www.ismaili.net

I m really looking for waez in Chicago from abu ali on dait kalinga if any one have it pls pls I need copy

Ya Ali Madad:

I assume this word is from ancient Indian history or Mythology.
There are some members who has notional Franchisee of Abuali.

I assume this word is from ancient Indian history or Mythology.
There are some members who has notional Franchisee of Abuali.

It is not hidden by me that you hate ancient Indian history and Mythology along with our wonderful Ginans and piratan concept at albut today I find out that you also hate Rai Abu Ali Aziz, a great waezin ever to born.
to better understand his waezes I think you have to take another birth to understand that properly. period

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.

Well my liking for selective Ginans and respect for Pir is already expressed by me.

How you observe it is your Intellect.

There are over 60 Khidmatgars with with title of Rai's in my country.
At Zahiri designation it come at level 3 from 6 levels rewarded plus two more level beyond the 6 for Noorani Khidmatgar.

If you consider level 3 from 8 levels as the greatest,God bless you in your academics and search in history n event of the past times.

What amazes me is that some of our brothers are still so much interested in the history of hindi and I guess effort will be very well spent in understanding our own ismailie history.

tret wrote:What amazes me is that some of our brothers are still so much interested in the history of hindi and I guess effort will be very well spent in understanding our own ismailie history.

Tret -

I must say I am a little disappointed by your comment - i have always found you to be more open minded and pluralistic in your thought and approach.

Tell me - what do you consider Ismaili History? ...keep in mind that our Pirs incorporated this "Hindu" mythology into our Ginans and for the Indo Sub Pak Ismailies - this is a part of their History. Some of these "hindu" names are identified as our Imams before Hazrat Ali

I, for one, consider the study of Ginans paramount to my understanding of Ismailism - and this is in accordance with the Farmans of our Imams - both Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah and Hazar Imam.

I understand that Ginans aren't for everyone - as each tradition has it's own canon of literature that is Ismaili - but for you to categorically call it Hindu is very much like zznoor's approach on what a Muslim is or not.

The requirement to become an Ismaili is very simple - Bayah to the Imam of the Time - beyond that - whatever tradition you follow - has literature and the beauty of our faith is, that it allows all to follow all expressions.

Just like NDTV interview - only requirement to be a Muslim; basic Shahadah.
How about we say that all ismailies have the Imam in Common and go from there?

Strange - the Imam and the Prophet both say - if in order to seek to knowledge you have to go to China - you should...and here we are splitting hairs on what is constituted as Ismaili History or not?

isn't it enough that me your ismaili brother finds this important one shouldn't be condescending or disrespectful of it?

Once again - a little saddened and disappointed by your post - wasn't expecting it of you.

Shams

ShamsB wrote:

tret wrote:What amazes me is that some of our brothers are still so much interested in the history of hindi and I guess effort will be very well spent in understanding our own ismailie history.

Tret -

I must say I am a little disappointed by your comment - i have always found you to be more open minded and pluralistic in your thought and approach.

Tell me - what do you consider Ismaili History? ...keep in mind that our Pirs incorporated this "Hindu" mythology into our Ginans and for the Indo Sub Pak Ismailies - this is a part of their History. Some of these "hindu" names are identified as our Imams before Hazrat Ali

I, for one, consider the study of Ginans paramount to my understanding of Ismailism - and this is in accordance with the Farmans of our Imams - both Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah and Hazar Imam.

I understand that Ginans aren't for everyone - as each tradition has it's own canon of literature that is Ismaili - but for you to categorically call it Hindu is very much like zznoor's approach on what a Muslim is or not.

The requirement to become an Ismaili is very simple - Bayah to the Imam of the Time - beyond that - whatever tradition you follow - has literature and the beauty of our faith is, that it allows all to follow all expressions.

Just like NDTV interview - only requirement to be a Muslim; basic Shahadah.
How about we say that all ismailies have the Imam in Common and go from there?

Strange - the Imam and the Prophet both say - if in order to seek to knowledge you have to go to China - you should...and here we are splitting hairs on what is constituted as Ismaili History or not?

isn't it enough that me your ismaili brother finds this important one shouldn't be condescending or disrespectful of it?

Once again - a little saddened and disappointed by your post - wasn't expecting it of you.

Shams

Shams brother, I feel terrible if I had caused any disappointment. Trust me it wasn't my intention.

Let's clarify something. I am a central Asian Ismaili and I do have immense respect to my fellow Ismaili brothers and sister from else where as well as their culture and heritage and the rich and divers values they have. I do have immense respect to Ginans. I listen to them joyfully at JK all the time, inspite of not being able to understand them.

My comments were specifically for "Indian history". Now, let's clarify something and draw the line, if we can. For example in India, there are hundreds if not thousands of other religions which they may have a very long history, now we can't claim all to be Ismaili history. In my personal opinion, if there are part of indian heritage/history/culture/value that are rooted in ismailie history, then by all mean we shall consider them as part of our Ismailie history. and we should refer to it as Ismali history and NOT indian history, is my point.

I always remember what Maula Ali has said that I am slave of the one who teaches me one letter of the alphabet! So, I concur with what you say about seeking knowledge.

Please, if my comment caused mis-understanding, apologies.

and we should refer to it as Ismali history and NOT indian history, is my point.

What differences it will makes? if we refer as an Ismaili history and not an Indian history when these two are holding totally different histories!!?
brother the bottom line is you are also sailing in same boat in which many Qasida lovers and ginans hater are sailing!

agakhani wrote:

and we should refer to it as Ismali history and NOT indian history, is my point.

What differences it will makes? if we refer as an Ismaili history and not an Indian history when these two are holding totally different histories!!?
brother the bottom line is you are also sailing in same boat in which many Qasida lovers and ginans hater are sailing!

Maybe it doesn't make any difference. It was just my observation that is all.

You always tend to categorize as haters and lovers. It's your personal opinion and you absolutely welcome to have yours.

What makes me sad is inspire of our beloved Maula emphasizing the importance of pluralism and tolerance, some of us still tries to divide and takes side and not ready to be tolerant by categorizing the jama'at as haters or lovers. Wish you well brother.

Mahtab,
Yes, I do have that waez on "daint kalinga" but I collected all waezes (1200) in one DVD.my son did it for me because I do not know much about computer except basic operation of computer.
I will ask him and others freinds if they can make another copy of that DVD or not? If they can then I will send it to you free, no matter where you leave.
One thing please remember all this depend on them, I do not know when this can happen either so my advise is please listen all waezes in this website you may fond it. Good luck.

There are many waezes of Abualy missionary which you may download from ismaili.net. Just check it out, if there is one on Daet Kalingo.

For us Islam is not only Arabian religion but universal religion. Ismaili tradition has rooted in different parts of the world. For better understanding of Satpanthi Ismailism, it is important to have understanding of certain important aspects of Indian history as well as ancient literature.

Except for the brief conversion period of Hindus to Ismailis, there is no historic evidence that Ismailism or Islam had any link with the Hindu religion. Islam has always been an Abrahamic religion. There is no concept of Vishnu, in Islam or the Quran.

When Hindus were being converted, there were many Ismailis living in other parts of the world, in Iran, in Syria, in Central Asia and others. The Hindu converted ismailis were the first ones to get access to technology and spread their history and beliefs (like this website). We need to evaluate all the other sources of Ismaili history to determine if this concept of Hindu link is really an Ismaili concept or was just a means to an end to convert the Hindus.

star_munir wrote:For us Islam is not only Arabian religion but universal religion. Ismaili tradition has rooted in different parts of the world. For better understanding of Satpanthi Ismailism, it is important to have understanding of certain important aspects of Indian history as well as ancient literature.

sheri wrote:Except for the brief conversion period of Hindus to Ismailis, there is no historic evidence that Ismailism or Islam had any link with the Hindu religion. Islam has always been an Abrahamic religion. There is no concept of Vishnu, in Islam or the Quran.

When Hindus were being converted, there were many Ismailis living in other parts of the world, in Iran, in Syria, in Central Asia and others. The Hindu converted ismailis were the first ones to get access to technology and spread their history and beliefs (like this website). We need to evaluate all the other sources of Ismaili history to determine if this concept of Hindu link is really an Ismaili concept or was just a means to an end to convert the Hindus.

star_munir wrote:For us Islam is not only Arabian religion but universal religion. Ismaili tradition has rooted in different parts of the world. For better understanding of Satpanthi Ismailism, it is important to have understanding of certain important aspects of Indian history as well as ancient literature.

When the Prophet spread Islam, it was difficult for the Jews of Medina to accept him as prophet. Although their scripture mentioned that a Prophet will come but they believed that they were chosen people of God and the new prophet must be someone from their nation.

In the same way, some people believe Arabs to be chosen land of God and forget/ignore that fact that there were Divinely inspired messengers in other lands.

If you dont believe in Ginans and Ismaili missionaries, forget it just read the works by Non Ismaili Scholars and historians...you will be surprised or rather shocked to know that many of the Sunni and Shia scholars have accepted that link. These writers include Khwaja Hassan Nizami, Syed Sulaiman Nadwi, Ghulam Jilani Barq, Dara Shikouh etc.. The list is quiet long. You may explore it..

And yes you may explore sources of Ismaili/ Islamic history from China, Africa or whatever place you wish for but dont limit it to Arabia only.

Ismailism's fundamental belief is in the Holy Prophet being a Prophet of Allah. There is no concept of incarnations, reincarnation, manifestation etc, like in the Hindu religion. Islam is an Abrahamic faith. It is the faith of the descendants of Hazart Abrahim. Vishnu is not the grandfather of Hazart Abrahim. Only Hazart Adam is the ancestral grandfather. Either it started with Hazart Adam or it started with Vishnu. The choice is yours on which path you want to follow.

I can provide you links to scholars that believe otherwise. They are against any aspect of Hinduism to be part of Islam. They are all interpretations by individuals trying to make sense of religion. Again, until the IMAM does not confirm one interpretation over the other, both can be correct, both can be incorrect, and both can be irrelevant.

sheri wrote:Ismailism's fundamental belief is in the Holy Prophet being a Prophet of Allah. There is no concept of incarnations, reincarnation, manifestation etc, like in the Hindu religion. Islam is an Abrahamic faith. It is the faith of the descendants of Hazart Abrahim. Vishnu is not the grandfather of Hazart Abrahim. Only Hazart Adam is the ancestral grandfather. Either it started with Hazart Adam or it started with Vishnu. The choice is yours on which path you want to follow.

I can provide you links to scholars that believe otherwise. They are against any aspect of Hinduism to be part of Islam. They are all interpretations by individuals trying to make sense of religion. Again, until the IMAM does not confirm one interpretation over the other, both can be correct, both can be incorrect, and both can be irrelevant.

No one has said Vishnu to be the grandfather of Hazrat Ibrahim. Who told you that information??? No Ismaili has any disagreement on Holy Prophet being the last Prophet. Infact, if you read Ismaili constitution, it is mentioned clearly that Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet and for your information, that is something mentioned in Ginans as well.

Just like when you study about Jesus as it is mentioned in Hadiths and Quran, you are not studying Christianity but Islam, in the same way when you are studying certain terms mentioned in Ginan, you are studying Ismailism. The topic of discussion was on Ginanic term "Daet Kalingo". It is the Indian name of what in Islamic tradition is mentioned as "Dajjal". Now instead of saying "Sun" if you will say it "Suraj" so will that make any difference to Sun? Instead of the word "Dajjal" if some one uses the word "Daet Kalinga" so what is your problem? Both terms are identical. Why are you creating unnecessary controversies?

star_munir wrote:

sheri wrote:Ismailism's fundamental belief is in the Holy Prophet being a Prophet of Allah. There is no concept of incarnations, reincarnation, manifestation etc, like in the Hindu religion. Islam is an Abrahamic faith. It is the faith of the descendants of Hazart Abrahim. Vishnu is not the grandfather of Hazart Abrahim. Only Hazart Adam is the ancestral grandfather. Either it started with Hazart Adam or it started with Vishnu. The choice is yours on which path you want to follow.

I can provide you links to scholars that believe otherwise. They are against any aspect of Hinduism to be part of Islam. They are all interpretations by individuals trying to make sense of religion. Again, until the IMAM does not confirm one interpretation over the other, both can be correct, both can be incorrect, and both can be irrelevant.

No one has said Vishnu to be the grandfather of Hazrat Ibrahim. Who told you that information??? No Ismaili has any disagreement on Holy Prophet being the last Prophet. Infact, if you read Ismaili constitution, it is mentioned clearly that Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet and for your information, that is something mentioned in Ginans as well.

Just like when you study about Jesus as it is mentioned in Hadiths and Quran, you are not studying Christianity but Islam, in the same way when you are studying certain terms mentioned in Ginan, you are studying Ismailism. The topic of discussion was on Ginanic term "Daet Kalingo". It is the Indian name of what in Islamic tradition is mentioned as "Dajjal". Now instead of saying "Sun" if you will say it "Suraj" so will that make any difference to Sun? Instead of the word "Dajjal" if some one uses the word "Daet Kalinga" so what is your problem? Both terms are identical. Why are you creating unnecessary controversies?

That is a good point. But I heard that ismailie of India believes that load vishnu was an Imam and existed prior to Adam.

Can you confirm if that is valid from the POV of Jama'at of India?

Because according to Abrahamic faith and believe the spiritual world started from Adam.

The term Vishnu is used by Hindus for the attribute of God as a sustainer of the universe. According to Shamsu (one of the members of ismaili.net forum- he posted this information in forum) the word Vishwa means Universe and anu means atom so Vishnu means the one who exists in every atom or particle of this universe. The word Vishnu appears in Ginan also but not as a particular person that existed in past but for the Imam in general, whose light is spiritually present every where and all the time.

Right on tret.

Either you believe Adam ---> Muhammad or you believe the chart of evolution posted on this website which does not mention any Abrahamic prophet other than Muhammad.

No mention at all of the major prophets that provided greatness in Islam and Ismailism and are held so dear to the heart.

There is no concept of Vishnu in Islam whatsoever. Give me one source, I ask for only one reliable source that links Vishnu to Adam.

star_munir wrote:The term Vishnu is used by Hindus for the attribute of God as a sustainer of the universe. According to Shamsu (one of the members of ismaili.net forum- he posted this information in forum) the word Vishwa means Universe and anu means atom so Vishnu means the one who exists in every atom or particle of this universe. The word Vishnu appears in Ginan also but not as a particular person that existed in past but for the Imam in general, whose light is spiritually present every where and all the time.

Dajjal is an interpretation that is floating around. It has not been confirmed by MHI. Furthermore, there is no mention of it in the Quran. Please provide any authentic reference to this claim that the concept of Dajjal is a Islamic concept (either a Farman or a ayat of the Quran).

star_munir wrote: The topic of discussion was on Ginanic term "Daet Kalingo". It is the Indian name of what in Islamic tradition is mentioned as "Dajjal". Now instead of saying "Sun" if you will say it "Suraj" so will that make any difference to Sun? Instead of the word "Dajjal" if some one uses the word "Daet Kalinga" so what is your problem? Both terms are identical. Why are you creating unnecessary controversies?

Ya Ali Madad:
it is true that khojas of today are converts from Hinduism.
so does lot of culture n traditions is embedded still in Khoja traditions.
Our blessed PIRs has a very very challenging JOB to relates the Phases
of prophecy as well of ALI in various from of Avataar in Hindus still believe.
ALI existed not at defined IMAM but at GOD even then ,if one is inspired
of upward level.
So ginans had to start from basic to attracts then inspire rs.

If the nursery school lessons start with scientific name of water n hydrology.
All student would run away.it start with physical
aspect of water n uses like drinking,plating rains,washing,river etc
all common sense belief of water.
In the same way the Ginans were composed to bring all to 'Das Avatar'
of GOD .who would come and Live amongst the people(IMAM).
Imam SMS has acknowledged the phases of HIS on earth before
he was persnnally given of ALI as a final avataar.
I also frown on Khoja scholars digging into first 9 avataar in context to
Ismails.
In a Farman by Imam SMS.He said strictly in Afirc to to study n concerntrate on the tenth phase of 'God on earth'
and not on earlier avataars as religigious doctrines.
many scholar like to post about that to vent out thier study on the forum.

I personally request all ismaili schloars/Bhagats.
just to deeply UNDERSTAND,ANALYZE THE FIRST FOUR WORD OF CURRENT FARMANS.
forget all debate data book blah blah blah.

My dear spiritual children
this means by default HE is our spiritual father.
try to study these TWO WORD.
WHAT IS DEEP MEANING
WHAT DO HE MEAN BY THAT.
WHO ON EARTH CAN BE SPIRITUAL FATHER .
Why Is Imam is saying with absolute authority n power n confidence
whose recording is there for the world to hear.

As understood upon that that there are varing level of inspiration
existing.
Nobody is ready to know HIM by breaking one simple word Allah.
as ALI+lah/nothing=Allah.
This two words as reasoning,history.
ONLY GOD CAN SPIRITUAL FATHER GIVING LIFE/BIRTH/RAISE TO HUMAN SOULS.( All population of earth)
NO ORDINARY HUMAN BEING CAN SAY THAT WITH AUTHORITY.

please ponder on two word (spiritual/holy father).

If one can just be fully inspired with it.
No need of reading n googling thousand of pages of the past.

A living word recorded by an living Imam of the time today.

I personally always get amused n annoyed at time on reading of ages
ages back DATA of tom dick n harry.

AB TO ALI AUR ALI
SIRF ALI ALI ALI

Ali also means Exalted.

Ali=Allah in the Ginans can also be translated as "Exalted is Allah."

Instead of it meaning that MHI=Allah, the Pirs meant that "Exalted is Allah."

The translations of the Ginans are interpretations of individuals. Unless, MHI confirms these translations, we cannot draw definite conclusions that MHI=Allah for any of these Ginans. There is not a single official translation of any of the Ginans on this website.

Even the pope is considered the "Holy Father" and the Catholic the Children of the Holy Father. So now we have 2 Gods. One the Pope and the other MHI.

Ya Ali Madad.

In an interview SMS was once asked the compare him with Pope.

Imam said pope is Elected from collegium of cardinals from any background and while he is from 'Nass of Ali n Imamat as ordained in Quran n Hadith.

So each with it's varing n amusing level.

Pope does NOT address, I wish to see it n hear on any you tube etc as holy children of his but may be reffering to all as holy/pious children of God.
NOT as HIS.

There are whole bunch of legal eagle to cross examine his power to say so.

To Sheri:Ya Ali Madad.

You are trying to wrong word or tying to impress upon the forum members because yo do NOT have any faith or respect for MHI.

Earlier you used the MHI 'proclaimed' as he is Mazhar and then do a turn around n agree that it is a word drafted/suggested by leaders for a purpose.(please see earlier post to tret) .

Here the word used is consider and not CLAIMING to be holy father of
catholic.
He does not say the word 'MY' to Catholics.

IMAM IS AUTHORITATIVELY CLAIMING n Not considering.

Pope is considered First among the church believers as a mark of Highest respect.
First access what level of conviction you have and what motive n intention
you have been trying to undermine and mock Imam of the time.

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.

In an interview SMS was once asked the compare him with Pope.

Imam said pope is Elected from collegium of cardinals from any background and while he is from 'Nass of Ali n Imamat as ordained in Quran n Hadith.

So each with it's varing n amusing level.

Pope does NOT address, I wish to see it n hear on any you tube etc as holy children of his but may be reffering to all as holy/pious children of God.
NOT as HIS.

There are whole bunch of legal eagle to cross examine his power to say so.

Please provide reference for the interview above.

Also, IMAM SMS has stated the following:
"Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw its great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh."

http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1225/

Further, the Ismaili Constitution states IMAM as "Mazhar of Allah." What you are saying is your interpretation. It has not been authorized by the IMAM, so it is just an opinion.

If the IMAM himself has approved that he is the "Mazhar of Allah", then by saying that MHI = Allah you are disrespecting the IMAM.

MHI chaired the Paris conference. I hope you understand the meaning of "chaired." The paper from the paris conference was also approved by MHI. Hence, in effect he authorized the concept of "Mazhar of Allah", thereby proclaimed it.

Also, IMAM SMS has said:
"Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh."

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/9929

By using the spiritual children argument you are making an interpretation. It is not authorized by MHI.

nuseri wrote:To Sheri:Ya Ali Madad.
You are trying to wrong word or tying to impress upon the forum members because yo do NOT have any faith or respect for MHI.

Earlier you used the MHI 'proclaimed' as he is Mazhar and then do a turn around n agree that it is a word drafted/suggested by leaders for a purpose.(please see earlier post to tret) .

Here the word used is consider and not CLAIMING to be holy father of
catholic.
He does not say the word 'MY' to Catholics.

IMAM IS AUTHORITATIVELY CLAIMING n Not considering.

Pope is considered First among the church believers as a mark of Highest respect.
First access what level of conviction you have and what motive n intention
you have been trying to undermine and mock Imam of the time.

To sheri;Ya Ali madad.
your shallow faith (below ground level)
you inter relate n try to manipulate the words
that approval= authorization= proclamation.
see the meaning of all the words.
read the fine print for the Constitution.
Imam has absolute say/prerogative in matters of fiath.

and not listen to leaders n nod his head as approval.

You all know matters related to faith n re
ligious MATTERS. is privately held from ages.

Why this conference was held in open forum with papers going out IMMD as some external force was hell bent
to hear what was belief of Ismails in particular for 'Imam with God'.
to know the background n purpose is VERY VERY IMPORTANT.
it was well attended and publicized to reach the audience (not Jamat)
who was looking forward to legalized statement.
it was a tactical move to have conference chaired and approval taken
on preplanned strategic concept resolutions to impress upon those
who were keen to hear that words.

If Admin approve your posting on the forum to be seen,it does not mean
he has authorized it or by sheer default is becomes a proclamation of the member binding on all forum members reading that post.
YOU CANNOT FOOL STRONG ISMAILIS ON THIS FORUM.
MAYBE a shallow one may nod his head with you.
because you are unblessed in level of inspiration ,which is followed
by the word Mazhar.

To tell the Monkies beyond peanuts. we also have almonds,pistachio
and cashew nuts to enjoy ( farmans,dua tabish ibaadat).

SHOW THE FARMAN on 'Mazhar' COMING OUT OF LIPS OF THE IMAM TO THE JAMAT.

HE IS CLAIMING TO SPIRITUAL FATHER OF ALL THE SOULS ON EARTH.
AS PER ALL HOLY BOOK,ONLY GOD IS SOURCE OF ALL SOULS

The approved concept resolutions are noting but a PRO ( public relation) hand out copies fot non Ismailis trying to know cosmetic belief(not conviction) of relations Imam with God.
A planned act to serve the purpose n need of the hour then.

What is mazhar? a reflection/mirror image of visible existing original
Get inspired you will see that any reflective index was NOT there in a first place.
you see the real/visible original who was earlier thought to seen as reflection in case of still water or glass mirror.

And you know all this based on what? Have you had a personal meeting with MHI where he mentioned that the conference and the constitution are a PR stunt. I don't believe so. It is your head which is telling you that because you are still trying to reconcile your Hindu belief that God manifested in Vishnu, so Allah has now manifested in Ali, thereby MHI.

This is a Hindu concept. In Islam and Ismailism this concept does not exist. The concept of God/Allah manifesting in a mans body is foreign to Islam. Hindu converts are trying to push this concept through, but it will not pass. IMAM SMS has clearly stated and I repeat again:

"Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw its great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh."

If IMAM SMS was Allah and he made the above statement then he contradicted himself.