www.ismaili.net

Sorry for interruption, let me try to answer them.

star_munir wrote: 1) In Quran is there any ayat that tell you that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam or He is successor of Prophet so must be followed. If not, so why do you believe that? If you say that it is mentioned in Hadith. So why can you say that the topic of Dajal or Daet Kalingo which is in Hadith is Un Islamic, although it is mentioned in Hadith books. Is it that whatever Hadith you like are Islamic and what you don't like UnIslamic?

Any authentic hadis is credible. The following hadis, which was mentioned at the Ghadir-e-Khum, is one of the hadis which is accepted by both Shia and Sunni.

من کنت مولا فهذا علی مولا

"Min Kunt-a Maula, Fa-haza Ali Maula"

Whomever I am master of, now Ali is their Master.

By default, when as Muslim, we accept Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah, then every word of Him must be genuinely accepted.


There were always group of people like Hamawi, and other alike, because of their own temporal and political interests, fabricated ahadis just to facilitate their agenda. And any Muslim with true believe would know if they aren't authentic hadis.

star_munir wrote: 2) You have given a link which mentions Vishnu as one the Gods of Hindu. okay now search about Raam and Krishna, you will find similar answer for sure. Now why did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has mention the name of Raam and Krishna as Divinely inspired messenger when He is introducing "Islam as the religion of his ancestors" to the world. Search from internet, you will find Raam and Krishna as forms of Vishnu. Now will you accept Raam and Krishna as divinely inspired messenger as it is stated by Imam in Memoirs of Aga khan?

Can you please post the passage or paragraph where Ram and Krishna and Vishnu is mentioned in the Memoirs of SMS?

The way I look at it, is that I am certain that Ram, Krishna, Budha and probably many more figures were great entities for their followers. After all entire human race is created from one soul, as MHI mentioned on many occasions. But, since we are ismailies, we must follow our tariqa, and let budhists follow budha. I am not implying that budha is wrong or right. or concept of Ram and Krishna or Vishnu is wrong or right. I would say let budhists follow budha, let Hindus follow Ram/Krishna, and let Muslims follow Islam and Prophet. I am sure they all meet at some point, but we all must follow our own path.

The Buddha referred to in Ginans is not Sidharta Bhoudda - Gautama Bouddha. Please inform yourself first and do not think all Bouddas are equals. That is like saying all Ali are equal and the same including Ali Khameny and Ali Ratansi and Ali Penwalla.

Admin wrote:The Buddha referred to in Ginans is not Sidharta Bhoudda - Gautama Bouddha. Please inform yourself first and do not think all Bouddas are equals. That is like saying all Ali are equal and the same including Ali Khameny and Ali Ratansi and Ali Penwalla.

Admin - I have no knowledge of the Ginans, since I don't know the language. I was unaware of the reference of boudha in the Ginans, and I don't even know the correlations between them. I was just trying to make a point, as each faith has their own path, and so does Ismailie. And I believe every faith should follow their path, by following the essence of their faith.

star_munir wrote:To Sheri:

2) You have given a link which mentions Vishnu as one the Gods of Hindu. okay now search about Raam and Krishna, you will find similar answer for sure. Now why did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has mention the name of Raam and Krishna as Divinely inspired messenger when He is introducing "Islam as the religion of his ancestors" to the world. Search from internet, you will find Raam and Krishna as forms of Vishnu. Now will you accept Raam and Krishna as divinely inspired messenger as it is stated by Imam in Memoirs of Aga khan?

Ram is the seventh incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu.
Krishna is the eighth incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Hinduism.

Please read the whole extract below: IMAM SMS accepted that these were prophets, but their people have gone astray. Due to which God inspired Muhammad to spread the correct God(Allahs) message by spreading the true religion Islam. IMAM SMS never mentions any link whatsoever of Islam with other Hindu prophets (incarnations) etc. The only conclusion we can draw from the below text is that Allah's message is universal and that message was finalized in the Holy Quran by Prophet Muhammad. Please read the whole text all the way to the bottom, don't just stop after your beloved Hindu incarnations are mentioned.

"First, however, we must ask ourselves why this final and consummate appearance of the Divine Will was granted to mankind, and what were its causes. All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe. Then what need was there for a Divine revelation to Mohammed ?

The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh. Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created. Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universeas much of it as we perceive with our limited visions one of the infinite manifestations. Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain."

Admin wrote:The Buddha referred to in Ginans is not Sidharta Bhoudda - Gautama Bouddha. Please inform yourself first and do not think all Bouddas are equals. That is like saying all Ali are equal and the same including Ali Khameny and Ali Ratansi and Ali Penwalla.

Admin - how do we know this, is this concept of Bhudda confirmed by a firman. I think this is again a wazen or someone's interpretation who have translated these Ginans (having a Vishnu ancestral background) and wants to discredit Bhudda, because it over-rides the Hindu religion.

star_munir wrote:To Sheri:
1) In Quran is there any ayat that tell you that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam or He is successor of Prophet so must be followed. If not, so why do you believe that? If you say that it is mentioned in Hadith. So why can you say that the topic of Dajal or Daet Kalingo which is in Hadith is Un Islamic, although it is mentioned in Hadith books. Is it that whatever Hadith you like are Islamic and what you don't like UnIslamic?

Because MHI said so - there is no other reason. I can show you Sunni Hadith that discredit Hazrat Ali succession, and I can show you Shia Hadith that favor Hazrat Ali succession. We can find Hadiths for all kinds of views, because they were interpretations. There are some Hadiths which are authentic, and only MHI can help us determine which those are. How do we really prove which Hadith is the correct one? We can't go back in history. Whoever, believes in the IMAM fundamentally believes that he will guide us. The IMAM has said in the constitution that "Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal." This gives authority to the Quran. He has not said anything as such about the Hadith. When describing the Imamat concept he has mentioned in the constitution "In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali." Please note that 3 words are mentioned "Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history." It does not say "According to the hadith" because the sunni have their own versions and the shia have their own versions. So, MHI says and it is.

sheri wrote:

star_munir wrote:To Sheri:
1) In Quran is there any ayat that tell you that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam or He is successor of Prophet so must be followed. If not, so why do you believe that? If you say that it is mentioned in Hadith. So why can you say that the topic of Dajal or Daet Kalingo which is in Hadith is Un Islamic, although it is mentioned in Hadith books. Is it that whatever Hadith you like are Islamic and what you don't like UnIslamic?

Because MHI said so - there is no other reason. I can show you Sunni Hadith that discredit Hazrat Ali succession, and I can show you Shia Hadith that favor Hazrat Ali succession. We can find Hadiths for all kinds of views, because they were interpretations. There are some Hadiths which are authentic, and only MHI can help us determine which those are. How do we really prove which Hadith is the correct one? We can't go back in history. Whoever, believes in the IMAM fundamentally believes that he will guide us. The IMAM has said in the constitution that "Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal." This gives authority to the Quran. He has not said anything as such about the Hadith. When describing the Imamat concept he has mentioned in the constitution "In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali." Please note that 3 words are mentioned "Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history." It does not say "According to the hadith" because the sunni have their own versions and the shia have their own versions. So, MHI says and it is.

But that is your opinion to what He means.

You're shoving your beliefs down our throats.

We have our interpretations - you have yours.

Shams

sheri wrote:

Admin wrote:The Buddha referred to in Ginans is not Sidharta Bhoudda - Gautama Bouddha. Please inform yourself first and do not think all Bouddas are equals. That is like saying all Ali are equal and the same including Ali Khameny and Ali Ratansi and Ali Penwalla.

Admin - how do we know this, is this concept of Bhudda confirmed by a firman. I think this is again a wazen or someone's interpretation who have translated these Ginans (having a Vishnu ancestral background) and wants to discredit Bhudda, because it over-rides the Hindu religion.

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah accepts these individuals as bringing the DIVINE MESSAGE in the MEMOIRS - he adds Confucius to that list.

Allah in the Quran says - He has sent messengers to every part of the WORLD - and anyone preaching monotheism - the worship of ONE GOD is a muslim/was a muslim.

Using the Quran - as I've used it with zznoor before

"To you yours - to me mine"

You can follow your narrow puritanical view of Sunni Ismailism - and I am on the other end - in a very broad based acceptance.

Shams

ShamsB wrote:

sheri wrote:

Admin wrote:The Buddha referred to in Ginans is not Sidharta Bhoudda - Gautama Bouddha. Please inform yourself first and do not think all Bouddas are equals. That is like saying all Ali are equal and the same including Ali Khameny and Ali Ratansi and Ali Penwalla.

Admin - how do we know this, is this concept of Bhudda confirmed by a firman. I think this is again a wazen or someone's interpretation who have translated these Ginans (having a Vishnu ancestral background) and wants to discredit Bhudda, because it over-rides the Hindu religion.

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah accepts these individuals as bringing the DIVINE MESSAGE in the MEMOIRS - he adds Confucius to that list.

Allah in the Quran says - He has sent messengers to every part of the WORLD - and anyone preaching monotheism - the worship of ONE GOD is a muslim/was a muslim.

Using the Quran - as I've used it with zznoor before

"To you yours - to me mine"

You can follow your narrow puritanical view of Sunni Ismailism - and I am on the other end - in a very broad based acceptance.

Shams

Shams brother. I agree with you, and what Maulana SMS has stated, is absolutely correct!

But, in my opinion, I believe each one should follow their own path [tariqa]. I have respect to all religions, and by no means I don't intend to insult anyone's belief. But, don't you think that each faith, should follow their path? I also believe that as mankind elevate to higher stations of the realm of spirituality, regardless of which religion they belong to, their path crosses. For, in the journey of soul-searching, one doesn't have to be bound with a religion. History as witnessed that men from other sects, has achieved very higher status in the realm of spirituality.

ShamsB wrote: But that is your opinion to what He means.

You're shoving your beliefs down our throats.

We have our interpretations - you have yours.

Shams

Shams:
IMAM SMS has said "Krishna & Raama" are 'Prophets.'
On this form & chart of evolution on this website "Krisha & Ram" are incarnations of Vishnu.

Now please tell me are Krisha & Ram "Prophets" as IMAM SMS mentions or are they the manifestation of Vishnu (Supreme God) whom you believe have manifested in Hazrat Ali.

It can be either IMAM SMS is right that they were prophets, or Shams, and others on this forum are right that he is a manifestation of "Vishnu."

I hope you can see the contradiction?

The ninth reincarnation of lord Vishnu called Buddha avatar was not Gautam Buddha who was born in Kapil Vastu almost 2500 years ago.
Pir sadardin composed a separate ginan on Buddha avatar in this ginan he wrote that Krishna himself took Buddha avatar to give courage to Pandavs who started to believe that they will go in hell because they had killed many peoples in Maha Bharat wars, so Krishna become Buddha and told them you have not done any think wrong because it was happened than way so do not reprive for your sins you will go in heven.
This 9th yug or avatar lasted /no more then four hour.
Interesting reader may read Budh avatar ginan of pir sadardin it is agood story
to tret will you please stop making wrong interpretation? When you do not know who was the real Buddha!

warnings:
Brothers and ? There is no active sister here!
Tret urfe Sheri is the followers of that damn Hunzaii, so please do not come in his talk, he is antismaili person, who s doing same thing his mentor tells him, his mentor is Hunzai who used to find out mistakes in imams farman same way tret is doing same thing. Iske har sawal me ismailio ke khilaph ki muje boo aa rahi hai, so beware about his nonsense questions.

tret wrote:Sorry for interruption, let me try to answer them.

star_munir wrote: 1) In Quran is there any ayat that tell you that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam or He is successor of Prophet so must be followed. If not, so why do you believe that? If you say that it is mentioned in Hadith. So why can you say that the topic of Dajal or Daet Kalingo which is in Hadith is Un Islamic, although it is mentioned in Hadith books. Is it that whatever Hadith you like are Islamic and what you don't like UnIslamic?

Any authentic hadis is credible. The following hadis, which was mentioned at the Ghadir-e-Khum, is one of the hadis which is accepted by both Shia and Sunni.

من کنت مولا فهذا علی مولا

"Min Kunt-a Maula, Fa-haza Ali Maula"

Whomever I am master of, now Ali is their Master.

By default, when as Muslim, we accept Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah, then every word of Him must be genuinely accepted.


There were always group of people like Hamawi, and other alike, because of their own temporal and political interests, fabricated ahadis just to facilitate their agenda. And any Muslim with true believe would know if they aren't authentic hadis.

star_munir wrote: 2) You have given a link which mentions Vishnu as one the Gods of Hindu. okay now search about Raam and Krishna, you will find similar answer for sure. Now why did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has mention the name of Raam and Krishna as Divinely inspired messenger when He is introducing "Islam as the religion of his ancestors" to the world. Search from internet, you will find Raam and Krishna as forms of Vishnu. Now will you accept Raam and Krishna as divinely inspired messenger as it is stated by Imam in Memoirs of Aga khan?

Can you please post the passage or paragraph where Ram and Krishna and Vishnu is mentioned in the Memoirs of SMS?

The way I look at it, is that I am certain that Ram, Krishna, Budha and probably many more figures were great entities for their followers. After all entire human race is created from one soul, as MHI mentioned on many occasions. But, since we are ismailies, we must follow our tariqa, and let budhists follow budha. I am not implying that budha is wrong or right. or concept of Ram and Krishna or Vishnu is wrong or right. I would say let budhists follow budha, let Hindus follow Ram/Krishna, and let Muslims follow Islam and Prophet. I am sure they all meet at some point, but we all must follow our own path.

No need of sorry for interrupting. I agree with you that some people fabricated Hadiths. There are hadiths which are credible and others not. My point of argument was on mention of "Dajjal" in hadith (Daet Kalingo in Ginan). While, I dont say that whatever is mentioned about Dajjal in books of Saah-e-Sata would be accurate description given by Prophet himself. But since the concept is found in many Hadiths, it should not be termed as "Un Islamic concept" as Sheri remarked about it. Just like you believe Hazrat as Imam, as it is mentioned in constitution, in the same way we accept whatever concepts of Quran and Hadiths mentioned in Ginans to be true. Even Qasidas, Manaqibs and devotional literature of all Ismaili communities interprets Islamic message in their local context. What I was trying to explain Sheri was not to think that Quran and Ginans are contradicting and not to get confuse with the change in vocabulary.

I was not advocating to follow Hinduism or start worshiping at temple. We need to practice our religion but we should also remember that Islam is the universal religion and was not limited only to the messengers sent to Arabia and Beni Israel.

To Sheri:

Thanks for quoting from Memoirs of Aga Khan. That is exactly what I was trying to convey you i.e. to think out of the box and not to limit Islam only to Beni Israel. In my previous messages, I told you that you will find prediction of coming of Prophet Muhammad in even scriptures of Zoroastrians and Buddhism. That may show that all religions are linked. It was later on that the forms of religion were changed and followers went astray.

Note the term used be the Imam is "Divinely inspired messenger". See Imam has also mentioned about Socrates, wise men of China - this way Islam is Universal religion. Prophets/Divinely inspired messengers were sent to all nations and not only to Beni Israel.

Now I hope you are ready to accept Ismailism/Islam history is to some extent linked with Indian history. At least to the link that Imam has mentioned in the extract you have quoted. To read and know about the Divinely inspired messengers is not Un Islamic.

Also I hope you agree that the way you accept Hazrat Ali as first Imam, as it is mentioned in Ismaili constitution. In the same way we also accept all Islamic concepts as interpreted by Imam and Pir. As far as constitution you have quoted "Islam as revealed in Quran"...In the same Quran it is mentioned to follow Prophet. Imams have also quoted some times sayings of Prophet Muhammad in their speeches. We also believe in Islam as revealed in Quran and as interpreted by Imam. Ginans are also interpretation of Quran and not contradicting with it.

If you agree with these points, than I can start discussing on other issues you want to discuss.

sheri wrote: Shams:
IMAM SMS has said "Krishna & Raama" are 'Prophets.'
On this form & chart of evolution on this website "Krisha & Ram" are incarnations of Vishnu.

Now please tell me are Krisha & Ram "Prophets" as IMAM SMS mentions or are they the manifestation of Vishnu (Supreme God) whom you believe have manifested in Hazrat Ali.

It can be either IMAM SMS is right that they were prophets, or Shams, and others on this forum are right that he is a manifestation of "Vishnu."

I hope you can see the contradiction?

star_munir or ShamsB, please help clarify this contradiction.

Ya Ali Madad:
In his memiors HH the Agakhan III.
has quoted few names as prophet and in next paragrah other name linking with Imam/ALI lineage with divine inspiration.etc.
both NOT are clubbed together to be taken as same level of prophecy n imamat.
Is memoirs a Farman addresses as an IMam SMS to Jamat ,NO NO NO
so please do go gaga over it also has the truth is in baatin understanding of it.(very close microscopic understanding n not just wholesale copy paste with one's varing level )

to tret:
you copy pasted the below
"Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created. Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universe is, as much of it as we perceive with our limited visions, one of the infinite manifestations. Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain"(Memoirs of Aga Khan III, 1954) "

you are doing great by searching the words in nanowisdom site.

Here H.H the AgaKhan III.
is clearly using the term of Universal Soul to that of one Ali+lah=Allah.
I wish all of you read word by word and line by line carefully.
the last 8 lines he refer to analogy used by Imam Hasan.
to compare God as Sun and it is reflection (mazhar) in water.
mirror was not invented then.
the same doctrine is used to portray what is Imam observed on Earth.

If God can only be the Universal soul.
please note that there are NO TWO power houses.
By default when he address million n maybe Billions in future
as his spiritual children.
ONLY Universal soul/GOD can be A source/father of all souls.
he recently affirmed that in the last line of Canada speech of indeed all
mankind is from one soul.
which is that 'universal soul"?

Has anybody on Earth made a claim with FEAR to be spiritual father/universal
to mankind at large?

ALI NEED NOT FEAR THE WORLD
WORLD NEED FEAR ALI+LAH=ALLAH.

at Tariqat level the word 'relationship' of God and Imam.
is logically n legally seen as rigid and the word printed n seen is the end
n finality of the statement.
there is some relation as printed 'Mazhar' ??????.only education but no inspiration
further on as said 'varing level'.
the same word relations can logically be also seen as a
bridge or even catalyst.
The the word Mazhar is reflection/image(as used by Imam Hasan)
then at some time the mirror/water has to to see the real
because with inspiration from the same ALI of ours.
what the word 'relation' futher on
is seen as rigid format tariqat /logical level.(zahir)
seen as bridge/equating at further inspiring level. haqiqat/baatin.
as catalyst to go away by itself and seeing the Real not around mirror
but within yourself with oneness with him.that is marifat/noorani/tawhid.
the varing levels are upward oriented.
the original word has not changed a bit but the level of inspiration
of each is sure about/felt about is 'varing'

to tret:
I have read little.
what was the level of Hujjat e Azam Nasir Khusraw whom MHI called as Foremost among Ismaili thinkers( not second or third).?
He has explained many levels n his poem at a particular wave length.
what was he as we have OWN varing levels.
a Tariqati or haqiqati or marfati.?????

I assume n believe his level as 'FOREMOST" could be over and above
us or even lower as some think that they are too clever n educated in the year 2014.
please you can reply in one word.

sorry.
amendment.
please add the word claimed 'Without' Fear.

sheri wrote:

sheri wrote: Shams:
IMAM SMS has said "Krishna & Raama" are 'Prophets.'
On this form & chart of evolution on this website "Krisha & Ram" are incarnations of Vishnu.

Now please tell me are Krisha & Ram "Prophets" as IMAM SMS mentions or are they the manifestation of Vishnu (Supreme God) whom you believe have manifested in Hazrat Ali.

It can be either IMAM SMS is right that they were prophets, or Shams, and others on this forum are right that he is a manifestation of "Vishnu."

I hope you can see the contradiction?

star_munir or ShamsB, please help clarify this contradiction.

Nuseri - please explain this contradiction. You write long explanation but I still am not getting the answer to this contradiction.

Sheri wrote

The IMAM has said in the constitution that "Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal." This gives authority to the Quran. He has not said anything as such about the Hadith. When describing the Imamat concept he has mentioned in the constitution "In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali." Please note that 3 words are mentioned "Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history." It does not say "According to the hadith" because the sunni have their own versions and the shia have their own versions. So, MHI says and it is.

This is the answer to problem
Think about it, if Imamat was second in importance after Shahada then why it is not mentioned in Quran? Even mundane thing like washing before Salat is mentioned.

So majority of Muslim do not believe in Imamat concept and Shia belief jelled some 200 years after the death of Prophet. That also has broken onto some 40 Firqas.

Who is correct?

star_munir wrote: No need of sorry for interrupting. I agree with you that some people fabricated Hadiths. There are hadiths which are credible and others not. My point of argument was on mention of "Dajjal" in hadith (Daet Kalingo in Ginan). While, I dont say that whatever is mentioned about Dajjal in books of Saah-e-Sata would be accurate description given by Prophet himself. But since the concept is found in many Hadiths, it should not be termed as "Un Islamic concept" as Sheri remarked about it. Just like you believe Hazrat as Imam, as it is mentioned in constitution, in the same way we accept whatever concepts of Quran and Hadiths mentioned in Ginans to be true. Even Qasidas, Manaqibs and devotional literature of all Ismaili communities interprets Islamic message in their local context. What I was trying to explain Sheri was not to think that Quran and Ginans are contradicting and not to get confuse with the change in vocabulary.

I was not advocating to follow Hinduism or start worshiping at temple. We need to practice our religion but we should also remember that Islam is the universal religion and was not limited only to the messengers sent to Arabia and Beni Israel.

Thank you Munir for your descend reply, and I am very satisfied with the answer I got from you. I concur with the ideas and concept you described about Islam being the universal faith, and definitely Prophets are not bound by ethnicity, but by divinity. However, here's what I'd like to clarify, which other participants have difficulty realizing it.

I fully understand that neither you, nor anyone else advocating practice of hinduism, neither I (or sheri) advocating to impose my idea onto anyone else.

First and foremost, I'd like to confess, that I don't have full and complete understanding of the Ginans, as I do with Qasidas. I can explain, articulate and elaborate on all Qasidas, but I can not do the same for ginans. However, I do respect ginans.

I am not sure, what's your position on the Paris Conference in 1975, but I read that ginans were categorized into 3 categories, of A, B and C, where category C would contain most of hindu elements in them, and hence has to be returned to Ismailia Association. This conference was chaired by MHI.

Now, the references about vishnu or 10 incarnations that most participants are talking about, I am not sure in which category of the ginans are found? A? B? or C?

the reason, why is this, is because in Islam these notions does not hold correct! According to any muslims, the concept of vishnu or 10 incarnations are not valid. However, if this is only the question of vocabulary, then it can easily be slatted down, as opposed to concept, which would advocate in itself totally different direction!

Besides this element, there were other resolutions, about the concept of Imam, God, Imamt, Nabuat that were passed [Apparently, MHI has approved their correctness and validity], which most participants believe to have just political and diplomatic intentions, as opposed to tariqa and religious intention. Please if you could provide your POV on the Conference of 1975 in Paris, it's be appreciated.

sheri wrote:

sheri wrote:

sheri wrote: Shams:
IMAM SMS has said "Krishna & Raama" are 'Prophets.'
On this form & chart of evolution on this website "Krisha & Ram" are incarnations of Vishnu.

Now please tell me are Krisha & Ram "Prophets" as IMAM SMS mentions or are they the manifestation of Vishnu (Supreme God) whom you believe have manifested in Hazrat Ali.

It can be either IMAM SMS is right that they were prophets, or Shams, and others on this forum are right that he is a manifestation of "Vishnu."

I hope you can see the contradiction?

star_munir or ShamsB, please help clarify this contradiction.

Nuseri - please explain this contradiction. You write long explanation but I still am not getting the answer to this contradiction.

I know this question is not addressed to me, but I'd like to just give my POV.

According to my understanding, Imamat (or Nur of Imamat) is about Manifestation, as opposed to Reincarnation. I believe we need to understand and focus on these two concepts to fully understand and realize what they mean.

If Vishnu is just a matter of using different vocabulary of hindi, than arabic, then I concur, and there's no problem at all. However, if it represents different concept, then we need to understand and agree on them.

nuseri wrote:to tret:
I have read little.
what was the level of Hujjat e Azam Nasir Khusraw whom MHI called as Foremost among Ismaili thinkers( not second or third).?
He has explained many levels n his poem at a particular wave length.
what was he as we have OWN varing levels.
a Tariqati or haqiqati or marfati.?????

I couldn't tell you, I am sorry. Because I can't judge anyone's belief. Only Imam would know who's at what level and anyone's faith and belief.

However, according to the history and materials and evidence at hand; Nasir-e-Khusraw was one of the philosophers and thinkers of his time [You can do a quick search on his bio and find out his academic background], who gave his bayiat to the Imam of the time and afterward he was appointed as one of Hujjat of his time. Now, as I said earlier, Hujjats are representatives of the Imam of the Time at HIS absence, and have the spiritual knowledge and receives Tayid from the Imam of the Time.

Now, you can use your intellect and judgement to draw a conclusion what was his level of faith, because I don't allow myself to do so, about anyone. I'd leave that to MHI.

nuseri wrote: to tret:
you copy pasted the below
"Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created. Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universe is, as much of it as we perceive with our limited visions, one of the infinite manifestations. Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain"(Memoirs of Aga Khan III, 1954) "

you are doing great by searching the words in nanowisdom site.

Here H.H the AgaKhan III.
is clearly using the term of Universal Soul to that of one Ali+lah=Allah.
I wish all of you read word by word and line by line carefully.
the last 8 lines he refer to analogy used by Imam Hasan.
to compare God as Sun and it is reflection (mazhar) in water.
mirror was not invented then.
the same doctrine is used to portray what is Imam observed on Earth.

If God can only be the Universal soul.
please note that there are NO TWO power houses.
By default when he address million n maybe Billions in future
as his spiritual children.
ONLY Universal soul/GOD can be A source/father of all souls.
he recently affirmed that in the last line of Canada speech of indeed all
mankind is from one soul.
which is that 'universal soul"?

thanks for this insightful and descend answer, nuseri. However, there are a couple of elements which I have different view and I have tried to elaborate in my previous posts, I think it would worth mentioning again.


I tried to highlight and underline the important elements in the extract of the Farmaan, as well as your reply. I will try my best to be as clear as I can.


First, Maulana SMS says:

...constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul...

Here we already know individual soul, which is human soul. However, the Universal Soul is not Supreme God, according to my understanding. Please refer to my previous replies, where I mentioned how the relation to God, Universal Intellect (Divine Intellect) and the Universal Soul is.

Mankind's duty is to realize that their individual soul needs to/must return to Universal Soul, for IT to actualize ITself.


Second, please note carefully, that Maulana SMS gives the example of Imam Hasan, to clarify the relation of God and Universe, not to the secondary reality of the Universal Intellect and Soul, but just the reflection of IT, or the Universe.

Now why MHI is our spiritual Father [and Mother / or Parent]?

The universe has come to existence because of the movement of the Universal Soul, which was came to existence by the Universal Intellect. Apparently, these are cosmic entities, and we have their reflection on our physical earthly world, which are the Imam[Father] and the Hujjat/Pir[Mother], in our time and age.

MHI has mentioned the verse from the Qur'an that all mankind are from the same Soul, is one of the most beautiful speeches of Maula, which I always admire. Please reflect on it!

To sheri:Ya Ali Madad.
please do not take one statement of a memeber quoting of SMS,He may by oversight and to explian in genralized term name some entitied as both prophet n Imamat linege.
It was not of purpose.
you are coward when you know that some approved resolutions is not the word proclamation to maske sound like a farman
and purposely stating line of mazhar as constitution article later.

please note one has to ABIDE by the constitution and Follow the farman
as an Ismailie.
you have fallen so low that,I presume you do go to JK and liten to Farmans,which is AN ORDER
but very cunningly trying to raise point from extract of HH the Agakhan
book or sppeches made as a world statesman.
that what 'varing level 'you intend for your soul along with otherclever member.
By sheer non accaeptance n follwing of farman ,you two already non ismaili by faith,but techincally may in this life.

Next phase by default can be Sharaiti also.
there are Ismaili scholars who the list of name of prophet lineage n Imamat lineage before H.ALI in our Ismaili doctrines.
I am not into early 9 avatars all to read of the past data.

to tret:Ya Ali Madad.
you are trying as shallow tariqati level to explain in confusing way with fancy word.nobody is a fool or game for it.
first try know what conviction an absolute one Nasir khusrow had?
then try put his extracts looking as your input.

Did you ask any Ismailie in JK
why they say Ya Ali Ya Hazar Imam'
in tasbih not 'Ya Shah Karim Ya Hazar Imam'
If an Ismaile does ackowledge him as ALI.
there is a BIG FULL STOP at is tariqat level,may be he/she already down
to shariati level.
who respect H.Ali as Khalifa lived n died in 1370 years back.
by accepting this word one cannot be called even a Shia,forget Ismailie
are long way ahead.
to both shallow technical Ismailie of this Life.

In a University a prospectus for student and the rule document
are important PRO material in case of prospectus to potray
the college for admissions and features of it.
the rule book for all to abide n to be used when grievances or indifferent
issue come up as mentioned in the book.
i.e an issue of smoking on campus.etc.
these both prospectus n rule book are NOT AT ALL a part of syllabus.
it is teaching of the faculty n syllabus that makes a great student.
those who only study prospectus n rule book to graduate.
are fool of the first order absolutely donkeys.

nuseri wrote:To sheri:Ya Ali Madad.
please do not take one statement of a memeber quoting of SMS,He may by oversight and to explian in genralized term name some entitied as both prophet n Imamat linege.
It was not of purpose.
you are coward when you know that some approved resolutions is not the word proclamation to maske sound like a farman
and purposely stating line of mazhar as constitution article later.

please note one has to ABIDE by the constitution and Follow the farman
as an Ismailie.
you have fallen so low that,I presume you do go to JK and liten to Farmans,which is AN ORDER
but very cunningly trying to raise point from extract of HH the Agakhan
book or sppeches made as a world statesman.
that what 'varing level 'you intend for your soul along with otherclever member.
By sheer non accaeptance n follwing of farman ,you two already non ismaili by faith,but techincally may in this life.

Next phase by default can be Sharaiti also.
there are Ismaili scholars who the list of name of prophet lineage n Imamat lineage before H.ALI in our Ismaili doctrines.
I am not into early 9 avatars all to read of the past data.

to tret:Ya Ali Madad.
you are trying as shallow tariqati level to explain in confusing way with fancy word.nobody is a fool or game for it.
first try know what conviction an absolute one Nasir khusrow had?
then try put his extracts looking as your input.

Did you ask any Ismailie in JK
why they say Ya Ali Ya Hazar Imam'
in tasbih not 'Ya Shah Karim Ya Hazar Imam'
If an Ismaile does ackowledge him as ALI.
there is a BIG FULL STOP at is tariqat level,may be he/she already down
to shariati level.
who respect H.Ali as Khalifa lived n died in 1370 years back.
by accepting this word one cannot be called even a Shia,forget Ismailie
are long way ahead.
to both shallow technical Ismailie of this Life.

In a University a prospectus for student and the rule document
are important PRO material in case of prospectus to potray
the college for admissions and features of it.
the rule book for all to abide n to be used when grievances or indifferent
issue come up as mentioned in the book.
i.e an issue of smoking on campus.etc.
these both prospectus n rule book are NOT AT ALL a part of syllabus.
it is teaching of the faculty n syllabus that makes a great student.
those who only study prospectus n rule book to graduate.
are fool of the first order absolutely donkeys.

Why we say 'Ya Ali, Ya Hazar Imam'?

I thought I tried to make it clear, but I guess not. So I will try again.

Nur of Imamat is ETERNAL. The Imams ARE from the NUR of IMAMAT. Some call it The Eternal Imam also.. I believe you should already know that we (ismailies) believe in the Batin (Nur) and not physical body. Hence Ali, Hazar Imam (All Imamas) are from the same Nur of Imamat.

As for the rest of your post, honestly I wasn't able to make any sense of it. I am sorry.

To zznoor:
On your noorani word of forty firqas.
I am quoting form yesterdays newspaper 'Hindustan times'.one can google itis there.
Is one of the advance n richer state of Maharashtra In India,Mumbai is it capital.
status of Firqa no 1.
after 1400 years of Koran ,Hadith and teachings of Alim
and fatwas of streetside moulana,mullah kazi.
they form appx 12.3% of state population.
most madrasa actvity also get donation from the guiding country.

1.60% of muslims stay before poverty line.(part time in Hell)
that is rs 54 income per day per head in a family.
it come to 90 cent on purchasing power parity(PPP) it is US$ 3 per day.
2. 25% marginally above above it may at $5 per day in PPP..
3. 15% above it.
4.they form 36% of population in state prisons(like blacks in USA).full time in hell.
plus lot more data is given n written.
5. 2.2% complete graduation
for women it is 1.4%.
for other poor states in India like UP,Bihar n west bengal,they are worse off in all parameters.

is is defining a Beggar even worse than it.( is said beggars make around rs 200 per day by begging in Mumbai).
They all follow the sira.sunnat etc n guidance from thier preachers.
I personally observe a Muslim time given fro prayers must be double
than hindu n others in that state.
Why are condemned to acute n hopeless poverty?
MHI recently used this word condemned to poverty n the word disaster
not often used earlier in his phase of Imamat of 56 years.

if prophet were too see his UMMAH today on legacy he left n what these
are already serving mild sentence of HELL.
what would he say?
A write said 'best for religion is Islam n worst are it followers.
I have some data that Income of Ismailis in mumbai particular
is 6 -7 times of those firqa monthly income n 80% of girls complete graduation.
ONE N ONLY HOLISTIC.
they hung to Quran without Imam e Mubeen.
a price of Hell i feel around 66% percent of Firqa no 1 in into worldwide.
You have 'Escape to Hell' for your next phase of Life.
Pray twice the time of there and be 'condemned to poverty'
in words of HH the Aga Khan recently in Canada or U.s.a.
SOMETHING MUST BE TERRIBLY WRONG even their prayers in the first place.
there are some Ayats in Koran pointing to their status.
I will highlight it later on
Please reply to reality of today ,there are around 130 million Muslims in India.

sheri wrote:

sheri wrote: Shams:
IMAM SMS has said "Krishna & Raama" are 'Prophets.'
On this form & chart of evolution on this website "Krisha & Ram" are incarnations of Vishnu.

Now please tell me are Krisha & Ram "Prophets" as IMAM SMS mentions or are they the manifestation of Vishnu (Supreme God) whom you believe have manifested in Hazrat Ali.

It can be either IMAM SMS is right that they were prophets, or Shams, and others on this forum are right that he is a manifestation of "Vishnu."

I hope you can see the contradiction?

star_munir or ShamsB, please help clarify this contradiction.

Memoirs is wirtten by Imam. Therefore, the way Imam has explained it needs to be accepted
Evolution chart is prepared by a missionary, according to his interpretation. It is not necessary to believe what a missionary says. So if your intellect accepts it thats fine otherwise just leave that.

Secondly, there is no contradiction here. Note the term used for Raam and Krishna was not prophet but "Divinely inspired messenger". That messenger may be Prophet or may not be.
The misionary who has designed this evolution chart, has also written an article about it. He explains in the article "The Sanskrit word “awtaar” is generally misunderstood by most of us. It means to descend or descended.....So you see it does not mean God. It means descended, the Arabic equivalent of which is “naazil” or “munazzil”. These words have been extensively used in the Holy Quran....."

I am not saying I agree with whatever is written by him. But I have quoted just to clarify that there is no contradiction.

To tret,
Thanks. There are certain Ginans which mentions about das avtar in detail. They are no longer recited in Jk. However you can find them quoted in publications of IIS and scholarly works.
I dont know about Paris Conference. But Admin I think once mentioned that the minutes of Paris conference does not show true picture of the conference.

star_munir wrote:To tret,
Thanks. There are certain Ginans which mentions about das avtar in detail. They are no longer recited in Jk. However you can find them quoted in publications of IIS and scholarly works.
I dont know about Paris Conference. But Admin I think once mentioned that the minutes of Paris conference does not show true picture of the conference.

I guess Admin can provide his say here, I am sure it'd be appreciated, given the reasoning behind it. One would question why it wouldn't be the true picture? Any particular reason or motive? Apparently, the conference was chaired by MHI, so one would think right away, that any resolutions passed, must have sought MHI's approval for the correctness of the subject; wouldn't you agree? I'd really want to know then what would be the true 'picture' of the conference, and based on which reasoning or information is Admin's assertion.


You can, btw read it at your convenience. I am sure you can find the link to it.

Munir,

I, already gave him (Tret) names of those ginans which are composed specially on ten incarnations concepts but he does not like ginans at all !! because he is a ginan ......! he only likes "Paris conference speech" and as per his narrow minded it is enough for him, Do you know how many times he used this speech as a reference? I think more then dozen times as a reference because he has tremendous faith in this speech but on ginans Any way you are dealing with a person ? who doesn't believes in ginans, does not believes in farmans of any Imams and he is expert in making own wrong interpretations of farmans!!! Good luck though.

P.S.

Sheri is his another IDS.