Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:25 pm

Noor i try not to engage with you. The reason being that your motives are always suspect and your integrity is, as far as i am concerned, in question. The Quranic ayat that you are arguing about reads as follows

"Warafana Laka Zikrak", not Dhiraka but Zikrak. These are blatant attempts for you to deceive and i find it horrifying to say the least. Zikrak is remembrance. There are several Naats composed by learned sunni ulema on the zikr of Prophet Mohammad. Apparently you are not even a sunni anymore since you deny the zikr of our Holy Prophet.

I will not engage with you on this topic, however i felt that what you posted was misleading and warranted a reply at the least. Again in arabic the last word is in 94:4 is pronounced Zikrak. And please talk to your maulvi about the zikr of Prophet Muhammad, he will advise you that you do that every time you say the namaz.

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:37 pm

zznoor wrote:The triliteral root 'dhal kaf ra' occurs 292 times in the Quran, in 14 derived forms:

In 94:4 it is 'verbal noun'
dhikraka your reputation (esteem)
Reference (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=*kr)

I guess that's what sets apart the orthodox mainstream sunnies than catholic muslim who are after esoteric teachings of the Qru'an and Islam. We are after the esoteric of the Qur'an's teaching, while ahl-e-sunnah is after literal meanings of the Qur'an. That's why we see radicals who think are doing by Qur'an's teaching, but they are unaware that they go against the teaching of the Qur'an and Islam. I wish they [orthodox muslims] realize and use their intellect to realize the essence of the faith of Islam, which is beautiful.

Valani · Post by **Valani** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:47 pm

Brothers tret, Fayyaz and all who are with us on this forum:

Althought I wanted to continue my discussion and had a little chance to collect a few references to validate my view point, but Undesirably, this discussion is apprently being perceived as a debate or as a contest which must endup with a losser and a winner or a right and a wrong which perhaps may not be true in reality.

My purpose to participate in discussion was to learn and share my learning which is what our Allah his Rasool and Imam (as you believe) want, but the continuaiton of our debate, as I figured out from the remarks of people during my little absence, is causing further divide and hatred which is what I never wanted. I seek Allah's refuge and retreat for good.

I, therefore, with due respect to everyone's opinion, contain myself to just reading this thread and the forums on this website.

I wish and I pray to Allah that one day all Muslims rise from their secterian and individualistic thought and unite holding tight the Rope of Allah and become the Party of Allah (Hizbullah) as IMO Allah wants.

Please forgive me if I intentionally/unintentionally hurt someones heart and feelings.

With kind regards and prayers for Hidayat for all of us and humanity at large.

Valani

If anyone feels a need to get in touch with me I can be contacted at my email adress svalani@hotmail.com. Brother Zznoor my inbox is showing only 3 PMs and that too are of 2009, I have therefore not received your PM.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:54 am

"Warafana Laka Zikrak", not Dhiraka but Zikrak. These are blatant attempts for you to deceive and i find it horrifying to say the least. Zikrak is remembrance

Br fayaz
Arabs pronounce zikraka as dhikraka.
There is no attempt to deceive.

Here are 3 scholars translation

[Shakir 94:4] And exalted for you your esteem?
[Pickthal 94:4] And exalted thy fame?
[Yusufali 94:4] And raised high the esteem (in which) thou (art held)?

Here is how Islam city.com shows transliteration of 94:4

WarafaAAna laka thikraka

BTW this line of exchange needs to move somewhere else.
ZAK and sAlaam

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:00 am

"Warafana Laka Zikrak", not Dhiraka but Zikrak. These are blatant attempts for you to deceive and i find it horrifying to say the least. Zikrak is remembrance

Br fayaz
Arabs pronounce zikraka as dhikraka.
There is no attempt to deceive.

Here are 3 scholars translation

[Shakir 94:4] And exalted for you your esteem?
[Pickthal 94:4] And exalted thy fame?
[Yusufali 94:4] And raised high the esteem (in which) thou (art held)?

Here is how Islam city.com shows transliteration of 94:4

WarafaAAna laka thikraka

BTW this line of exchange needs to move somewhere else.
ZAK and sAlaam

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:21 am

Please forgive me if I intentionally/unintentionally hurt someones heart and feelings.

Valani,

I, don't think you have to ask for forgiveness from forum readers, in my opinion you haven't give any bad comments or try to force readers to accept your opinions or point of view. Every one in this forum are most welcome and put their comments as long as they are not insulting our imam and our ritual and traditions.

FYI: if some one tries to force us to believe what he/she believes and insults our Imams then he/she will be caught!! ask ZZnoor.

I haven't answer or participate in debate but that doesn't mean I am not reading your posts! to me it is repeated matter ( same old same old just different days and participants)which has been discussed many time before and in this forum.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:44 am

Noor i try not to engage with you. The reason being that your motives are always suspect and your integrity is, as far as i am concerned, in question

She was once an Ismailis and she converted in Sunnism ( big back up jump!!! from 21 century to way back 14 century ) Now her main aims is to derails some Ismailis .

To give just her mind little courage, that the step she has taken of conversation is right!! she has stayed in this forum after so many threatens to ban her accounts.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:23 am

Valani wrote: My purpose to participate in discussion was to learn and share my learning...

It's always best to beg to differ, or simply agree to disagree than to quarrel, and simply cut short the discussion [or debate].
However, these type of discussions [or debate rather] always end up in disagreement, and is really hard to [learn or] come to an agreement. Until unless ahle-sunnah and shia doesn't agree on the concept of Imamate and successorship after the Prophet, to agree [and even learn on the principal os shia and ahl-e-sunnah, would be very far reality. This was the very reason, I wanted us to talk about the event of Ghadir-i-khum and the concept of Bay'ah.

Again, the purpose was more to point out the importance of these event and concept, than prove who's right or wrong.

It was a pleasure discussing with you; wish you well in your journey of soul searching and may you find what you are looking for.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:18 pm

tret wrote: It's always best to beg to differ, or simply agree to disagree than to quarrel, and simply cut short the discussion [or debate].
However, these type of discussions [or debate rather] always end up in disagreement, and is really hard to [learn or] come to an agreement. Until unless ahle-sunnah and shia doesn't agree on the concept of Imamate and successorship after the Prophet, to agree [and even learn on the principal os shia and ahl-e-sunnah, would be very far reality. This was the very reason, I wanted us to talk about the event of Ghadir-i-khum and the concept of Bay'ah.

To Tret

Imamate has higher status than Prophet-hood.

Is it possible for a Prophet to appoint an Imam?

If Mohamed did really appoint Ali as His successor at Gadhir, then does not that mean that Ali is the next Prophet after Mohamed?

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:35 pm

a_27826 wrote:
To Tret

Imamate has higher status than Prophet-hood.

Is it possible for a Prophet to appoint an Imam?

If Mohamed did really appoint Ali as His successor at Gadhir, then does not that mean that Ali is the next Prophet after Mohamed?

Dear a_27826 -

When you say "Imamate is higher than Prophet-hood", can you please elaborate, in what sense do you mean this? Any reference to validate your point, please?

Prophet doesn't appoint prophet. Prophet appoints his Wasi. In the event of Ghadir-e-Khum, Mauwla Ali was appointed -- again according to shia doctrine -- as Prophet's successor, his Wasi to continue the Tah'wil and Tah'lim of the final message of God [The Qur'an].

Remember, even previous Prophets didn't appoint next Prophet. So, I am not sure how do you conclude the appointment of Mauwla Ali as Prophet Mohammad's successor, would imply that Prophet appointed another [next] Prophet? I am not following this.... For that matter, I quote the first Para(A) of our Constitution that affirms that Prophet Mohammad is the last and final Prophet of Allah.

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the shahādah lā ilāha illa-llāh, Muhammadur rasulu-llāh, the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (s.a.s.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

In reference to appointment of Mauwla Ali as Wasi and successor of the Prophet, I am quoting the Para(B) of our Constitution. I am not certainly how firmly do you believe the elements spelled out in our Constitution?

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (s.a.s.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu’minin (a.s), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta’wīl and Ta‘līm of Allah’s final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (a.s) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khātun-i-Jannat (a.s).

So, according to your analysis, is this element of our Constitution -- which is sealed and signed by MHI -- not valid? Or how do you, then respond to this Para(B) of our Constitution?

Post by **Admin** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:39 pm

Imam can not be appointed by a Prophet. At Ghadir e Khum, our Prophet (PBUH) pointed out that Hazrat Ali was THE Imam.

One can have his own interpretation of what is the Imam but as the present Imam said, you can not teach the Tariqah without teaching what is the Imam. This thread is not on that subject but there is already another thread to discuss that particular issue.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:23 pm

Prophet doesn't appoint prophet. Prophet appoints his Wasi.

Question for you Tret,

-Do you think H. Ali was prophet? because prophet was appointed him as his wasi in Gadir-e-Khum.

- Are you accept H. Ali as our first Imam? or you consider him as Tah'wil and Tah'lim giver?

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:27 pm

Admin wrote:Imam can not be appointed by a Prophet. At Ghadir e Khum, our Prophet (PBUH) pointed out that Hazrat Ali was THE Imam.

One can have his own interpretation of what is the Imam but as the present Imam said, you can not teach the Tariqah without teaching what is the Imam. This thread is not on that subject but there is already another thread to discuss that particular issue.

Admin wrote: Imam can not be appointed by a Prophet. At Ghadir e Khum, our Prophet (PBUH) pointed out that Hazrat Ali was THE Imam.

One can have his own interpretation of what is the Imam but as the present Imam said, you can not teach the Tariqah without teaching what is the Imam. This thread is not on that subject but there is already another thread to discuss that particular issue.

We can not even agree with each other, and we expect to discuss these matters with a non-Imamiah. That's ironic. Anyways.

To Admin - then can you please kindly let me know what Para(B) of our Constitution means? I simply repeat my question I posed to a_27826, "Do you accept Para(B) of the Constitution of discard it?

Remember we are talking about Manifest Imam [Not Eternal Imam, which I think you are referring to].. I hope you know the difference.

Also note the nature of the discussion, here!

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:32 pm

agakhani wrote:
Prophet doesn't appoint prophet. Prophet appoints his Wasi.
Question for you Tret,

-Do you think H. Ali was prophet? because prophet was appointed him as his wasi in Gadir-e-Khum.

- Are you accept H. Ali as our first Imam? or you consider him as Tah'wil and Tah'lim giver?

agakhani wrote: Question for you Tret,

-Do you think H. Ali was prophet? because prophet was appointed him as his wasi in Gadir-e-Khum.

- Are you accept H. Ali as our first Imam? or you consider him as Tah'wil and Tah'lim giver?

These are very good questions.

- I don't think H. Ali was a Prophet. Because Prophets have revelation, and according to Islam [and Ismailies, since we are Muslim, alhamdullillah], Prophet Mohammad was the last and final messenger of Allah.

- One of duties of the Imam is to interpret the faith [as MHI mentioned that numerous times]. Tah'lim and Tah'wil is the interpretation of faith. Remember folks, we are talking about Manifest Imam [We are not talking about Eternal Imam, please make the distinction when discussing, and in which context]

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:50 pm

agakhani wrote:
Noor i try not to engage with you. The reason being that your motives are always suspect and your integrity is, as far as i am concerned, in question
She was once an Ismailis and she converted in Sunnism ( big back up jump!!! from 21 century to way back 14 century ) Now her main aims is to derails some Ismailis .

To give just her mind little courage, that the step she has taken of conversation is right!! she has stayed in this forum after so many threatens to ban her accounts.

No it is not jump back to 1400 years.
It is reverting to mainstream Islam.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:49 pm

Why don"t you say this?
That mainstream Islam in which majority Muslims still lives and follows 1400 years old traditions and customs

in that Islam in which Muslims have get lost from the true right path Siratan Mustkim and becames "Gumrah"?

Tuje pata hai ki yaha int ka jawab patther se milta hai, phir bhi tu baaj nahi aati!
Ghatia aurat.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:35 pm

agakhani wrote:Why don"t you say this?
That mainstream Islam in which majority Muslims still lives and follows 1400 years old traditions and customs in that Islam in which Muslims have get lost from the true right path Siratan Mustkim and becames "Gumrah"?

Tuje pata hai ki yaha int ka jawab patther se milta hai, phir bhi tu baaj nahi aati!
Ghatia aurat.

It is stupid answers.
Unfortunately Admin deleted my reference to American Muslim.
Reverting to mainstream Islam means
Performing obligatory Salat, Fast and other deeds. It has no connection to going back to 1400 years.
Search and look at nytimes video "new American Musim"
Salaam brother

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:52 pm

If you follow regular Salat, Fast , Zakat and Hajj if possible and do not cheat, or hurt anybody and always be helpful
You are on Siratan Mustikin, Inshah Allah

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:17 pm

tret wrote: When you say "Imamate is higher than Prophet-hood", can you please elaborate, in what sense do you mean this? Any reference to validate your point, please?

I based it on

002:124 and when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them. He said, 'Behold, I make you Imam for the people.'

At Ghadir, I believe the Prophet was commanded to declare (not to appoint) Ali as the Imam.

005:067 O Messenger, deliver that which has been revealed to you from your Lord; if you do not, then you have not have delivered His Message

About difference between Eternal Imam and Manifest Imam.

I always thought Eternal Imam as the Light of God and the Manifest Imam as the bearer of that Light.

It now seems my thinking is wrong. So what’s the difference?

On second thoughts, let’s leave it as Admin pointed out it’s not the subject of this thread.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:44 pm

a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote: When you say "Imamate is higher than Prophet-hood", can you please elaborate, in what sense do you mean this? Any reference to validate your point, please?
I based it on

002:124 and when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them. He said, 'Behold, I make you Imam for the people.'

At Ghadir, I believe the Prophet was commanded to declare (not to appoint) Ali as the Imam.

005:067 O Messenger, deliver that which has been revealed to you from your Lord; if you do not, then you have not have delivered His Message

About difference between Eternal Imam and Manifest Imam.

I always thought Eternal Imam as the Light of God and the Manifest Imam as the bearer of that Light.

It now seems my thinking is wrong. So what’s the difference?

On second thoughts, let’s leave it as Admin pointed out it’s not the subject of this thread.

The Prophet delivers the exoteric [tanzil] of the message of God; where as the Wasi the esoteric [Tah'wil] of the message of God.
Since the history of human, the 2 offices of Imamate and Hujjatship has existed and shall always exist. The Prophets [during major cycle] were occupying the office of Imamate; where as the Wasi was occupying the office of Hujjatship. After when the cycle prophethood ended and the cycle of [Manifest] Imamate began with Mauwla Ali, then the office of Imamate is occupied by the Imam of the time, and the office of Hujjatship is occupied by Imam's Hujjat [aka Pir according to ginanic texts]. So, the Prophets and the Imams are bearer of the same noor, provided that they [Imam and Prophet] both at their time occupy the same office. Prophet Mohammad said "Ali and I are from the same Noor". Therefore, we can't really say Imams are higher in status than Prophets or vise versa, from the view point of that they both occupy the office of Imamat. However, looking at it exoterically, the Prophet appointed his successor [Mauwla Ali] to continue to perform the Tah'wil and Tah'lim of the final message of God.

I think if we have a constructive discussion -- even off topic of the thread -- where one can benefit from it, we should say it; rather than asking permission from admin. So, I think it's worth discussing this; as even this is related.

I agree with you that Eternal Imam is the Noor, and the Manifest Imam is the bearer [or rather the manifestation or Mazhar] of that Noor. Imam speaks as Eternal Imam or Manifest Imam, depending who are the audience. When Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [And that's why some members quote Farameen], then HE says phrases such as, I am the creator and the sustainer; I am the First and the Last and other phrases as such. And when Imam is speaking as Manifest Imam, then HE would have all human qualities and functioning as the Guide to Murids. I think it's really crucial to understand the two and make the distinction.

But, as first and foremost step for all Ismailies to adhere to our Constitution which spells out very clearly that Mauwla Ali was appointed as Prophet Mohammad's successor and the Constitution is the foundation of our faith, which has been signed and sealed by our beloved MHI. To contradict [any element] of our Constitution is to contradict our Imam's guidance. Again, this is my take.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:08 pm

nuseri wrote:To Admin: Ya Ali Madad.

I may wish to go on other many more verses shortly

As far as you respect the topic header of this thread, you can continue posting here without opening a new thread. If you have to open a new thread, please first do a search and make sure the new thread is not already active since sometime somewhere else in this Forum

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:48 pm

tret wrote: I agree with you that Eternal Imam is the Noor, and the Manifest Imam is the bearer [or rather the manifestation or Mazhar] of that Noor. Imam speaks as Eternal Imam or Manifest Imam, depending who are the audience. When Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [And that's why some members quote Farameen], then HE says phrases such as, I am the creator and the sustainer; I am the First and the Last and other phrases as such. And when Imam is speaking as Manifest Imam, then HE would have all human qualities and functioning as the Guide to Murids. I think it's really crucial to understand the two and make the distinction.

thank you for your thoughts/believes about difference between Eternal Imam and Manifest Imam.

It always bothered me when the Imam is seemingly contradicting Himself when talking to different kind of audiences.

your explanation has now eased my mind.

for example, according to shia doctrine, the Imam is infallible, but we see the Imam responding to a newspaper reporter like this:

NT: Do you feel you’ve made any mistakes?

AK: Yes, of course I have.

NT: Do you regret any?

AK: One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgement – there are many reasons.

The Sunday Times Interview, Part I, Nicholas Tomalin, ‘The Ruler Without A Kingdom’ (London, United Kingdom) 12 December 1965

But then a question arises: why doesn't the Imam admit that He (as the perfect man) is infallible.

Surely takiya at this age and time could not be the reason.

But again that's an another topic.

anyways thanx for responding.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:56 pm

a_27826 wrote: But then a question arises: why doesn't the Imam admit that He (as the perfect man) is infallible.

Surely takiya at this age and time could not be the reason.

I guess it has to do a lot more with the audience, then anything else. Remember, knowledge of Imam is like blazing fire and only a select few has the capacity of absorbing that knowledge. Knowledge of Imam is hostile to majority of common people. This is one of the reasons, why knowledge of the Imam has to be transmitted through the intermediary of the Hujjat [Pir] to murids.

Imam certainly says -- at His sermons -- that I am creator, sustainer, First, Last, etc..etc... [That in itself implies infallibility], but that is again to very specific audience, and not anyone and everyone.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:48 pm

There was a Talika when Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah published the Memoirs. He spoke in that Talika about the 2 sorts of audience he has and that the Memoirs was for the non-Ismaili audience.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:25 pm

I agree with admin and I mentioned it many times before that the farameens delivered for jamats in deedar hall and speeches delivered for general audience in public hall for public gathering has big difference, it may be differ from one another and that is why a true Ismailis have always prefered and relied on the farmans not on speeches.
FYI; Nahjul Balagah is a great book of H. Ali"s Khutbas, letters, advices and teachings but that is for every body therefore we do not read in JK same way we do not give more importance to the speeches in JK.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:59 pm

Now back to the topic of this thread: it is about Quran am I right?
Then tell me where in Qurans it is quoted for a true Muslim women who can also wear "b_k_I_I?

now look bro (no sister here for me ZZNoor is not my sister as I told you before) now look in Muslim countries they are wear b I k I n I and keeps there 99% body UN cover!
ZZnoor is from this categories who wear Burkha to show and make another people fool all day and wear Bk when ........, she ? I can not write more.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:01 pm

agakhani wrote:I agree with admin and I mentioned it many times before that the farameens delivered for jamats in deedar hall and speeches delivered for general audience in public hall for public gathering has big difference, it may be differ from one another and that is why a true Ismailis have always prefered and relied on the farmans not on speeches.
FYI; Nahjul Balagah is a great book of H. Ali"s Khutbas, letters, advices and teachings but that is for every body therefore we do not read in JK same way we do not give more importance to the speeches in JK.

that's the mistake most members are making, by categorizing as "important" and "not important". It is important to realize the distinction, and get the true message of it. It certainly doesn't mean that speeches of MHI is useless and we -- as ismailies -- should not listen and act on them.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:16 pm

Ya Ali Madad.
to all members who wish to defend ALI at whatever level you believe in HIM
as Agakhan,Imam,Khuda.
One may be better off on what HE says at what levels and others says.

1.Read n Listen to the Farmans.Try if possible to understand it deeply.
Abide and follow it.
2.Listen n read ginan n qasidas.try to understand it properly it's essence n core faith of the writers.Get inspired by it.(it is Quran made easy for believers).
3.Read n listen to speeches and scholar's material.Understand it ,acknowledge and respect it.

Many firqas in Shia split took place because of mixing the importance n order of the three and clever one folled the ignorant one.

The core foundation/belief of Ismailis in Imam and Quran and not the articles of the constitution.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:10 am

tret wrote: When you say "Imamate is higher than Prophet-hood", can you please elaborate, in what sense do you mean this? Any reference to validate your point, please?

In the Ginan Allah Ek Khassam Sabuka it is mentioned:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam

Meaning - Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam.

Imamat is a state to be attained and the Prophet (who was the Pir) guides you towards the goal.

tret wrote: But, as first and foremost step for all Ismailies to adhere to our Constitution which spells out very clearly that Mauwla Ali was appointed as Prophet Mohammad's successor and the Constitution is the foundation of our faith, which has been signed and sealed by our beloved MHI. To contradict [any element] of our Constitution is to contradict our Imam's guidance. Again, this is my take.

Absolutely we must adhere to what our constitution articulates. However at the same time we must also acknowledge that there are two sides to the interpretation of faith - the Zahir and the Batin. MHI in his Farman to the Syrian Jamat alluded to this by stating that in regards to the interpretation of our faith that which is zahir is zahir and that which is Batin is Batin. The constitution reflects the Zahir of our faith and the Ginans and other devotional literature reflect the Batin.

From the Zahir Hazart Aly was appointed by the Prophet at Ghadir.

From the Batin Hazarat Aly was appointed by his father Abu Talib.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:56 am

a_27826 wrote:About difference between Eternal Imam and Manifest Imam.

I always thought Eternal Imam as the Light of God and the Manifest Imam as the bearer of that Light.

It now seems my thinking is wrong. So what’s the difference?

In my opinion there is no essential difference except that the Eterenal Imam never changes whereas the Manifest Imam changes - Light upon Light.

tret wrote: The Prophet delivers the exoteric [tanzil] of the message of God; where as the Wasi the esoteric [Tah'wil] of the message of God.
Since the history of human, the 2 offices of Imamate and Hujjatship has existed and shall always exist. The Prophets [during major cycle] were occupying the office of Imamate; where as the Wasi was occupying the office of Hujjatship. After when the cycle prophethood ended and the cycle of [Manifest] Imamate began with Mauwla Ali, then the office of Imamate is occupied by the Imam of the time, and the office of Hujjatship is occupied by Imam's Hujjat [aka Pir according to ginanic texts]. So, the Prophets and the Imams are bearer of the same noor, provided that they [Imam and Prophet] both at their time occupy the same office. Prophet Mohammad said "Ali and I are from the same Noor". Therefore, we can't really say Imams are higher in status than Prophets or vise versa, from the view point of that they both occupy the office of Imamat. However, looking at it exoterically, the Prophet appointed his successor [Mauwla Ali] to continue to perform the Tah'wil and Tah'lim of the final message of God.

Tusi in his Paradise of Submission explains the exalted and distinct status of Imamat:

[§402] Every Prophet - peace be upon all of them - has had a legatee (wasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly set and established with surety, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been temporarily entrusted through trusteeship (istida'). The reason for this legacy is that during the period of each Prophet, the truthful Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - perceived it to be in the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as legatees of that Prophet. Adam's wasl was Seth (Shith), who has been called the son of Adam. The vestiges of knowledge in which Adam was instructed by God and the illumination of those words, by means of which Adam's repentance was accepted [by God], were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that legacy has continued in the progeny of Seth, 'offspring, one of another (3: 34), and will continue to the end of the life of the world.

[§410] The conservation of religious prescriptions of the Prophets was committed into the hands of the real Imams (imdmdn-i mustaqarr)
- may salutations ensue upon mention of them. However, because of the benefits they saw therein, and the divine wisdom they understood therein, they have sometimes effected this conservation through their own sacred selves, and have at other times entrusted it to their vicegerents and other people. Had they always effected this conservation themselves, the spirituality of these religious laws would have always remained firm and all the disagreements [there have been] would never have occurred. But since God has made these disagreements a cause for concord, as Muhammad - peace be upon him and his progeny - has said, 'Differences amongst my community are a mercy,'142 they have done whatever they deemed advisable for mankind at that time, and in like manner they have made the continuance of these rules an obligation.

[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.