YAM!
We all know it very well that seven days of creation do not refer to the creation of physical world rather it actually refers to creation of spiritual cosmos.these seven days refer to seven eras of the creation of spiritual cosmos.
but the thing which is still unclear in my mind is ''if there have been similiar cycles before adam and there will be similiar cycles after after the completion of this cycle with the advent of Qaim ul QYAMA?
can anybody please throw light on this topic
DAYS OF CREATION
Re: DAYS OF CREATION
sujjawal wrote:YAM!
We all know it very well that seven days of creation do not refer to the creation of physical world rather it actually refers to creation of spiritual cosmos.these seven days refer to seven eras of the creation of spiritual cosmos.
but the thing which is still unclear in my mind is ''if there have been similiar cycles before adam and there will be similiar cycles after after the completion of this cycle with the advent of Qaim ul QYAMA?
can anybody please throw light on this topic
Seven days of creation as you rightfully said is not related to creation of physical world; However, it's referred to the evolution and perfection of humanity and human spirituality and not creation of spiritual cosomos.
Another point: Qiamat according to Ismaili theology does not mean the destruction of physical world. It's rather revelation of esoteric meaning of religious concepts.
I am not too sure about cycles of pre-Adam; According to all Abrahemic faith [Ismaili Muslim is considered one of the Abrahemic faith]. Spiritual world started by Adam AS. Now life could existed well before Adam; however it may not very well be in the form of human with Intellect.
Re: DAYS OF CREATION
but in an artical Mr. shafique N.virani writes as followstret wrote:Another point: Qiamat according to Ismaili theology does not mean the destruction of physical world. It's rather revelation of esoteric meaning of religious concepts.
you can find this artical in the following link:The Qa’im is from among the descendants of the Asas and represents the pinnacle and purpose of creation. Because of him, the Universal Soul attains completion and reaches the rank of the Universal Intellect, leading to the annihilation of the physical world.
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106747
Re: DAYS OF CREATION
sujjawal wrote:but in an artical Mr. shafique N.virani writes as followstret wrote:Another point: Qiamat according to Ismaili theology does not mean the destruction of physical world. It's rather revelation of esoteric meaning of religious concepts.you can find this artical in the following link:The Qa’im is from among the descendants of the Asas and represents the pinnacle and purpose of creation. Because of him, the Universal Soul attains completion and reaches the rank of the Universal Intellect, leading to the annihilation of the physical world.
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106747
This is certainly interesting. It appears that Dr. Shafique Virani is referencing that from Nasir Khusraw's Wajh-e-Din, which is apparently a translation of the original text from Perisan into English. I'd need to take a look at the original text to be able to compare and analyze the assertion of "annihilation of the physical world". It could also mean the physical body [jism] and not necessarily heavens and earth. But, it's certainly something to ponder upon.
The term Qiamah itself in ismaili theology means esoteric revelation of religious matters and it can happen in each cycles, but Daw'r of Qiamah [Qaim-ul Qiamah] or Cycle of Resurrection, the scale of revelation will be vast and extend beyond Ismaili jama'at, as it's beginning to happen with our beloved 49th Imam.
Seven days of creation as you rightfully said is not related to creation of physical world; However, it's referred to the evolution and perfection of humanity and human spirituality and not creation of spiritual cosomos.
As long as you keep your above meaning for you and for your other IDS then that is fine other wise your meaning and understanding of seven days of creation is totally wrong !! because Bible, Hindu Purans, Vedas and ismaili ginanic are telling some thing different about creation when Allah created this universe first time there were no human being were created right away neither on this earth nor any other planets!! human being still had to wait millions and millions years so they can live on this earth because this earth and other planets were so hot that there is no question that human being can survive, means atmosphere on this earth was remained hot millions and millions years after even creation! in this millions years no human being were possible!
As per ginanic literature human being was first started to live on this earth millions and millions years after the creation and those humans were premature and wild/jangali as per the ginans and other religion sources the first life on this earth was in form of fish! then after turtle! and animal and half animal and half human and so on, please read ten incarnation theory composed by Pir Sadardin and Syed Imamshah so in my opinion your above understanding ( spiritual cosmos) is not appropriate when there is no human being there then why the heck Allah need spiritual cosmos??!! think about this!!
The truth is this! this universe is created step by step as per the evolution theory even humans being is also created as per the evolution theory, step by step, please read Darwin's evolution theory,
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shiraz.virani
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agakhani wrote:Seven days of creation as you rightfully said is not related to creation of physical world; However, it's referred to the evolution and perfection of humanity and human spirituality and not creation of spiritual cosomos.
As long as you keep your above meaning for you and for your other IDS then that is fine other wise your meaning and understanding of seven days of creation is totally wrong !! because Bible, Hindu Purans, Vedas and ismaili ginanic are telling some thing different about creation when Allah created this universe first time there were no human being were created right away neither on this earth nor any other planets!! human being still had to wait millions and millions years so they can live on this earth because this earth and other planets were so hot that there is no question that human being can survive, means atmosphere on this earth was remained hot millions and millions years after even creation! in this millions years no human being were possible!
As per ginanic literature human being was first started to live on this earth millions and millions years after the creation and those humans were premature and wild/jangali as per the ginans and other religion sources the first life on this earth was in form of fish! then after turtle! and animal and half animal and half human and so on, please read ten incarnation theory composed by Pir Sadardin and Syed Imamshah so in my opinion your above understanding ( spiritual cosmos) is not appropriate when there is no human being there then why the heck Allah need spiritual cosmos??!! think about this!!
The truth is this! this universe is created step by step as per the evolution theory even humans being is also created as per the evolution theory, step by step, please read Darwin's evolution theory
So basically you are concurring with the idea of darwin, right? That humans have evolved from chimpanzees... Well my good friend, it's a free world, you can believe whatever you wishes...
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shiraz.virani
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- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
tret said :
Do you think that H.Adam[as] was the "missing link" or the link that joins us humans together.... who was given reasoning and intellect by the almighty [who showed him[adam] all the signs] ???
Was H.Adam[as] and his ancestors were =ANNUNAKI or the missing link between the man and monkey ???
Whats your take on this ??
Tret what is your take on the creation of H.Adam[as] ???So basically you are concurring with the idea of darwin, right? That humans have evolved from chimpanzees... Well my good friend, it's a free world, you can believe whatever you wishes...
Do you think that H.Adam[as] was the "missing link" or the link that joins us humans together.... who was given reasoning and intellect by the almighty [who showed him[adam] all the signs] ???
Was H.Adam[as] and his ancestors were =ANNUNAKI or the missing link between the man and monkey ???
Whats your take on this ??
This is not my idea, btw, it's the belief of all Abrahemic faiths, including Islam. But, you seem to disagree whatever Islam has to say, from the holly Prophet to the Qur'an. the only thing you care about is the ginans, which is totally fine by me. Anyways, I really don't want to get down to your level to debate, and you are free to believe whatever suits you, which you proved apparently it's not Islam.agakhani wrote:
As long as you keep your above meaning for you and for your other IDS then that is fine other wise your meaning and understanding of seven days of creation is totally wrong !!
@tret
I would disagree with your understanding slightly. The Quran mentions creation as being part of pair, where a thing is created in the spiritual world and is transferred to the physical. I am paraphrasing God said be and it was. The Quran mention the physical world is a world of cause and effect, where logic is king. However the spiritual world is the world of divine law where God says to be and it is.
Also before humans God created the jinn, who also had the faculty of intellect. Therefore there was the spiritual world before humans. Also physicists and engineers like to ask what was there before everything. A religious man would answer God, which would have existed in the spiritual world only before physical creation.
I would disagree with your understanding slightly. The Quran mentions creation as being part of pair, where a thing is created in the spiritual world and is transferred to the physical. I am paraphrasing God said be and it was. The Quran mention the physical world is a world of cause and effect, where logic is king. However the spiritual world is the world of divine law where God says to be and it is.
Also before humans God created the jinn, who also had the faculty of intellect. Therefore there was the spiritual world before humans. Also physicists and engineers like to ask what was there before everything. A religious man would answer God, which would have existed in the spiritual world only before physical creation.
fayaz006 wrote:@tret
I would disagree with your understanding slightly. The Quran mentions creation as being part of pair, where a thing is created in the spiritual world and is transferred to the physical. I am paraphrasing God said be and it was. The Quran mention the physical world is a world of cause and effect, where logic is king. However the spiritual world is the world of divine law where God says to be and it is.
Also before humans God created the jinn, who also had the faculty of intellect. Therefore there was the spiritual world before humans. Also physicists and engineers like to ask what was there before everything. A religious man would answer God, which would have existed in the spiritual world only before physical creation.
Dear Fayaz - First of all, I wanted to ask you which which part do you disagree? Can you please quote what I said? I'd like to know in which part to you see disagreement?
NOTE: For some reason one of my posts got corrupted, where part of 'agakhani's post appears to be mine, which is not!!!!
Admin - please take note!!!!
About creation of the physical world: In Qur'an it says that it takes a blink of an eye to create. The concept of 7 days of creation [6 days to create and the 7th to perfect] refers to 6 great cycles of Natiqeen [Adam, Abrahim, Noha, Moses, Jesus, and finally beloved Prophet Muhammad], and the 7th day is referred to Qaim, which is the cycle of Resurrection.
A small correction about creation in pair and 'transferred' to physical from spiritual world:
It's understood that spiritual world is the cause of our temporal world and there are ranks in spiritual realm as well as the world of faith, such as Universal Intellect, Universal Soul, Jadd, Fatt, Khyal, and we have in the world of faith, the Imam, Hujjat, Dai, Mualeem, Mazoon. So, the physical world [world of faith] is manifestation of the spiritual realm. I am not sure if we can say entities from spiritual realm are transferred to physical world, but rather they are manifested into physical world.
as a matter of fact, everything in this physical world are nothing but cause and effect [beneficent and beneficiary], such as Murshid and Murid, Master and disciple, teacher and student, plants and animals, etc... Similarly, spiritual world is the cause [beneficent] and physical world is the effect [beneficiary].
One thing is for sure that the more science progresses, the more it gets closer to God. Today, scientists affirms the existence of a transcendence power which is beyond human's comprehension and capacity.
Dear Shiraz - I am not sure which 'missing link' are you referring to? Are you suggesting to reconcile darwin's theory with one of Islam's? or what's the question, I am not following?shiraz.virani wrote:tret said :
Tret what is your take on the creation of H.Adam[as] ???So basically you are concurring with the idea of darwin, right? That humans have evolved from chimpanzees... Well my good friend, it's a free world, you can believe whatever you wishes...
Do you think that H.Adam[as] was the "missing link" or the link that joins us humans together.... who was given reasoning and intellect by the almighty [who showed him[adam] all the signs] ???
Was H.Adam[as] and his ancestors were =ANNUNAKI or the missing link between the man and monkey ???
Whats your take on this ??
Apparently, there various interpretation of Adam in the Islamic accounts, that implies the start of spiritual realm [not life on earth!]. The fall of Adam from heaven could very well have symbolic meaning and tawil and we can certainly dive deeper.
you cant deny the fact that our dais have not rejected the idea of creation by organic evolution.you can see how nasir uddin tusi has explained this in followingtret wrote: So basically you are concurring with the idea of darwin, right? That humans have evolved from chimpanzees... Well my good friend, it's a free world, you can believe whatever you wishes...
“When the effusive grace of the Divine Command fell upon the First Intellect, it did not halt there, but provoked the existence of another type of being, that is, the Universal Soul. Likewise, when it [the Command] fell from the First Intellect upon the Universal Soul, it did not halt there either, but it provoked another type of existence, that is, the spheres. And when it [the Command of God] fell from the spheres upon the elements, it did not halt there but provoke another type of existence, that is, the natural kingdoms. And [similarly], when it fell from the natural kingdoms upon the minerals, it did not halt there, but provoked another type of existence, that is, the plant kingdom. And when it fell upon the animal kingdom, it did not stop there, but provoked another type of existence, that is, humanity. But when it fell upon man, it stopped there, for the furthest reach and terminus of creation was sealed with him. Thus, man is a compendium (majmū‘ī) of all these stages and perfections, bearing within himself a likeness of the entire Cosmos, which is expressed by the marvels of his physical constitution and the amazing composition of his soul.”
(The Paradise of Submission, 169)
Dear sujjawal - I have the original text in Persian as well as the translated text in English by Badakhshani. Kindly explain how do you see, it implies human evolution from animal? It rather explains different worlds (matter, vegetative, animal and human), that came to existence from the realm of spirituality where one is the cause for the other.sujjawal wrote:you cant deny the fact that our dais have not rejected the idea of creation by organic evolution.you can see how nasir uddin tusi has explained this in followingtret wrote: So basically you are concurring with the idea of darwin, right? That humans have evolved from chimpanzees... Well my good friend, it's a free world, you can believe whatever you wishes...“When the effusive grace of the Divine Command fell upon the First Intellect, it did not halt there, but provoked the existence of another type of being, that is, the Universal Soul. Likewise, when it [the Command] fell from the First Intellect upon the Universal Soul, it did not halt there either, but it provoked another type of existence, that is, the spheres. And when it [the Command of God] fell from the spheres upon the elements, it did not halt there but provoke another type of existence, that is, the natural kingdoms. And [similarly], when it fell from the natural kingdoms upon the minerals, it did not halt there, but provoked another type of existence, that is, the plant kingdom. And when it fell upon the animal kingdom, it did not stop there, but provoked another type of existence, that is, humanity. But when it fell upon man, it stopped there, for the furthest reach and terminus of creation was sealed with him. Thus, man is a compendium (majmū‘ī) of all these stages and perfections, bearing within himself a likeness of the entire Cosmos, which is expressed by the marvels of his physical constitution and the amazing composition of his soul.”
(The Paradise of Submission, 169)
okay tret then what you will say about followingtret wrote: Dear sujjawal - I have the original text in Persian as well as the translated text in English by Badakhshani. Kindly explain how do you see, it implies human evolution from animal? It rather explains different worlds (matter, vegetative, animal and human), that came to existence from the realm of spirituality where one is the cause for the other.
“The natural kingdoms began with solidification [of minerals], then [there came] plants, then animals and then human beings. The final stage of minerals was joined to the first stage of the plant kingdom, the final stage of the plant kingdom to the first stage of the animal kingdom, the final stage of the animal kingdom to the first stage of man, and the final stage of man to the first stage of the angelic kingdom. Since the chain of existence(causing) the return of all things to the Command of the Almighty, reached its completion in the perfect status of man, and since the ability to acquire such perfection, [consisting of diverse] intellectual conveniences and physical tools, was particular to man, it is clear that, although the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms preceded him in [the temporal order of] existence, the ultimate aim of all of them was him. And it is said, ‘the first in thought is the last in action.’”
(The Paradise of Submission,page# 29)
Off course and everyone should care about our wonderful tradition, and that is what our MHI wants from us too.the only thing you care about is the ginans,
The other reason I do not know Arabic and I do not know which quranic tranlation is good and which quranic translation is bad so I rely on ginans which are written in my own language which I read, write and understand very well and hold doctorate degree in it. According Sultan Mohd Shah (s.a.) "ginans are tafshir of Quran"!!
Now back to the creation I can give you as many as references you want besides ginans in which you can also find whatever I wrote above is true i.e. the creation of whole universe was made step by step and human being created/born many years after the creation.
Islamic and Persian literature are not enough to judge or make any bold comments therefore you and we all have to read other religions literature as well to come final judgement. It is 100% possible that your meaning may be right as bro Admin says that there are many meaning about 7 days creation!! so no hard feeling here.
Thanks Sujjawal for sharing above reference which indeed support my thinking.“The natural kingdoms began with solidification [of minerals], then [there came] plants, then animals and then human beings. The final stage of minerals was joined to the first stage of the plant kingdom, the final stage of the plant kingdom to the first stage of the animal kingdom, the final stage of the animal kingdom to the first stage of man, and the final stage of man to the first stage of the angelic kingdom. Since the chain of existence(causing) the return of all things to the Command of the Almighty, reached its completion in the perfect status of man, and since the ability to acquire such perfection, [consisting of diverse] intellectual conveniences and physical tools, was particular to man, it is clear that, although the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms preceded him in [the temporal order of] existence, the ultimate aim of all of them was him. And it is said, ‘the first in thought is the last in action.’”
(The Paradise of Submission,page# 29)
Shiraz,
I do not know about Adam that he was Anunaki or missing link but .....
Yeas there were one missing link between monkey and man and the name of this missing link is 'Vaman" as per Ten Avatar: In English it is called as 'DWARF".
Recently ( may be ten years ago scientist found that Dwarf had some kind connection between man and chimpanzees.) so I think you are talking about this missing link.
I do not know about Adam that he was Anunaki or missing link but .....
Yeas there were one missing link between monkey and man and the name of this missing link is 'Vaman" as per Ten Avatar: In English it is called as 'DWARF".
Recently ( may be ten years ago scientist found that Dwarf had some kind connection between man and chimpanzees.) so I think you are talking about this missing link.
sujjawal wrote:okay tret then what you will say about followingtret wrote: Dear sujjawal - I have the original text in Persian as well as the translated text in English by Badakhshani. Kindly explain how do you see, it implies human evolution from animal? It rather explains different worlds (matter, vegetative, animal and human), that came to existence from the realm of spirituality where one is the cause for the other.“The natural kingdoms began with solidification [of minerals], then [there came] plants, then animals and then human beings. The final stage of minerals was joined to the first stage of the plant kingdom, the final stage of the plant kingdom to the first stage of the animal kingdom, the final stage of the animal kingdom to the first stage of man, and the final stage of man to the first stage of the angelic kingdom. Since the chain of existence(causing) the return of all things to the Command of the Almighty, reached its completion in the perfect status of man, and since the ability to acquire such perfection, [consisting of diverse] intellectual conveniences and physical tools, was particular to man, it is clear that, although the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms preceded him in [the temporal order of] existence, the ultimate aim of all of them was him. And it is said, ‘the first in thought is the last in action.’”
(The Paradise of Submission,page# 29)
Again sujjawal - Here Tusi is referring not to physical realm, but in the spiritual realm. It's believed that the entire universe was conceived instantaneously, and gradually manifested into physical, temporal world. I guess that's what agakhani is trying to say, that life most certainly existed pre-Adam [I am not denying that, and no one does], but it all came to manifest [or actualized] gradually; however these worlds are completely separate [mineral, vegetative, animal, human, angelic]. What Tusi is referring to by joining these worlds, is in spiritual sense and not necessarily temporal sense.
If a man doesn't use his intellect and sense of discrimination to distinguish good from bad [haqq & batill], then his spiritual status will fall lower than the animal. However, if the man uses right judgement, obedience and acquiring knowledge of tawhid, then his spiritual status can elevate higher than angels.
agakhani wrote:Off course and everyone should care about our wonderful tradition, and that is what our MHI wants from us too.the only thing you care about is the ginans,
The other reason I do not know Arabic and I do not know which quranic tranlation is good and which quranic translation is bad so I rely on ginans which are written in my own language which I read, write and understand very well and hold doctorate degree in it. According Sultan Mohd Shah (s.a.) "ginans are tafshir of Quran"!!
Now back to the creation I can give you as many as references you want besides ginans in which you can also find whatever I wrote above is true i.e. the creation of whole universe was made step by step and human being created/born many years after the creation.
Islamic and Persian literature are not enough to judge or make any bold comments therefore you and we all have to read other religions literature as well to come final judgement. It is 100% possible that your meaning may be right as bro Admin says that there are many meaning about 7 days creation!! so no hard feeling here.
Dear agakhani - I think you should study ginans and that's what you are doing, which is great. You gave a very good reason as to why, which is very understandable, that you don't understand Arabic and you don't rely on the translations.
Same goes by me: I don't understand the language in which ginanas are composed, so for me to study ginans would be first learn the language in which they are composed, then i can study; however we have Qasidas in our traditions which I can study. We have other great books [i.e. paradise of submission, and there are many many more that i can name; the list would be endless] from previous Dai's in my native language which I can study, and I can gain the same knowledge as you are getting form the ginans. So, I guess you can't force everyone to study ginan, is what's my point. Like I said before, I don't understand ginan, but I have menses respect for them.
About creation: The creation of heavens and earth was instantaneously in a blink of an eye; however, the evolution of it took time. The 7 days doesn't mean the physical creation; but the evolution of humanity [not life on earth!].
I don't believe we need to study any other religion; because I am most certain that we can find all answers looking at Islamic accounts in general and in Ismaili accounts in particular.
That is your personal matter whether to study other religion or not but our current MHI and SMS has told us in many farmans to study other religion literature too!! if you like to know I can put date and place where these kind farmans were made.I don't believe we need to study any other religion; because I am most certain that we can find all answers looking at Islamic accounts in general and in Ismaili accounts in particular.
About the all answers:-
Sorry, I do not agree with your above comments that 'we can find all the answers looking at Islamic accounts generally or particularly'. period. therefore we have to study and find out answers from different sources.
So are you saying that Islam is not complete? Then why God said 'today I have perfected your religion Islam'? Do you not believe in that?agakhani wrote:
Sorry, I do not agree with your above comments that 'we can find all the answers looking at Islamic accounts generally or particularly'. period. therefore we have to study and find out answers from different sources.
I believe we can find the answer we are looking for from the Qur'an. It's very possible that we as mustajibs don't have the capacity [or understanding] of symbolism and mysticism in the Qur'an. As one of our great Imams [Jaf'ar e Sadiq] has said that Qur'an as 4 categories of Ayahs. a) Declaratives [Ebaraats]: This is for the ummah [Awaam], examples would be to pray. b) Hints [Esharaat], this would be for special categories of people, such as Da'is Pirs. c) Lataif [Parables] This is for Awliah of God [Friends of God], examples of this would be various stories/parables which may look just like simple stories on the surface but has very deep spiritual meaning, i.e. story of Hz Yusuf, Hz Musa, etc.. 4) haqaheeq [truths] this is for the Prophets and the Imams.
Now we may read and study Qur'an, but it depends on which level we are able to grasp and understand it. Our understand is subjective and directly related to our capacity, which does not imply that the answer isn't there.
No I do not say or think that Islam is not complete Islam was not completed til the event of Gadir -e-Khum and then after appointment of H. Ali as prophet Mohammed successor it was completed as per Quran's ayas. but here we are talking about Islamic literature which can guide us and answers all our question and there is a none.So are you saying that Islam is not complete? Then why God said 'today I have perfected your religion Islam'? Do you not believe in that?
Ya Ali Madad.
to all scholars on Academic of religion.
How earth or soul came into being.Search what Imam has said and not
Dai or Pirs,Their word can be 100% taken for granted even prophet made mistakes.
I wish some or many of you study the Book earlier tahn Quran in order
from earliest to latter ones.
The same ALI spoke,try to find the simplicity of word n language in all book going from simple to tough in Quran as phase of prophet advanced the stages of intellect.
seven heaven are co related to prophets, intellect and also our Khidmat majlis practiced by Khoja traditions.
Study of above book and comparing will give good research to scholars
and can surprise the world with matching vocabulary of ALI/MHI farmans n speeches.
to all scholars on Academic of religion.
How earth or soul came into being.Search what Imam has said and not
Dai or Pirs,Their word can be 100% taken for granted even prophet made mistakes.
I wish some or many of you study the Book earlier tahn Quran in order
from earliest to latter ones.
The same ALI spoke,try to find the simplicity of word n language in all book going from simple to tough in Quran as phase of prophet advanced the stages of intellect.
seven heaven are co related to prophets, intellect and also our Khidmat majlis practiced by Khoja traditions.
Study of above book and comparing will give good research to scholars
and can surprise the world with matching vocabulary of ALI/MHI farmans n speeches.