www.ismaili.net

tret wrote:

nuseri wrote:...They are just trying to weaken n confuse the members ...

This coming from a *mahrifati* or *attorney of Ali*, seems unbelievable.

If one's belief and faith/Iman is weaken or shaken by just words of someone, then either my words or powerful, or your faith is already weak, and not really faith, but doubt.

This is the difference between you (members a like) and me; My faith/Iman is not shaken a bit, no matter what you say/claim; however, yours (members a like) are shaken/weaken/confused, simply by words, and yet you guys are claiming that you have found Allah? It's amazing...

A sage was showing a layman the moon by pointing with his finger; the layman was looking at his finger as opposed to the moon.


Now my challenge is extended to all participants who claim Ali is Allah.

please describe what do you perceive as Allah? It could be the Allah that you come to understand is not the same as Muslims do? Then that would explain, for sure.

Everyone of you goes to silence, when asked this question. Even the *PHD*.

It isn't a matter of silence - it's matter of how much more can we dumb ourselves down to get you and sheri to grasp the concept..
It is a matter of recognising that the other side is not interested in learning at all - but rather in ramming their interpretation down' everyone else's throat.

Both of you asked for Farmans - we provided Farmans - and references.
You went as far as to say that there was no such thing as PreAlid Imams - when Tusi - disagreed with you..not only did Tusi disagree with you - the Imam Mustawdas (the Pirs from Ahl-e-Bayt) disagreed with you - thus we got the Old Du'a which has the names of the Pre-Alid Imams.
Sheri claimed that the concept of Ali-Allah wasn't present in the Old Du'a in any version - when we have the text proclaiming otherwise - on top of that - we have the 2 Mission Conference references of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - talking about Ali-Allah and endorsing it- now these are in English and are Farmans that are modern era - so you can't even challenge those...but you seem to gloss over those - so how will I explain to you what I perceive...
According to you and Sheri - you are way beyond our understanding.
And speaking of pluralism - your comment about hindu ismailism clearly shows where you stand - in terms of pluralism - which is against the imam's farmans.

Do you even know what Islam is? Islam isn't Arabic culture - Islam is universal - it is about acceptance.
When the Imam says - anyone that proclaims the Shahadah is a muslim - there is nothing there about anything else - yet you're choosing to be the decision maker on our faith and calling us UnIslamic Ismailies.

So since when did the Central Asian Tradition become higher than the Satpanthi or Pir Sadardeen Tradition?

You don't accept Ali-Allah - that's not our issue - but rather yours.

As Hazrat Ali once stated - make sure you're listening to listen - not listening to respond.

What you and Sheri are apparently looking for - is for people to say - aah - these people have evolved - they understand ismailism.

Now - if you look at the Imam as the intercessor - as the Imam Al Mustawda only - then He isn't the Imam Mustaqar - or the Noor of Imamah - which is different...and to the world that's the role that Imam plays almost all of the time.

If you look at the Imam as the goal - as the IMAM - then that noor is the Noor of Allah.

I don't think I need evidence to prove to myself anything - nor to anyone else..

Please don't go around preaching that your interpretation of Ismailism is correct.
With you whole siratul ikhlas argument - you are proclaiming ala Shafik Sachedina - to claim to know what the Imam was thinking ..."Imam thinks in French but speaks in English" thus His Farmans need to be edited.

If you had all the answers - as you pretend to - you'd have a lot more humility to respect other viewpoints.


to Sheri's point - this isn't someone's translation of the farman - but how farmans and other documentation was recorded in the day - it is standard practice to attribute the quote.

I think for Sheri and you, these grapes have become sour - you came looking for a fan club and adulation - ...had you stuck to your pluralisitic stance - that might have happened - yet you became bitter and partisan and patronizing.


Whatever you want to believe - all the more power to you.
You want to go and do Namaz - all the more power to you.
As someone that has spent a lot of time recently in both Central Asia, Syria and China - i'll tell you - that it's not standard practice anymore for Ismailies to go to the mosques and pray.
It never was in Tajikistan - because for the most part it was under communist rule - and religion was forbidden - most Tajikis - were brought into the faith and made aware of the faith at the age of 18...so the question of the namaz doesn't come into play...now you'll challenge this - but i have it on first hand knowledge and research to challenge you on that...anyways..
Our Faith allows many interpretations and pluralism contrary to what you and sheri have been preaching.

I think - this debate is over - with the Farmans of not only Aga Ali Shah, Hasan Ali Shah but statements from the Mission Conferences shared as well.

Now as i've stated before - you want to turn away from the noon day sun and deny it - that's nothing I can do about that...
and if i am hallucinating - I am happy in that ...as are others.


Lastly - old Du'a again.

"Ali Mohammed Yak Khuda, Haq Shanasi Dafe Bala"
My transliteration maybe incorrect.
3x a day that was stated every day..and we still say Ali=Allah 3x a day..whether we accept it or not..you just don't see it.

Shams.

ShamsB wrote:
It isn't a matter of silence - it's matter of how much more can we dumb ourselves down to get you and sheri to grasp the concept..
It is a matter of recognising that the other side is not interested in learning at all - but rather in ramming their interpretation down' everyone else's throat.

Both of you asked for Farmans - we provided Farmans - and references.
You went as far as to say that there was no such thing as PreAlid Imams - when Tusi - disagreed with you..not only did Tusi disagree with you - the Imam Mustawdas (the Pirs from Ahl-e-Bayt) disagreed with you - thus we got the Old Du'a which has the names of the Pre-Alid Imams.
Sheri claimed that the concept of Ali-Allah wasn't present in the Old Du'a in any version - when we have the text proclaiming otherwise - on top of that - we have the 2 Mission Conference references of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - talking about Ali-Allah and endorsing it- now these are in English and are Farmans that are modern era - so you can't even challenge those...but you seem to gloss over those - so how will I explain to you what I perceive...
According to you and Sheri - you are way beyond our understanding.
And speaking of pluralism - your comment about hindu ismailism clearly shows where you stand - in terms of pluralism - which is against the imam's farmans.

Do you even know what Islam is? Islam isn't Arabic culture - Islam is universal - it is about acceptance.
When the Imam says - anyone that proclaims the Shahadah is a muslim - there is nothing there about anything else - yet you're choosing to be the decision maker on our faith and calling us UnIslamic Ismailies.

So since when did the Central Asian Tradition become higher than the Satpanthi or Pir Sadardeen Tradition?

You don't accept Ali-Allah - that's not our issue - but rather yours.

As Hazrat Ali once stated - make sure you're listening to listen - not listening to respond.

What you and Sheri are apparently looking for - is for people to say - aah - these people have evolved - they understand ismailism.

Now - if you look at the Imam as the intercessor - as the Imam Al Mustawda only - then He isn't the Imam Mustaqar - or the Noor of Imamah - which is different...and to the world that's the role that Imam plays almost all of the time.

If you look at the Imam as the goal - as the IMAM - then that noor is the Noor of Allah.

I don't think I need evidence to prove to myself anything - nor to anyone else..

Please don't go around preaching that your interpretation of Ismailism is correct.
With you whole siratul ikhlas argument - you are proclaiming ala Shafik Sachedina - to claim to know what the Imam was thinking ..."Imam thinks in French but speaks in English" thus His Farmans need to be edited.

If you had all the answers - as you pretend to - you'd have a lot more humility to respect other viewpoints.


to Sheri's point - this isn't someone's translation of the farman - but how farmans and other documentation was recorded in the day - it is standard practice to attribute the quote.

I think for Sheri and you, these grapes have become sour - you came looking for a fan club and adulation - ...had you stuck to your pluralisitic stance - that might have happened - yet you became bitter and partisan and patronizing.


Whatever you want to believe - all the more power to you.
You want to go and do Namaz - all the more power to you.
As someone that has spent a lot of time recently in both Central Asia, Syria and China - i'll tell you - that it's not standard practice anymore for Ismailies to go to the mosques and pray.
It never was in Tajikistan - because for the most part it was under communist rule - and religion was forbidden - most Tajikis - were brought into the faith and made aware of the faith at the age of 18...so the question of the namaz doesn't come into play...now you'll challenge this - but i have it on first hand knowledge and research to challenge you on that...anyways..
Our Faith allows many interpretations and pluralism contrary to what you and sheri have been preaching.

I think - this debate is over - with the Farmans of not only Aga Ali Shah, Hasan Ali Shah but statements from the Mission Conferences shared as well.

Now as i've stated before - you want to turn away from the noon day sun and deny it - that's nothing I can do about that...
and if i am hallucinating - I am happy in that ...as are others.


Lastly - old Du'a again.

"Ali Mohammed Yak Khuda, Haq Shanasi Dafe Bala"
My transliteration maybe incorrect.
3x a day that was stated every day..and we still say Ali=Allah 3x a day..whether we accept it or not..you just don't see it.

Shams.

Shams - Trust me, I am here to learn; but give me reasonable explanation. You suggested Paradise of Submission, and I am glad you did, and I found it a wonderful piece of work. Thanks for that reference.

I am still not sure, why are you getting the impression of me shoving my understandings down your throat? Like I said, no one's obliged to agree to anyone. Everyone's welcome to agree or disagree with me, and that's exactly you have been doing.

About Pre-Alid Imam/Imamah - I never denied Pre-Alid Imamah. I stated slightly different that yours. I stated that concept of Tah'wil existed since the beginning, and Imam is the one who does the Tah'wil. Pre-Ali, it was Wasi or [Legatee] such as Aron, who was doing Tah'wil who's rank [hadd] to H. Mousa is the same as Maula Ali's to Prophet Muhammad. You call Aron an Imam; where as I call Him Asas [Wasi/Legatee]. But the concept of Taw'hil remains the same. So, I never refused it.


The question that I am asking, is very simple and I don't want you to make yourself dumber. A very simple question, needs a very simple answer.

Just in your own words and understanding, explain in a line or two (or a paragraph or two, as you please), how do you preceive Allah? If Imam is Allah, then who is Allah?

If you have truly studied Paradise of Submission, then the following is from the second "Tasawwur 2", which I quote here:

Tasawur 2:

Question: Some people say that the origin of existence is one, some say it is two, some say it is three, and some maintain it is gour. How do you conceive of this?

Answer: I conceive the source (mabda') of existence to be one, and that one [is] His Almight and Holy Command (amr-i u ta'ala wa taqaddas), which is also called the Word (kalima). The first being, which came into existence through absolute origination (ibda-i-mahd) from the Command without any mediation, was the First Intellect ('aql-i-awwal). Other things came into existence through intermediaries from the Command, such as the Soul (nafs) through the mediation of the Intellect, and Matter (hayula), Nature (tabi'at) and Body (jism) through the mediation of the Soul.

So, if you accept work of Tusi about Pre-Alid Imam, then do you accept Tusi's work about the creation in this passage?
If you do, or if you don't; then what is your understanding about this passage?

You say 3x a day we say Ali=Allah; but you also recite 3x a day surah Ikhlas. So, does one negate the other?


I have put up a link a few reply ago; I really doubt anyone would bother reading it. I am not sure if you took the time to read it; but here's a quote from Maula Ali

“I am the Sign of the All-Powerful. I am the Gnosis of the Mysteries. I am the Threshold of Thresholds. I am the companion of the radiance of the divine Majesty. I am the First and the Last, the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the Face of God. I am the mirror of God, the supreme Pen, the Tabula secreta.”
- Imām ‘Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib,
(Khuṭbah al-Bayān, Shah-Kazemi, Justice and Remembrance, 187)

Now, this statement is very powerful. If someone like agakhani reads this, he would start shooting everyone who says anything but Ali is Allah..

But, read and reflect "I am the Sign of the All-Powerful", "Face of God", "Mirror of God", "First and Last", "Manifest and Hidden"

These are all for Nur of Imamah. <Please, these are my understanding, and I am sharing it with you. If you have different understanding, please share it so we can learn>




Similarly, the following is from Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq's

“Indeed, Allah created us and formed us, and gave us the most perfect form. He made us His Eye over His Servants, and His Speaking Tongue, through which He speaks to His Servants. We are His Open Hand, extended with Mercy and Kindness to His Servants. We are His Face, through which He is reached, and the Gate which indicates upon Him. We are His reservoir in the heavens and Earth. Through us, the trees grow and the fruits are ripened. Through us the rivers flow, and through us the succour of the skies comes down. We plant the grasses of the Earth. Through our worship, Allah is worshipped. If it were not for us, Allah would not be worshipped.”
- Im&#257;m Ja‘far al-&#7778;&#257;diq,
(al-Kulayni, Us&#363;l al-K&#257;fi, 1:144)

I am sharing with you all this, and my understanding and I am open to share and learn. But, you are only making referencing to x3 time. Please note, in the presence of Pir[Hujjat], the knowledge of Imam is sent to murid via Hujjat[Pir]. The Farameen-e-Mubarak that were quoted -- provided that the translations are accurate [such as Sign of Allah, and not Sahi Allah] -- are very powerful and must be transmitted to murid via Hujjat[Pir] of the time, so murid can digest and understand.

Please if you reference any Farmaan of MHI [Maulana Shah Karim] that states Ali[Imam] is Allah, I'd really love to see that. This is important because MHI is both Shah[Imam] and Pir[Hujjat], and hence MHI deliver HIS knowledge directly to murids.


Islam is universal faith, no doubt about that, and I never asserted that Islam is an Arabic faith. I also agree with you that MHI said whoever accept the Shahada is a muslim.

so let's focus on this very simple fact. When you say the Shahada, basically do you mean that "There's no Allah[or Ali] but Allah[or Ali] and Muhammad is Allah[or Ali]'s messenger", or something like that?


So, all I am saying is when you say Ali = Allah, I need you to give an explanation or your reasoning based on Ismaili theology and Islam. Believe me you, that I am genuine when I say, I am trying to learn, and not to respond. All the references that I provided are from Imams and Tusi [Which you implied that you have read his work].

Ya Ali Madad.
for me the word 'Allah' is nothing but a signature name of ALI in almost all pages of Quran.
It can be million life cycles of a human to understand this one word.
I will stand by my conviction even at the cost of physical life of this phase.
If recognized preachers of Persian origin would have down even down graded from
preaching ALI ALI to one step downgrade of ALI Allah( at time confusing)
there would not have been a single persian Ismaili coverts today.
Allah is nothing but a word a name used by ALI as his signature as God.
the word itself is a small puzzle to decode it.
It could have taken the real Nuseri of 1370 years back with conviction of Ali Allah
to come to term of of equating Ali with Allah but ALI is greater than Allah.

A historian with baatin grasp a French man Henry Corbin,his work is acknowledge by MHI n alsoa part of IIS sylaabus,who was an expert of persian
doctrine said just translating of his in depth understanding of rich Persian
poem saying that ALI is greater than Allah.
Even those atHaqiqati level will have simple entry level question on the word Allah.
their two word status answer may not even qualify for them for entry into Baatin.
the word Allah at Zahir level is Shariat.(ticket to hell).
again at Zahir level Allah asGOD with ALI as Imam.
is tariqat.(shia doctrine).
the word Allah identified/equated with ALI is Haqiqat.( it is an internal conviction among Ismailes after going thru of many life cycles of above.

Now identifying the the Noor of ALI with you n communicate is Marifat.
every Ismaili has potential to become like Pir.Jesus Christ.
It was is short very tactfully said in two line of the conference
with the word varing level of Inspiration/conviction and further on
communicate with GOD.

A child of first grade in school is rightfully taught about water
is rain,playing, drinking washing, bathing.etc etc.
Now the same text book of grade 3 is telling that Water is two part hydrogen and one part of oxygen and are told if want to pass the grade
they would have to write is as H20 in exam papers.

So a adamant,ignorant or retarded child refusing to see the book of grade 3.
because he is still not there or has disbelief in REAL status n composition
of water.
It's better taking water as an example to leave one with its own varying levels of inspiration.
Let Admin see what post are needed in this forum for future generations to read.
AB TO ALI AUR ALI
SIRF ALI ALI ALI

( THE WORD ALLAH IS NO WHERE TO SEEN OR HEARD).
It is wasting of precious life cycles on earth on pondering on that word like a fool/ignorant/retarded/blinded.

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
for me the word 'Allah' is nothing but a signature name of ALI in almost all pages of Quran.
It can be million life cycles of a human to understand this one word.
I will stand by my conviction even at the cost of physical life of this phase.
If recognized preachers of Persian origin would have down even down graded from
preaching ALI ALI to one step downgrade of ALI Allah( at time confusing)
there would not have been a single persian Ismaili coverts today.
Allah is nothing but a word a name used by ALI as his signature as God.
the word itself is a small puzzle to decode it.
It could have taken the real Nuseri of 1370 years back with conviction of Ali Allah
to come to term of of equating Ali with Allah but ALI is greater than Allah.

A historian with baatin grasp a French man Henry Corbin,his work is acknowledge by MHI n alsoa part of IIS sylaabus,who was an expert of persian
doctrine said just translating of his in depth understanding of rich Persian
poem saying that ALI is greater than Allah.
Even those atHaqiqati level will have simple entry level question on the word Allah.
their two word status answer may not even qualify for them for entry into Baatin.
the word Allah at Zahir level is Shariat.(ticket to hell).
again at Zahir level Allah asGOD with ALI as Imam.
is tariqat.(shia doctrine).
the word Allah identified/equated with ALI is Haqiqat.( it is an internal conviction among Ismailes after going thru of many life cycles of above.

Now identifying the the Noor of ALI with you n communicate is Marifat.
every Ismaili has potential to become like Pir.Jesus Christ.
It was is short very tactfully said in two line of the conference
with the word varing level of Inspiration/conviction and further on
communicate with GOD.

A child of first grade in school is rightfully taught about water
is rain,playing, drinking washing, bathing.etc etc.
Now the same text book of grade 3 is telling that Water is two part hydrogen and one part of oxygen and are told if want to pass the grade
they would have to write is as H20 in exam papers.

So a adamant,ignorant or retarded child refusing to see the book of grade 3.
because he is still not there or has disbelief in REAL status n composition
of water.
It's better taking water as an example to leave one with its own varying levels of inspiration.
Let Admin see what post are needed in this forum for future generations to read.
AB TO ALI AUR ALI
SIRF ALI ALI ALI

( THE WORD ALLAH IS NO WHERE TO SEEN OR HEARD).
It is wasting of precious life cycles on earth on pondering on that word like a fool/ignorant/retarded/blinded.

nuseri - see how Henri cobin alludes about Imamat at this link. Please take the time to read.


http://ismailignosis.com/2012/08/15/the ... ns-of-ali/

The following is from Mantiq-ul-Tyre [The Conference of Birds] of Att'ar, which I think is relevant to our discussion.

One night, the moths gathered together, tormented by the desire to unite themselves with the candle. All of them said : "We must find one who can give us some news of that for which we seek so earnestly." One of the moths went to a castle afar off, and saw within the light of a candle. He came back and told the others what he had seen, and began to describe the candle as intelligently as he was able to do. But the wise moth, who was chief of their assembly, observed : "He has no real information to give us of the candle." Another moth visited the candle ;he passed close to the light and drew near to it. With his
wings, he touched the flames of that which he desired: the heat of the candle drove him back, and he was vanquished. He also returned, and revealed something of the mystery, in explaining a little of what union with the candle meant, but the wise moth said to him : "Thine explanation is of no more real worth than that of thy comrade." A third moth rose up, intoxicated with love, to hurt himself violently into the flame of the candle. He threw himself forward and stretched out his antennae towards the flame. As he entered completely into its embrace, his members became red like the flame itself. When the wise moth
saw from afar that the candle had identified the moth with itself, and had given to it its own light, he said : "This moth has accomplished his desire; but he alone comprehends that to which he has attained. None other knows it, and that is all."

In truth, it is he who lost all knowledge and all trace of his own existence who has at the same time found knowledge of the Beloved. So long as you will not ignore your own body and soul, how will you ever know the Object of your love? He who has given you some indication thereof, by that means plunges your soul deep in torment, but since not even the breath of life is admitted here, none can attain to this and live.

The Candle is symbolized as God. Mankind doesn't know God entirely or his unity, until unless one dies before he dies or renounce his life and all its attachments. These are sufi concept of the path to mahrifat. Anyone who claims who found God or God's unity, without renouncing his life and every attachments of it, is simply in denial. Now, realistically we all know -- for any ordinary man like us -- it's almost impossible to renounce life, as we know we have our life, wife, kids, business, school, works etc... We can not simply give everything up, and march to the quest of mahrifat. That's exactly the reason why we need to balance between Din and Dunya and that's the world of faith. The intersection between spiritual world and temporal[material] world is world of faith.

So, I guess the message is, that until, unless we don't entirely renounce our life and burn into the flames of the candle like the moth, we don't truly acquire the unity of God. That's why unity with God remains mystery until we renounce life entirely.

ShamsB wrote:

kmaherali wrote:I agree with _thaillestlunatic_ that it means the same.

During the first Ismaili Mission conference MSMS made the following remark on the issue:

"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested to add just one word in Dua, and then they said, everything is alright. I said what is that one word. • They said "Instead of Ali Allah' to say 'Ali-un-wali-Allah. So I said you better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You arc ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong.

A murid had an encounter with the late Imam and compiled an article about it which can be acceesed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ea3f65e378

On this particular issue it says:

"The first thing he (the Imam) had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept. "

My interpretation of the issue is that "Ali Sahi Allah" is more definitive and categorical that Ali is indeed Allah. Ali Allah can be vague and hence provides the bridge for those who do not have the capacity to accept "Ali Sahi Allah" or are not too sure about it and want to confirm it through their own search.

Here is more documentation for Sheri's benefit - since in one post - she quoted as the older Imam's farmans not being recorded correctly.

This was the 1956 mission conference - the notes are well documented and by a number of people.
And the Imam did speak in English - your local ITREB should have these notes.
Shams

Shams - can you clarify this thought on your above claim.

The old dua has not been changed since the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (the Pir Sadardin dua posted on this website and on the following link).

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

In the dua you will notice the word "Aliy'uallah." This word is still the same in its original form in the new dua. So, which word was changed by IMAM SMS to please the jamat? I think the request was to add "wa aliyyun waliyyu-llah" and the IMAM denied, so there was no fundamental change. Is that right or have I misinterpreted your earlier post

Ya Ali madad.
Even devil challenged Allah's order, so it not amusing see million devil
challenging Imams Farmans.
there are many level of material describing ALI at different level
writtens at theit level of Inspiration.
A person reading thesis on Hydrology will different view on water with high school student telling water is H2O and nursery student teaching of water ae seen by him in daily use.
Each can argue endlessly.
we in our ismaili data also have many levels as below.
YOU ARE WAHT SYALLABUS YOU READ N ADOPT.
1.Farmans of Imams.(spoken word by ALI).
2.Ayats of Quran only if blessed with Baatin understanding.(words of ALI
spoken out of prophet).
3.written word of recognized by Imams.( word written of out of divine blessing.)persian one's recognized are only Nasir khusraw n Shams Tabriz.
4. saying and doctrine of great sufis,man of deep understanding.
like attar,rumi.qadi noman.etc.
5.wrtitten material with good insight of historians n academic scholars
lime corbin.massingon,Ivanoe isani, azim nanji.IIS authors etc

6.At rational level statements of leaders,minutes of conference.etc.

At all level more than million words are available to almost all.
the debate for one word or entity can go on forever because at lowest
level will different to highest level words.
Our faith is going from Shariat to marifat not vice versa.
All level to move up n up.

With one word from ALI for meditation.
one is a WINNER with that word n not million word of conviction or some even trash is needed to know n feel him.
now I see cunning ones going down to level 5 n level material to escape n deny the truth of level one.
I can only advocate at level of street level with sunlight n level above
it.but not at gutter level 2 levels down below the street.
Admin know who is up to what.
thank him for giving the devils time n space.

sheri wrote:

ShamsB wrote:

kmaherali wrote:I agree with _thaillestlunatic_ that it means the same.

During the first Ismaili Mission conference MSMS made the following remark on the issue:

"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested to add just one word in Dua, and then they said, everything is alright. I said what is that one word. • They said "Instead of Ali Allah' to say 'Ali-un-wali-Allah. So I said you better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You arc ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong.

A murid had an encounter with the late Imam and compiled an article about it which can be acceesed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ea3f65e378

On this particular issue it says:

"The first thing he (the Imam) had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept. "

My interpretation of the issue is that "Ali Sahi Allah" is more definitive and categorical that Ali is indeed Allah. Ali Allah can be vague and hence provides the bridge for those who do not have the capacity to accept "Ali Sahi Allah" or are not too sure about it and want to confirm it through their own search.

Here is more documentation for Sheri's benefit - since in one post - she quoted as the older Imam's farmans not being recorded correctly.

This was the 1956 mission conference - the notes are well documented and by a number of people.
And the Imam did speak in English - your local ITREB should have these notes.
Shams

Shams - can you clarify this thought on your above claim.

The old dua has not been changed since the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (the Pir Sadardin dua posted on this website and on the following link).

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

In the dua you will notice the word "Aliy'uallah." This word is still the same in its original form in the new dua. So, which word was changed by IMAM SMS to please the jamat? I think the request was to add "wa aliyyun waliyyu-llah" and the IMAM denied, so there was no fundamental change. Is that right or have I misinterpreted your earlier post

Here is where the fundamental issue is -
The Imam is saying - Ali Allah in the Du'a and changing that would alter the meaning of the du'a, and it is our ignorance and not the dua that is wrong.

So once again - you have documented proof of the Imam telling you Ali Allah is in the old Du'a.
Now is the Imam wrong? coz that is what you're implying.

The other issue Sheri - in one of your other posts -you refused to accept Dr. Nathoo's account - why the change now?

Read the top part of the quote - not the bottom - wherein it is a legitimate document/record on the Farman of the Imam.

That alone should tell you what the words were in the Old Du'a.

Now if you don't accept what the Imam is saying - then that is a different issue altogether and this is a moot point.

Another thing to note - read what the poster is saying about the whole change from Ali Sahi Allah to Ali Allah to Aliyun Allah - in simpler terms - water whether in a glass or the ocean; is water. The qualities are the same.
We can't drink the ocean - but a glass of water is more palpable and comprehensible to the Human Mind.


Though at this point - i feel that we've given enough definitive evidence of Ali-Allah - just based on the Farmans of the Imam
so to me - this debate is over - because for an Ismaili - the Imam's Farmans are to be above all else. Nothing else should matter.
And in this instance - I mean both the Imam Mustawda (PIR) and Imam Mustaqar (SHAH). And to clarify in this instance Pir is exclusive to those individuals appointed Pirs during their lifetimes and were from Ahl-e-Bayt - not posthumous pirs.

In regards to Sheri's post on the Pir being Allah -
The Prophet has reportedly said " Ana wa Aliyin min noorin Wahid"

I and Ali are from one noor.

That in itself answers all questions, and further evidence is in the Farman of the Imam.
Pir/Imam Mustawda embodies Jamali/Motherly attributes - thus the Talikah of the Imam -says Maternal
Shah/Imam Mustaqar embodies Jalali/Fatherly attributes - thus the Talikah of the Imam says Paternal

As the Prophet was our first Pir - all the following Pirs - like the Imams have the same light within them. In this instance I don't use the word Pir as a title - meaning Teacher or Dai - but rather Imam al Mustawda.

The reason we refer to Hasan as Imam Hasan is that he was the Imam al Mustawda of the time - and Husayn was Imam Mustaqar. Hasan was our 2nd Pir.

Pir Sadardeen in Ginan has said:
"Nabi Mohammad Bujo Bhai - to Tame Paamo Imam"
In the same ginan Pir Sadardeen states:
"Allah ehi Imam"

Now - let the battle on the status of Ginans begin ....

FYI - I will be travelling to remote places/jamats for some work over the next few weeks and will not be posting.
And as it is - this discussion has run it's course.

Shams, I hope you can address some of the questions that I have raised regarding the words that were changed. I have raised a similar concern in the "Books" forum ---> Asal Dua. Would be interested in your thoughts.

I have not had the chance to validate the "Vadi Firman" quoted, so I won't comment on that. However, everything else that you have claimed has a flaw in the evidence provided.

Dua - there was no change. Old dua has Aliyuallah. New dua has Aliyuallah.

Ali'yuallah as I earlier defined means "Ali chosen by Allah" or "Ali from Allah"

Old Dua - there are two versions floating around. One has Hindu concepts (Haji Bibi link), while the other one does not have Hindu concepts (posted on this website). So, which one is correct.

Ginans - They were right for the time to convert the Hindu to Muslims. Therefore, the ones with Hindu concepts are either being changed or shelved.

Firman - Yes, I accept the firman with Noor of Alllah. However, if you claim that Pir and IMAM both were Allah at any level, then Hazart Muhammad was also Allah. This claim is just outrageous, regardless of it being at a physical, spiritual or marifat level. This will never be supported in the Islamic doctrines. I still need to check the Vadi JK firman.

So far, nothing substantial quoted that would lead me to agree with your hypothesis. I hope the Vadi Firman exists, and the original translation is what you have quote so we can settle this matter.

Please note the starting of all these firmans: "Imam Aga Ali Shah told." This implies that the IMAM is not the author of these firmans. These are written by some 3rd person, who is QUOTING IMAM SMS. Otherwise the use of "Imam Aga Ali Shah told" would not be necessitated.

Imam Hasan Ali Shah remain present when those farmans was translated and delivered by Imam Ali Shah, who was pir joma at that time.

Not in U.S.A. but in India, Pakistan and other countries, MHI delivered farmans in English and then after a translator translate it in local language that does not mean that farman is not made by MHI!!??

Old dua has Aliyuallah. New dua has Aliyuallah.

Nope that is white lie, I have old du'a in Khojki and also in Gujarati in both
it is clearly quoted (ALI SAHI ALLAH) and that du'a are not composed a third party by pir Sadardin him slef. the old dua you are referring is a translated dua and it is translator's mistake.

Would you like to have proof of above du'as?

Sorry that du'a are not for you damn Tret sorry Sheri because you do not deserve it , YOU ARE A "ABU JAHAL" OF THIS TIME!!!. you know who was Abu Jahal? if not let me know, I will put it here.

agakhani wrote:Imam Hasan Ali Shah's farrman # 3

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Imam Hasan Ali Shah told: One day prophet Mohd was sited with his holy family then bibi Fateha (s..a.) asked him: hai dad! please show me the Allah? then rasool told her that Allah's hand on Imam hussein. at this moments H. Ali put his own hand on the head of Imam hussein, then bibi Fatema told with joy "mowla Ali him self is the Allah - Allah sahi Allah. Mumbai Aasho sanwat date 25 sanwat 1928 , Date 25th year 1872.

This is fabricated hadith. Please post original Arabic, book and page, Narrator, chain of narrators..

It is impossible, Bibi Fatema would say Ali is Allah in presence of Prophet without being corrected.

nuseri wrote: for me the word 'Allah' is nothing but a signature name of ALI in almost all pages of Quran.

Note, the debate is not about vocabulary, it's rather about the concept.

Shams asserted the concept of Imamah pre-Alid, and backed his argument by referencing work of Tusi's, which I concurred with him.
Our dispute was only on usage of terminology such as Imam[as Shams asserted] and Wasi/Legatee/Asas[as I asserted]. We both refer to the same
essence and concept of Tah'wil of the divine message. Therefore, I concur with Shams on this topic of Pre-Alid Imamah.

However, regarding concept of Allah/God, it's not simply the matter of vocabulary and terminology; it's rather the concept, which can
lead you to different direction and based on the direction you take can change your belief and value system.

So, according to you above quote, Allah doesn't exist, but Ali does! This is what you imply.

However, few moons ago, you asserted something like 'God is within me'

I see some contradiction in your responses and thoughts.

Farameen of Imams are their divine noor and hidayat. I equally quoted the Farameen of Maula Ali, and Imam Jaf'ar ul-Sadiq. Please refer and read.

You referenced Henry Corbin's work; I provided a link to ismailignosis, where Henry has alluded about the concept of Imamah and its relationship to Subhana tahala.

Please let's spare the story of children playing in water park and what not. It's getting old and boring and every has past that.

The message of Islam is to understand the Almighty Allah and HIS oneness, which is free of any type of association.

This is the very foundation of message of Islam, where MHI has referenced repeatedly that it's the common bond that unites all Muslims and even all Abrahemic faith. What you allude is totally contradicts this essence and message of Islam in general and Ismaili in particular, because Tawheed is the very first principal of Ismaili.

However, I concur with your assertion that every individual has a spark of that divine nur in them and has the potential to elevate to higher spheres by purification of one's soul and receiving divine knowledge from the Imam of the Time.

Observing you reference Varying level of inspiration, you seem to unconsciously admit what was approved by MHI about the concept of Imam; but simply have your version of understanding, which is totally okay.

Let me provide you my understanding by varying level of inspiration.

When you get inspired, it's to find the mysteries of the spiritual realm; however, if you already claim to have reached God (which according to you Ali = Allah), then there won't be any motivation and inspiration to be found. There won't be any purpose to bandaghi and meditation. Because according to you, you have fulfilled your purpose and found Allah/God.

Inspiration is to find out according to your level of understanding the mysteries of the spiritual realm.

I agree ,sometimes I miss the ugly words but I will be more vigilant in the future that this kind of posts also gets corrected or deleted. I rarely read al of the message in detail, usually I glance and if I catch impolite words, I delete them or delete the post.

It is impossible, Bibi Fatema would say Ali is Allah in presence of Prophet without being corrected.

It is possible and 100% possible because I say so!! if you have any question who am I? then let me know I will put more clarification one more time!

What Bibi Fatima said is as old as the compiled Quran is but what our Imams have said is very recent. And as I said many times each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of the previous Imam. For example when Shah Karim became our Imam, he said that and again in 1961 he said "I want you to remember the Farmans of my late Grandfather" (Dar es Salam ,Upanga JK, 7 Dec 1961 at 4:30pm and he also told me personnaly in 2010 that Farmans of previous Imams are also His Farmans because they are the Farmans of the Imam of the Time.

I agree ,sometimes I miss the ugly words but I will be more vigilant in the future that this kind of posts also gets corrected or deleted. I rarely read al of the message in detail, usually I glance and if I catch impolite words, I delete them or delete the post.

Yes, that is right Admin, you are half blind matter of fact you are 100% blind some times, because you are not read all the posts you just read only ZZNoor posts that is why I told you half blind.

Now look this what she wrote about me :-

One time she told me pig, the other time Bully next time she will award me some new titles matter of facts I already have too many titles awarded by readers for example "Abu Jahal"/Tret awarded a HIndu titles.

TO ABU JAHAL URFE TRET,

I WILL RATHER PREFER TO BE A HINDU RATHER TO BECOME "ABU JAHAL" LIKE YOU; HINDU AT LEAST BELIEVES KRISHNA AND RAMA'S BODHS, WHERE LOOK AT YOU ? DOES NOT BELIEVES WHAT IMAM HASAN ALI SHAH AND IMAM AGA ALI SHAH WROTE IN THEIR OWN FARMANS. SHAME TO YOU.

Admin,
Now back to point :is this OK with you? I only answered her titles then you usually delete my post, did I said any thing wrong : I just tell her my little piglet, are you seeing any bad words in it?

This is my own practice since I joined this forum not to afraid to tell the truth no matter, who is who? he or she; Admin or "Abu Jahal" - Tret , my piglet ZZNoor or true Ali lover Nuseri. or straight forward person ShmsB.

I believe words can be very powerful, and people demonstrate and exhibit their knowledge/intellect [or lack of knowledge/intellect] or their personality [or lack of personality], in their speech and deeds; and I simply quote one of Maula Ali's finest quotes to make my point.

A man reveals himself through his speech.

- Maula Ali

Let others be the judge.

Agakhani - here is the old dua (asal dua as you call it).

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 69&start=0

I hope you take the time to read the old dua. It has Aliyuallah and no mention of Hindu concepts.


Now here is the old dua from the haji bibi case. It does not have Aliyuallah and is filled with Hindu concepts.

http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1531123/


Both are claimed to have been written by Pir Sardardin. So, WHICH DUA IS RIGHT?

You should know that there is one Dua of Gatpat which was very long and a shorter version for evening recitation. There are no more hindu concept in the Asal Dua than there are Christian and Jew concept in the compiled Quran. It is the continuation of the same Satpanth-Sirat-al-Mustaqueem faith. The faith that follows the Imam. (Not the other way round)

Admin wrote:You should know that there is one Dua of Gatpat which was very long and a shorter version for evening recitation. There are no more hindu concept in the Asal Dua than there are Christian and Jew concept in the compiled Quran. It is the continuation of the same Satpanth-Sirat-al-Mustaqueem faith. The faith that follows the Imam. (Not the other way round)

Admin - Can you please give your POV on the old Du'a and current Du'a. Are they in harmony? or are there any big differences? Why it is referred as "Asal Du'a"? So does that make current Du'a a "not so Asal Du'a"?

I know of the old Du'a in Farsi, and that was recited long time a go, and no one's talking about that. But most all elder generation knows it.

Admin - I am not saying this. Both these dua's are in front of you. Please do a line by line comparison and you will figure out the differences. I guess you have not done the comparison.

They are exactly the same, except for the Hindu concepts.

It is not a Ghatpat dua, as both starts in the same way and contain alot of duplicate content.

Please read and compare both. ONLY ONE CAN BE THE RIGHT ONE.

Sheri,
Yes I know I do not believe what translators translate AND WROTE, I believe in original manuscript which I still have in Khojaki and Gujarati language in these TWO du'a books THE ORIGINAL WORD USED IS 'ALI SAHI ALLAH'
I also asked MY UNCLE and make sure that which word used in old dua he told me 'ALI SAHI ALLAH'!! PERIOD.

By the way there were two old du'as one was just for Gatpath and one for daily practice, I have both, be honest with you there are many Hindu words like Vishnu, Krishna and Rama there but these words are a symbolic to Allah when our ancestor were Hindus they were illiterate and didn't know much about Arabic, Islam or Allah, therefore pirs kept Allah's different names in their own language so, that they can better understand it the main purpose to keep Hindu names in ginans and old du'a were better understanding, not the conversion.

Let me ask you the same question I asked earlier ;Did Quran reveled for Kafiroons? I believe yes, because there are many Kafirs names in it!!

I know your answer is no, then why Allah mentioned the names of that Kafiroon, like Namrood, Pehron e.t.c.?, mentioning the names of Kafirs in quran forces me and may be some others to believes that Quran is reveled for Kafirs! not for Muslims!! do you agree with this? No.

Same way I do not agree with you guys from Pakistan and Central Asian who believes that, the main reason to mention Hindu god's name in ginans and old du'a was conversion but that was not the case the real reason I wrote above just better understanding, that is it.

To every one in this forum: except Abu Jahal and Piglet,

I, am getting off from my work but before that let me ask you final and special "question of the day"!! Which would you guys will accept a solid proof for Old du'a that "Ali Sahi Allah" word was definitely used but not Aliullah?:-

1: Original Manuscripts which are still available in Khojaki and Gujarati language? which shows word "ALI SAHI ALLAH" NOT ALIULLAH! which were published by Recreation Club of India.
or
2: A translators's wrong translation who does not know Khojaki or Gujarati?
or
3, A OLD GATPAT AND OLD REGULAR DU'A PERFORMER? my uncle, who is still alive and confirmed with me that he and every other dua reciters were used to speak the real word as 'ALI SAHI ALLAH" not ALIULLAH in Jamat Khanas. period.
or
4, FARMANS OF HASAN ALI SHAH, ALI SHAH AND SULTAN MOHAMMED SHAH IN WHICH FARMANS THEY ALL THREE CLAIMED THEMSELVES AS 'ALI SAHI ALLAH'?

Your honest answer will be appreciate, see you tomorrow.

Agakhani.

I have access to translations of two "old dua"

1) from the ismaili.net website
2) from the haji bibi case

If you have any other translations, please feel free to post them.

However, the translation that is posted on the "ismaili.net" website is reflective of our current dua. Most of the old dua contents have been used to formulate the current dua.

The haji bibi case translation is off the mark. It has concepts that are not evident in the current dua. From this analysis, I draw the conclusion that the translation posted on ismaili.net website is likely to be the correct "old dua."

Admin wrote:What Bibi Fatima said is as old as the compiled Quran is but what our Imams have said is very recent. And as I said many times each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of the previous Imam. For example when Shah Karim became our Imam, he said that and again in 1961 he said "I want you to remember the Farmans of my late Grandfather" (Dar es Salam ,Upanga JK, 7 Dec 1961 at 4:30pm and he also told me personnaly in 2010 that Farmans of previous Imams are also His Farmans because they are the Farmans of the Imam of the Time.

I admire your faith in your Imam. Beside Ismailis no Muslim consider them infallable. This hadith would mean that even Prophet agreed Ali=Allah. Allah is not = any human being. Period.

Ya Ali Madad.
Prophet Mohammed was at highest level ONLY because he saw and was with ALI as Allah and nothing less than that.
Allah is just a coined word for world to grind thru million life cycles to knoe who is GOD.
as God made all religion and faith a process of upliftment of soul.
Indentifying own self with ALI/MHI.

Now we come to majority n minority.
In Quran when ALI finished the population over 7-8 times,at the end
of each era only few in single digit souls were saved.
some of their names are mentioned.
in today time million start with nursery level.
as the exam level increses upto school, the percentage keep dropping
till graduate level in college n futher on with master n then PhD level.
now PhD are one out of million.
this is select few in a time period of say 20-25 years of education.
Now just imagine one life cycle of each person as an exam on earth
with relation to God and give few thousand life cycles.
the end level of million years of soul believing n seeing God will definitely
in micro percentage.
winners are always in single digit an losers in million.
so one must not get carried away that majority is always right.
If real nuseri had the conviction of ALI Allah 1370 year back (haqiqati no1)
if would take 45-50 life cycles to know Ali is greater than Allah and very much within him.

every Farman posted by admin n Agakhani are 1001% true.
this status is aslo expressed in every third or fourth verse of most of the Qasida n manqabat of Pir/Dai Nasir Khusraw and Shams Tabriz.( i rate them higher in compare with many ginans)
All other farsi sufi may havealsosiad baatin material.
All qasida now valid n recited start and keeps reminded that ALI ALI n ALI for creation,as creator khuda not a one shade less.
Why did they ignore,undermined, avoided, by passed the word n name of Allah?
They knew if ALI is there why waste a second on taking name or writing
the word Allah.

Somebody wrote if somebody pray namaz or dua,it ok as intent of both the person is same.It is not the SAME.
you are trying to say that one must also go against the order of the MHI.

If we all ask Tret to beg on the street instead of Job.as intent of the beggar is also earn money for his family.
now difference will come WHY when both tret n the beggar have the same intent to earn money.
if somebody is begging in civil society is not right and moral n legitimate
way of earning for the family.
you have very very dirty and ill intention way of putting up a point
which Admin is also noting it.
I wish to face photograph ( a close up ) for observation if u can send one to Admin.
first try to to get to the root of first four word of the Farman.
can be heard by ears every day.
Can any living person on earth/universe other than GOD call himself as 'SPIRITUAL FATHER'( a source of all souls)
in these time when all are educated n have question n doubt.
why is He not shy or embarrass but BOLD n with AUTHORITY.
he is declaring himself as GOD.
Ask him a simple question?
I have have few diplomatic way of answers assumed in my mind.
the Final answer is YES.but how He would tell as 49th Imam it is his call
as finalty maybe 2-3 Imam phases away.
The world with it's spirituality level will be lot from the nature replying them.
Creator will use use creations.This summer will surprise the world
never before type events n heat.A small display of mild hell.
This world is Blessed because of ismailies following HIM ortherwise it would have 'finito' for this human race as mentioned in Quran.
'we change them"

To nuseri -

Simple question: Why would God himself come down to mankind to guide them towards him?

Another simple question: Assuming you are doing bandagi as you claim to be number one ismiali, what's you intention in doing bandagi? You already claim yourself the athorne of Ali, then why doing bandagi? What are you trying to find in bandagi?

Someone who doesn't have regard to Prophet or the word of God, any discussion will go down the drain. You always boast about your conviction and sounds do cocky, why are you always fall short to back your arguments. Whatever you say is purely your opinion and nothing more nothing less. And you are entitled to your opinion. You are as right as I am wrong, and vice versa.

The only judge is the Imam and He knows best. I wouldn't allow myself even a bit to judge anyone's faith neither by their actions nor speeches, and let alone their physical appearances. This is your [and few other members] unique style of pre-judging people, by physical appearances. Almighty Allah said in the Qur'an that the dearest of mankind to God is the ones with good deeds. He didn't say dearest of you are the one who are handsome. If you analogy holds true, then bollywood actors and actresses must be at the highest level of spiritual realm, since they are too beautiful? And you are asking people to send their photo, for you to judge their spiritual level? That must be one of the stupidest thing I have ever heard! You really really exhibited your silliest side, I can't believe I am having a conversation with you!

You analogy of begging and working, really is another lamest theory which really doesn't apply nor does make sense. So, what's the difference between you and zznoor[whom you call shariati/barking dog and what not?] You seem to be after physical practice too, not? Wow, so much coming from so-called *mahrifati*. If this is a mahrifati according to you, I have nothing to do with this kind of mahrifati!

You talk about Qasida and Nasir and Shams Tabriz; have you studied their work? Do you know their central theme of teaching at all? I don't think so!

I have never said it about the numbers. If that was the case, take this forum for example. How many of you in this forum yell Ali is Allah, and how many says otherwise? You draw conclusion!

Farameen mubarak are all Nur of the Imam and are more than 1001% correct. It's upto the murid to obsorbe them and get the real intended meaning of it. As I said earlier, in the presence of Hujjat of the Imam, the knowledge of the Imam is transmitted via the Hujjat. I really doubt you understand what I mean, and that's okay. according to shams, there's always the option of 'to your yours, and to me mine' open to us, not?

So what do you think of Jesus when He was regarded as holly father, or spiritual father; was he God too? MHI is our spiritual father no doubt about that; who denies that. But does that make MHI God? I don't know. If you know and have reasonable argument, please lay them out.

To be honest with you, and no offense; you replies are very unstructured and poorly put together. Most of them doesn't make sense or only make sense to you alone that combined with your unique style of drifting and avoiding from the main questions makes it really hard to make anything out of it.

One last request; if the debate takes this course and end up down the drain like this one, I said it once and I am saying it again, it's better for everyone to beg to differ. If you don't have anything constructive to say, please refrain from using low and dirty tone. Instead backup your argument with reasoning and credible reference, then simply putting your opinion, because your opinion is only near and dear to you alone and not necessarily anyone else.