
so your time stars now
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Chatur ji,
Looks like you are an attorney.Excellent explaination of authority, legality,
and terminologies of our Ismaili constitution.
Mazhar.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear kmaherali,
With reference to your Jan 13th,2015 posting, you wrote," There is nothing blasphemous about it. It is a simple logical deduction. You just have to use your intellect."
I think we don' t use our intellect when there is Farmaan, we just obey. If you look at the first 3 ayats of Surah Naas, it reads,Qul au'uzu bi Rabbin Naas, Malikin Naas, Illaahin Naas. There isn' t any word Imam used there, so what are you trying to deduce from ALLAH. We cann't compare ALLAH WITH ANY THING IN UNIVERSE.Laisa bi misli shai. He is beyond comprehension.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Admin"][quote="kmaherali"]
kmaherali wrote:
I think the proper translation would be "your mind in Mysticism".

The translator used "Sufism" because that is how the word appeared in Urdu but the sense in the common language (no scholars language) in India/Pakistan for the use of word "Sufi" is "mysticism". Of course this is my understanding.
Sufism by definition is the mysticism or esoterism of Islam. So there is no difference. Infact the translation that is rarely read out also mentions: Sufism i.e mysticism.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
I think we don' t use our intellect when there is Farmaan, we just obey. If you look at the first 3 ayats of Surah Naas, it reads,Qul au'uzu bi Rabbin Naas, Malikin Naas, Illaahin Naas. There isn' t any word Imam used there, so what are you trying to deduce from ALLAH. We cann't compare ALLAH WITH ANY THING IN UNIVERSE.Laisa bi misli shai. He is beyond comprehension.
In his Farman: Farman, Usul-e-Din, 1899, MSMS said: "Do not think that I have made Farmans for nothing. Read, listen and think over My Farmans." But MHI who is the authoritative interpreter in our tariqah says that he is Malikin Naas. Of course when we refer to the Imam, we are talking about his essence and not the body. So if he is one of the three, what can we deduce about the others. In our Tariqah we do not literarily follow the Qu'ran. We try to derive the meaning according to our interpretation.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
BTW, sufism rejects the concept of Intellect contrary to Ismailism which has the highest status for Intellect. the Intellect is the light of The Soul. Just one more difference between sufism and Ismailism.
MHI has said:

"Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies."( MHI's Message to The International Islamic Conference, Amman, Jordan, 4th - 6th July, 2005)

Hence intellect has a major role in Sufism.

In his Farman MHI has said:

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali."(Dar es Salaam, Oct 6, 1988)

If we compare the Sufi principles in the Amman statement with the extract of the Farman above, it appears that the only difference between Sufism and Ismailism from the practical point of view is the nature of the Mursheed. Everything else is similar, else why would MSMS emphasize it in his Farman?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
[kmaherali & mazhar -
Please refer to my reply on [13 Jan 2015 07:34 am]. we must understand when we say 'identified by' and 'become one with'.
Remember, disciple(s) never becomes The Master!

I am sorry I could not follow your sunlight analogy. MSMS in his Farman indicated that we must aim for Fanna fi Allah. To me it means total annihilation in God. Nothing of the self remains. One beocmes God.

Like a drop becoming an ocean.

In our Ginans we say:

ejee hamtam preet ba(n)dhaanneeyaa(n), ane hamtam bolyaa bol
hamtam donu(n) saa(n)hiyaa ek hay
saa(n)hiyaa hamsu(n) paddadaa khol...........................4

I and You (Imam) are bound by love, and I and You have given each other a word (promise). I and You Lord are one, Lord open the curtain (veil) for me. (so that I may have Your Vision).

Hence it is possible for the identities of the mureed and the Murshid to merge into one. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this one.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: What Imam says... Reply with quote

mahebubchatur wrote:
The constitution is a Farmans inwhich His Highness the Aga Khan as Imam confirms his role and authority.

The Ismaili constitution is a Farman as defined by Hazar Imam in the constitution. (see para 2e).
I could not find it in the constitution at: http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.html , can you clarify or provide reference from the new constitution.
mahebubchatur wrote:
a. Farmans made or given by Imam are for Din and also for Dunya.
b. Farmans made and given by Imam are esoteric (Zahir) and exoteric (Batin)
c. Farmans made or given by Imam are also for Material and for spiritual benefit of Murids- beleivers
d. Farmans made or given by Imam include ( the Ismaili constitution, governance, Mehmanis, Ginans, letters, speeches, statements, announcements, talikas, writings, interviews, and any and all directions given by Hazar Imam ( in all forms without limitations). Hidayah is defined in the constitution by Hazar Imam as “guidance from Imams of the time”)
e. Farman is defined by Hazar Imam as “Any pronouncement, direction, order or ruling made or given by Mawlana Hazar Imam.”
Are the above statements part of the constitution? I could not find them. Thanks
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: What Imam says... Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

MHI has said:

"Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies."( MHI's Message to The International Islamic Conference, Amman, Jordan, 4th - 6th July, 2005)

Hence intellect has a major role in Sufism.

read carefully MHI relates the [b]"personal search"[/] aspect of sufism with our tariqa. other elements are ours, such as balance between zahir and batin, and leadership of heredity Imam. so is the Intellect.


["quote="kmaherali]
In his Farman MHI has said:

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali."(Dar es Salaam, Oct 6, 1988)

If we compare the Sufi principles in the Amman statement with the extract of the Farman above, it appears that the only difference between Sufism and Ismailism from the practical point of view is the nature of the Mursheed. Everything else is similar, else why would MSMS emphasize it in his Farman?
[/quote]
the farmaan and the statement of MHI in Amaan conference doesn't have the same context and relation at all in regards to your conclusion, if you use your intellect. of course I agree that our tariqa puts emphasis on intellectual growth and The Intellect has the highest status in the spiritual realm according to our tariqa. But sufism doesn't agree with that.

coming back to the difference that you agree upon. The Murshid [kamil].

so, according to you, The Imam is God. do you agree?

according to yo,u our tariqa is sufism. do you agree?

according to you, the concept of Murshid [kamil] is different. In other words in Ismaili The Imam of the time is the Murshid Kamil [which I agree]. On the contrary in sufism they pick and choose their "murshid".

so if you agree with all these points, then in sufism every murshid is a god so how many god is there for them? There's something that doesn't add up.

Again, I wanna clarify: there are principals that we share with sufism; but our tariqa is not entirely sufism. It's better.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: What Imam says... Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

MHI has said:

"Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies."( MHI's Message to The International Islamic Conference, Amman, Jordan, 4th - 6th July, 2005)

Hence intellect has a major role in Sufism.

read carefully MHI relates the [b]"personal search"[/] aspect of sufism with our tariqa. other elements are ours, such as balance between zahir and batin, and leadership of heredity Imam. so is the Intellect.


kmaherali wrote:

In his Farman MHI has said:

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali."(Dar es Salaam, Oct 6, 1988)

If we compare the Sufi principles in the Amman statement with the extract of the Farman above, it appears that the only difference between Sufism and Ismailism from the practical point of view is the nature of the Mursheed. Everything else is similar, else why would MSMS emphasize it in his Farman?

the farmaan and the statement of MHI in Amaan conference doesn't have the same context and relation at all in regards to your conclusion, if you use your intellect. of course I agree that our tariqa puts emphasis on intellectual growth and The Intellect has the highest status in the spiritual realm according to our tariqa. But sufism doesn't agree with that.

coming back to the difference that you agree upon. The Murshid [kamil].

so, according to you, The Imam is God. do you agree?

according to yo,u our tariqa is sufism. do you agree?

according to you, the concept of Murshid [kamil] is different. In other words in Ismaili The Imam of the time is the Murshid Kamil [which I agree]. On the contrary in sufism they pick and choose their "murshid".

so if you agree with all these points, then in sufism every murshid is a god so how many god is there for them? There's something that doesn't add up.

Again, I wanna clarify: there are principals that we share with sufism; but our tariqa is not entirely sufism. It's better.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: What Imam says... Reply with quote

[quote="tret"][quote="kmaherali"]
read carefully MHI relates the "personal search"[/] aspect of sufism with our tariqa. other elements are ours, such as balance between zahir and batin, and leadership of heredity Imam. so is the Intellect./quote]OK it appears there is a difference of interpretation of the statement. However personal search itself involves the use of intellect. Consider the following extract of the Usul-e-Din Farman made by MSMS about personal search.

"When you have a spare moment, you should [b]think
: “Who is the Creator? What is the creation?” Have you ever had such thoughts? If one asks you: “Who are you?” Then you will say: “My father’s son;” rather, you will be able to go as far back as a few generations. A bit more intelligent one will reach back to Adam and then, that will be all.
You must think: “Where did Adam come from? Who sent Adam?” The man, who is a Sufi, will grasp this thought.

According to the Concise Enclopaedia of Islam, sufis divide the path into three movements: makhafah (the way of fear or purification), mahabah (the way of love or sacrifice and conforminty) and ma'rifah (the way of knowledge). Here knowledge is not mere mental kmowledge but identity the knower and the object of the knowing. So there is a huge component of intellect involved.
tret wrote:

so if you agree with all these points, then in sufism every murshid is a god so how many god is there for them? There's something that doesn't add up.

Again, I wanna clarify: there are principals that we share with sufism; but our tariqa is not entirely sufism. It's better.
You can have many self realized persons who may or may not be masters or musheeds of a tariqah . However there is only one master who is hereditory and that is the Imam. Of course in this regard it is better. I think this is also what MHI explained in one of his BUK Farmans.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

read carefully MHI relates the "personal search"[/] aspect of sufism with our tariqa. other elements are ours, such as balance between zahir and batin, and leadership of heredity Imam. so is the Intellect.
OK it appears there is a difference of interpretation of the statement. However personal search itself involves the use of intellect. Consider the following extract of the Usul-e-Din Farman made by MSMS about personal search.

"When you have a spare moment, you should [b]think
: “Who is the Creator? What is the creation?” Have you ever had such thoughts? If one asks you: “Who are you?” Then you will say: “My father’s son;” rather, you will be able to go as far back as a few generations. A bit more intelligent one will reach back to Adam and then, that will be all.
You must think: “Where did Adam come from? Who sent Adam?” The man, who is a Sufi, will grasp this thought.

According to the Concise Enclopaedia of Islam, sufis divide the path into three movements: makhafah (the way of fear or purification), mahabah (the way of love or sacrifice and conforminty) and ma'rifah (the way of knowledge). Here knowledge is not mere mental kmowledge but identity the knower and the object of the knowing. So there is a huge component of intellect involved.
tret wrote:

so if you agree with all these points, then in sufism every murshid is a god so how many god is there for them? There's something that doesn't add up.

Again, I wanna clarify: there are principals that we share with sufism; but our tariqa is not entirely sufism. It's better.
You can have many self realized persons who may or may not be masters or musheeds of a tariqah . However there is only one master who is hereditory and that is the Imam. Of course in this regard it is better. I think this is also what MHI explained in one of his BUK Farmans.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
You can have many self realized persons who may or may not be masters or musheeds of a tariqah . However there is only one master who is hereditory and that is the Imam. Of course in this regard it is better. I think this is also what MHI explained in one of his BUK Farmans.


You can have only one Murshid Kamil [Perfect Maaster] at any era which is the Imam-e-Zeman.

When you say "you can have many self-realized person who may or may not be murshit " that is exactly what I mean by speculative philosophy. In that case anyone can claim legitimately or not to be the murshid.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
You can have only one Murshid Kamil [Perfect Maaster] at any era which is the Imam-e-Zeman.

When you say "you can have many self-realized person who may or may not be murshit " that is exactly what I mean by speculative philosophy. In that case anyone can claim legitimately or not to be the murshid.
I would consider Hafiz, Rumi and others as Mursheed Kameels.

This is what MSMS says about Hafiz:

Then came Hafiz – by far the greatest singer of the soul of man. In him we can find all the strivings, all the sorrow, all the victories and joys, all the hopes and disappointments of each and every one of us. In him we find contact, direct and immediate, with the outer universe interpreted as an infinite reality of matter, as a mirror of an eternal spirit, or indeed (as Spinoza later said) an absolute existence of which matter and spirit alike are but two of infinite modes and facets. It is not for nothing that his "Divan" has become, throughout the East, the supreme fal nama (book of divination) of millions and millions far beyond the confines of Iran. In perplexity and sorrow, whatever the cause, whatever the standard of intellect or emotion, men throughout the Near East and India turn to Hafiz – from the Ganges to the Nile, from the Caspian to the Bay of Bengal – for comfort and solace. Incredible as it may seem to us, even in his lifetime his influence had reached Bengal, Central Asia, Kashmir, Arabia and Egypt.

http://www.amaana.org/sultweb/msmhafiz.htm

There can be many persons claiming to be mushids. It is upto the seeker to decide whether they are authentic or not...
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
I would consider Hafiz, Rumi and others as Mursheed Kameels.


No! You are wrong! Hafiz, Rumi and other men of truth are surely have reached to higher levels of self realization, one can not deny that; however, "Perfect Master" -- according to Ismaili doctrine and belief -- is solely the Imam of the Time.

Hafiz, Rumi, Hallahj, can be murshid, in relation to mustajeb [common man], in this realm of relativity; however, they are still not Perfect in relation to the Imam of the Time. Hence, Murshid-e-Kamil/Master of the Masters/Lord of the Lords/Pole of the worlds/Kingdom of God/The trustee of the God's treasure is reserved solely for the Imam of the Time -- again, this is from the Ismaili perspective. A non-Ismaili may not necessarily agree with that, which is fine with me.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn"t I wrote and addressed you earlier that Rumi, Sattar, Tusi, Khushru and your so called person were just a ordinary man they were not pirs and in your word Hujjat, to me if we compare them with ismali pirs, who has Noorani powers then they werr laces of the shoes of our great pirs.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad;
I have reading the post of both on Sufism on an intelligent tariqati and a wise haqiqati. Both are good can do much better.

I assume that they are products of IIS.
I wish thaaat you both unite n stand up now for your Alma mater.
What is the definition written in IIS syllabus and as said by faculty?

Many a times Alumni's reflect the faculty of an institution.
My simple definition would be:

Sufism is higher realm of Intellect.

A Sufi is a person who is a recipient of divine Intellect can be from any religion.

If you two are ready,I have stream of questions for IIS.

for a moment the forum members who are IIS alumni/faculty/student can consider me as a notional Education Inspector of ALI.

Are IIS graduates masters the art of copy pasting ( refined words would be as armchair research) with presentation of the same in refined and grammatically correct English?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19005

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

Hafiz, Rumi, Hallahj, can be murshid, in relation to mustajeb [common man], in this realm of relativity; however, they are still not Perfect in relation to the Imam of the Time. Hence, Murshid-e-Kamil/Master of the Masters/Lord of the Lords/Pole of the worlds/Kingdom of God/The trustee of the God's treasure is reserved solely for the Imam of the Time -- again, this is from the Ismaili perspective. A non-Ismaili may not necessarily agree with that, which is fine with me.

When a human being attains Fana Fi Allah, he attains the spiritual status of the Imam although he may not function as such. Hence from that perspective he is as perfect as the Imam from the practical point of view. It does not matter whether that status was inherited (Imamat) or whether that status was achieved through personal search. A drop becomes the Ocean. We have been through the discussion about it in another thread. MSMS has alluded to individuals such as Hafiz, Rumi and Mansoor who have attained that status.

Looking at the situation today, the Imam cannot be available to everyone who seeks this spiritual assistance. Does that mean that the rest of mankind have no access to the spiritual path necessary for enlightenment? Hence we have other perfect beings assisting the Imam for different segments of humanity and they are considered as Mursheed Kamil by their respective disciples. Their roles are however temporary unlike the permanent role of the Imam.

Extract of a Farman:
"This practice of individual search for spiritual enlightenment is generally speaking part of the Shia tradition, but it is not exclusively part of the Shia tradition. There are groups historically within Sunni Islam who have also practised, and practise today the individual search for spiritual enlightenment. But in the Ismaili tradition, in the Ismaili Tariqah, this has been there for a long, long, long, time."
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

When a human being attains Fana Fi Allah, he attains the spiritual status of the Imam although he may not function as such.

I'd like you to clarify few things here:

- what are Imam's functions?
- what would be the purpose of these self-realized individuals who attains higher stations?

kmaherali wrote:

Hence from that perspective he is as perfect as the Imam from the practical point of view. It does not matter whether that status was inherited (Imamat) or whether that status was achieved through personal search. A drop becomes the Ocean. We have been through the discussion about it in another thread. MSMS has alluded to individuals such as Hafiz, Rumi and Mansoor who have attained that status.

You are again wrong! The Imam is the source of Ta'yid. Hujjat who receives ta'yid from the Imam, and transmits that knowledge through ta'lim [instructions] to common men. Hujjats have spiritual knowledge and understanding, because they receive tay'id from the Imam. Men can not receive ta'yid from individuals who attained higher stations; men can only receive instructions from them.

I posted a reply under [People-->Jelaluddin Rumi] I suggest you go check it out. These men of truth, such as Rumi, for example function as Hujjat of "Night" to summon humanity to stright path.

MSMS said they attained that status, but that does not mean they become like the Imam.

kmaherali wrote:

Looking at the situation today, the Imam cannot be available to everyone who seeks this spiritual assistance. Does that mean that the rest of mankind have no access to the spiritual path necessary for enlightenment? Hence we have other perfect beings assisting the Imam for different segments of humanity and they are considered as Mursheed Kamil by their respective disciples. Their roles are however temporary unlike the permanent role of the Imam.

I'd like you to elaborate what do you mean when you say "Imam cannot be available to everyone who seeks this spiritual assistance". Do you mean physically? physically the Imam is not available even to the most Ismailis. Spiritually, Imam is available to the entire humanity. It's the ignorance of mankind who fail to recognize him. So, this argument of yours to say "Imam is not available" is absolutely holds no ground. Look back at history, there are men of truth who found the Imam of their time. It's about one's personal search for truth.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Friends,
I have been reading postings about Rumi, Hafiz, and our Pirs by Tret, Kmaherali, Nuseri,Agha khani and others with interest. Every human being has right to swim or dive in the ocean of spiritualism. Some swim on surface and others go deep. Real Sufis and Ismailis are not narrow minded. ALLAH is the creator and nourisher of whole universe.
He takes care of each particle in universe. He is God of all religions, communities, races, groups or what ever languages they speak. In spiritualism who ever seek closer to Him, He helps and accepts them; doesn't matter they are Ismailis or not. There is a couplet from Shah Jo Rasalo by Shah Latif bhittai in Sindhi language, he said,
KAAN PUCHHEY THHO ZAAT
JEKEY AAYA SE AGYA.
Means who ever comes knocking His door , He will not ask his zaat means race ( religion or other particulars). I know 7 languages of subcontinent and enjoy their literature.
In my opinion, to understand the spiritualism I personally like the poetry of Rumi, Shah latif, Hafiz and of course our Pirs.( But one must know the languages).
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear mazhar -

If you understand Persian, you can read this book which is about the story of Maulana and Shams. "Az Quniya taa Damishque" [From Quniya to Damishque | In search of the Sun]


Rumi was an instructor of Qur'an and shari'at in some madrasa, in Quniya prior to meeting Shams-e-Tabriz [who was an Ismaili, btw]. Mauwlan-i-Rumi climbed the stairs of ma'rifat, after his encounter and meeting with Shams.

Now who found who? Was it Mauwlana who was looking for Shams? or the other way around? In this book, it's said that Shams was actually looking for someone to complete his purpose. His purpose was to pass on the treasure that was hidden inside him. But, Shams had to find the right person who had the capacity of bearing this treasure. First he was looking for [Abdullah Ansar, I could be mistaken?] in Damishque, where Shams was residing. But, quickly Shams realized that this person wasn't able to bear this treasure of Shams. So, he came to Quniya where Mawulana was residing.

Shams even mentions that he doesn't write poem or books; however, he has the divine treasure in his heart, that must be passed on and preserved for humanity. Masnavi of Mauwlana is the book of truth, who's inspiration is greatly influenced by Shams. Most all [sunnies] muslims (especially sufi) can even put Masnavi besides Qur'an. So, the relation between Rumi and Shams is one of Murid and Murshid. However, we can not claim -- strictly from Ismaili POV -- that Shams was the same as the Imam of the Time. This is what my point I am trying to make. Shams was functioning as Da'i or Hujjat, showing the right path to Mawlana.

As you said, everyone has access to Universal Divine; however, without an intercessor, one is not capable of apprehending the perfection. In our case it's very clear it's the Imam of the Time, who has the highest status in the realm of spirituality.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
Some swim on surface and others go deep.

Exactly! And those who dive deeper, shall find the pearls which are at the bottom of the ocean.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
I assume that kmaherali considered murshid n murshidekamil,a male entity.
Many women have reached divinity.It is not just confined to man.
Women like Rabia,Mirabai,Imam begum,Saint theresa n my others were inspired sufi.
The inspired sufi are rasikulfililm.
It is mentioned as they in plural form for both man n women.ALI/Imam
is much much above that.
This word does hint Imam at all in plural sense.
the sufism in Ismailis is much much better n superior than sufi status achieved in other religion.
In Ismaili we have a haqiqat phase that we recognize GOD and realize him
within our self while other achieve realization of God within themselves
and lack recognizing may be in that life cycle.
we have sold formatted way blessed by ALI/MHI/GOD.
All ismailis stalwart attained tawhid kept low profile and sang like canary for ALI whom they recognized n experienced
.
Times do change as people may not listen to low volume songs so one has roar like a lion for ALI.He takes the final call on acts of many as they are just his pawn .
there was one nice posting by Kmaherali by Imam SMS

.You must think: “Where did Adam come from? Who sent Adam?” The man, who is a Sufi, will grasp this thought.

Imam will ask a question if he himself is the destination of answer,same goes for MHI IN FARMANS.
let us explore that.
It is said from religious GOD breathed his spirit in Adam to bring into life.
Nobody claims that there was biological father of Adam but all will rationally agree that adam n all of mankind after him are children of God/ALI ( brand name Allah came much later).
So in true sense of faith mankind are all spiritual children of GOD/ALI.
SO THERE IS ONE N ONLY SPIRITUAL FATHER FOR HUMANS.
jesus christ took name of elli elli as his holy father,Elli written in hebrew is pronounced as ALI, same as tawhid/tawheed.
Christian do have different concept of holy father.
here if try to find answer of Imam SMS now
WE see MHI/ALI is only entity out of linkage in quran n hadith claiming to be spirtiual father of his ismaili follower
This give rise to question is MHI/ALI/GOD ( or popular brand name Ali+lah=Allah) is spiritual fahter/God of all Human.
Answer is 1001%
YES YES YES.
he is claiming it openly his status of spiritual father.

AAPNE BAAP TO SAHI MAKAM PE PECHANA

TO KHAAK (dust) PECHANA.

A MAN WITHOUT FAITH IS LIKE DUST.

to Kmaherali: it was the will of ALI that you posted the farman/sayings of imam SMS maybe after 100 years you put the obligation on me to expand it that also was will of ALI.
As a team no entity on Earth CAN take on us except 'Ahle Bayt.'
ALI/GOD is with us.never ever have smallest iota of doubt.
Ali needs no fear ATTORNEY AT ALL LEVELS.

I sincerely wish all scholars to study the entity of 'spiritual father' on earth. dig into to book ,if any points are found post it,If needed I will try my best un code n expand it to logical understanding.

this assignment if for kmaherali,tret,admin,shams,agakhani,--2572,Fayaz
and ---103.
OUR BLESSED TIME STARS NOW FOR ALI N ONLY ALI.
so now we SAY temporary goodbye to sufism and say

WE STAND BY YOU OUR BELOVED SPIRITUAL FATHER.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret wrote:
Quote:
Exactly! And those who dive deeper, shall find the pearls which are at the bottom of the ocean.


Not every square foot of deep ocean is strewn with pearls. Islam is simple religion. Do what has been asked and live clean helpful and loving life in between.

Success is in Allah's hand and if you are sincere you will succeed. IA
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked you cannot edit posts or make replies    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Doctrines All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 30, 31, 32  Next
Page 3 of 32

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400