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If God created the universe, then who created God?

 
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: If God created the universe, then who created God? Reply with quote

I received following question in my e-mail!!

If God created the universe, then who created God?

I answered him that nobody had created God because God is a 'noor', he don't have any shape, he was there before the creation of this universe and he will remain even when this whole universe will destroy, I also quoted "Sura Ikhlas" from Noble Quran but he was not satisfied with my answer.
Does any one else have better answer to satisfy him?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God is eternal. No one has created God. This is some thing which human can not comprehend. Just like in a small bucket one can not fill entire ocean similarly, with limited intellectual capacity Human can not understand God.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answer, your answer is decent answer but I will still looking answers from other readers as well.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is God Beyond God that created God icon_smile.gif

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/tajdin/1294d.pdf
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, indeed it is a good link according our ginan, but he is a non- ismaili fellow and he wants evidences from Quran, Bible and other religions scriptures like Vedas, Upanishads, Purans e.t.c.

I will e-mail this link to questioner let see what he has to say about this.
I still urge other readers to post their comments and share any evidence if they have.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is God Beyond God that created God


Very nice !! icon_lol.gif
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Very nice !!


Very nice!!that's it!!(??) come on yaar, I need your own comments, inputs, thoughts on this subject , i.e. who created God? Give some references from Quranic ayahs if possible. I will not mind if it is copied and pasted from Sunny/Shia sources. icon_rolleyes.gif the only thing I want is to defeat the questioner.
I, requested him to join Ismili.net and post his question in forum section but some how he is not interested to join.
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samir25



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who Created God? Where Did God Come From? Proof of God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5lY0TcdAw
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samir25



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who Created God? Dr. Zakir Naik answers this question.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=gfzUJHMlf7U
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samir25,
Thanks for two links both are good links, I will forward it to my friend.
What do you think about creation? I mean what is your personal opinion?
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Wise Young Muslim Boy

Many years ago, during the time of the Tabi'in (the generation of Muslims after the Sahabah), Baghdad was a great city of Islam. In fact, it was the capital of the Islamic Empire and, because of the great number of scholars who lived there; it was the centre of Islamic knowledge.

One day, the ruler of Rome at the time sent an envoy to Baghdad with three challenges for the Muslims. When the messenger reached the city, he informed the khalifah that he had three questions which he challenged the Muslims to answer.

The khalifah gathered together all the scholars of the city and the Roman messenger climbed upon a high platform and said, "I have come with three questions. If you answer them, then I will leave with you a great amount of wealth which I have brought from the king of Rome." As for the questions, they were: "

(1) What was there before Allah?"

(2) In which direction does Allah face?"

(3) What is Allah engaged in at this moment?"

The great assembly of people were silent. (Can you think of answers to these questions?) In the midst of these brilliant scholars and students of Islam was a man looking on with his young son. "O my dear father! I will answer him and silence him!" said the youth. So the boy sought the permission of the khalifah to give the answers and he was given the permission to do so.

The Roman addressed the young Muslim and repeated his first question, "What was there before Allah?" The boy asked, "Do you know how to count?" "Yes," said the man.

"Then count down from ten!" So the Roman counted down, "ten, nine, eight, ..." until he reached "one" and he stopped counting "But what comes before 'one'?" asked the boy.

"There is nothing before one- that is it!" said the man. "Well then, if there obviously is nothing before the arithmetic 'one', then how do you expect that there should be anything before the 'One' who is Absolute Truth, All-Eternal, Everlasting the First, the Last, the Manifest, the Hidden?"

Now the man was surprised by this direct answer which he could not dispute. So he asked, "Then tell me, in which direction is Allah facing?"

"Bring a candle and light it,"
said the boy, "and tell me in which direction the flame is facing."

"But the flame is just light- it spreads in each of the four directions, North, South, East and West. It does not face any one direction only," said the man in wonderment.

The boy cried, "Then if this physical light spreads in all four directions such that you cannot tell me which way it faces, then what do you expect of the Nur-us-Samawati-wal-'Ard: Allah - the Light of the Heavens and the Earth!? Light upon Light, Allah faces all directions at all times."

The Roman was stupefied and astounded that here was a young child answering his challenges in such a way that he could not argue against the proofs. So, he desperately wanted to try his final question. But before doing so, the boy said, "Wait! You are the one who is asking the questions and I am the one who is giving the answer to these challenges. It is only fair that you should come down to where I am standing and that I should go up where you are right now, in order that the answers may be heard as clearly as the questions."

This seemed reasonable to the Roman, so he came down from where he was standing and the boy ascended the platform. Then the man repeated his final challenge, "Tell me, what Allah is doing at this moment?"
The boy proudly answered, "At this moment, when Allah found upon this high platform a liar and mocker of Islam, He caused him to descend and brought him low. And as for the one who believed in the Oneness of Allah, He raised him up and established the Truth Every day He exercises (universal) power (Surah 55 ar-Rahman, Verse 29)."

The Roman had nothing to say except to leave and return back to his country, defeated. Meanwhile, this young boy grew up to become one of the most famous scholars of Islam. Allah, the Exalted, blessed him with special wisdom and knowledge of the deen. His name was Abu Hanifah (rahmatullah 'alayhi- Allah have mercy on him) and he is known today as Imâm-e-A'zam, the Great Imam and scholar of Islam. May Allah[swt] shower some of His Mercy in the same way upon our Muslim children who are growing up today
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
A Wise Young Muslim Boy

Many years ago, during the time of the Tabi'in (the generation of Muslims after the Sahabah), Baghdad was a great city of Islam. In fact, it was the capital of the Islamic Empire and, because of the great number of scholars who lived there; it was the centre of Islamic knowledge.

One day, the ruler of Rome at the time sent an envoy to Baghdad with three challenges for the Muslims. When the messenger reached the city, he informed the khalifah that he had three questions which he challenged the Muslims to answer.

The khalifah gathered together all the scholars of the city and the Roman messenger climbed upon a high platform and said, "I have come with three questions. If you answer them, then I will leave with you a great amount of wealth which I have brought from the king of Rome." As for the questions, they were: "

(1) What was there before Allah?"

(2) In which direction does Allah face?"

(3) What is Allah engaged in at this moment?"

The great assembly of people were silent. (Can you think of answers to these questions?) In the midst of these brilliant scholars and students of Islam was a man looking on with his young son. "O my dear father! I will answer him and silence him!" said the youth. So the boy sought the permission of the khalifah to give the answers and he was given the permission to do so.

The Roman addressed the young Muslim and repeated his first question, "What was there before Allah?" The boy asked, "Do you know how to count?" "Yes," said the man.

"Then count down from ten!" So the Roman counted down, "ten, nine, eight, ..." until he reached "one" and he stopped counting "But what comes before 'one'?" asked the boy.

"There is nothing before one- that is it!" said the man. "Well then, if there obviously is nothing before the arithmetic 'one', then how do you expect that there should be anything before the 'One' who is Absolute Truth, All-Eternal, Everlasting the First, the Last, the Manifest, the Hidden?"

Now the man was surprised by this direct answer which he could not dispute. So he asked, "Then tell me, in which direction is Allah facing?"

"Bring a candle and light it,"
said the boy, "and tell me in which direction the flame is facing."

"But the flame is just light- it spreads in each of the four directions, North, South, East and West. It does not face any one direction only," said the man in wonderment.

The boy cried, "Then if this physical light spreads in all four directions such that you cannot tell me which way it faces, then what do you expect of the Nur-us-Samawati-wal-'Ard: Allah - the Light of the Heavens and the Earth!? Light upon Light, Allah faces all directions at all times."

The Roman was stupefied and astounded that here was a young child answering his challenges in such a way that he could not argue against the proofs. So, he desperately wanted to try his final question. But before doing so, the boy said, "Wait! You are the one who is asking the questions and I am the one who is giving the answer to these challenges. It is only fair that you should come down to where I am standing and that I should go up where you are right now, in order that the answers may be heard as clearly as the questions."

This seemed reasonable to the Roman, so he came down from where he was standing and the boy ascended the platform. Then the man repeated his final challenge, "Tell me, what Allah is doing at this moment?"
The boy proudly answered, "At this moment, when Allah found upon this high platform a liar and mocker of Islam, He caused him to descend and brought him low. And as for the one who believed in the Oneness of Allah, He raised him up and established the Truth Every day He exercises (universal) power (Surah 55 ar-Rahman, Verse 29)."

The Roman had nothing to say except to leave and return back to his country, defeated. Meanwhile, this young boy grew up to become one of the most famous scholars of Islam. Allah, the Exalted, blessed him with special wisdom and knowledge of the deen. His name was Abu Hanifah (rahmatullah 'alayhi- Allah have mercy on him) and he is known today as Imâm-e-A'zam, the Great Imam and scholar of Islam. May Allah[swt] shower some of His Mercy in the same way upon our Muslim children who are growing up today



taken from here:

http://www.sunnah.org/publication/khulafa_rashideen/wiseboy.htm
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Very nice!!that's it!!(??) come on yaar, I need your own comments, inputs, thoughts on this subject , i.e. who created God? Give some references from Quranic ayahs if possible. I will not mind if it is copied and pasted from Sunny/Shia sources. the only thing I want is to defeat the questioner.
I, requested him to join Ismili.net and post his question in forum section but some how he is not interested to join.


If you wanna do this just to defeat somebody then Im sorry nobody can help you because you're doing this just to degrade someone but if you really wanna learn something then start listening you yourself and ask this question to yourself

who is god ? ....where is he ? ...what is before god ?.... what is after god ??

Stop playing this winning and losing games because you never learn anything from it !!....All you end up doing is degrade your ownself.

Allah[swt] is above all you can imagine....He does not have no biological father and mother unlike the prophets and imams[as]....The beauty in the name of allah[swt] is the name itself !! Like for example : god and goddess.....There is no plural of the tem allah[swt] icon_smile.gif

Do you know any other name, and don't you know that there is no one who is called the same." (19:65)

People often accept the name of their diety when it suits them or when its in their mother tongue , but you may have noticed that if the very same name of diety is given to different diety, the feeling changes ...they dont feel attracted to that religion or diety nomore and for this the holy quran states :

And when it is said to them, 'Prostrate to the Most Gracious (Rahmân)', they say, 'What thing is this, the Most Gracious?' (25:60)

We the people have this individualistic approach or concept when it comes to their lord....Like for example : some ismailis take imam as khuda....So as long as this so called diety fits our all fancy concept we are good but when the actual reality is presented in any other form who just try to run away !!

The holy quran did not come up with new diety...but have presented to us the very same eternal diety that has been present in all the illuminated hearts and minds

Do they not reflect in their own minds? [30:8]

This god is the very same god that guided H.Ibrahim [as], H.Musa[as]............Shri Buddha, Shri. Ram, Shri Krishna and alllll other prophets known and unknown to us.

Say: "Of your `partners', can any originate creation and repeat it?" Say: "It is Allah Who originates Creation and repeats it: then how are ye deluded away (from the truth)?" 10:34

We come accross soo many aayats but this one is just mind blowing

Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." 41:11

All this rain, weather, crops, wind....everything is in harmony to one another...Both the earth and the sky work hand in hand !!....The process of rain...change in winds....cloud formation and so on !!!.....Which other diety can do this besides allah[swt].

Now I know some smartasses would stand up and say oh even humans these days can do cloud seeding and alter the weather....well thats the reason why allah[swt] used to term UNWILLINGLY....Isnt he all wise? icon_lol.gif

The whole cosmos is like the community where only one ruler rules, and this ruler is veiled. That is why He describes Himself as being hidden (al-Batin) in veils of light (Noor). That is why He says:

It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise. (51) (42:51)

Is this enough or should you want me say more on this because I could go on and on icon_smile.gif


Last edited by shiraz.virani on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
taken from here:

http://www.sunnah.org/publication/khulafa_rashideen/wiseboy.htm


Nope its actually taken from here :

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f20/3-smart-questions-3-wise-answers-%FE-18442/
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
Quote:
taken from here:

http://www.sunnah.org/publication/khulafa_rashideen/wiseboy.htm


Nope its actually taken from here :

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f20/3-smart-questions-3-wise-answers-%FE-18442/


same difference. What I meant is, giving credit to the source, is more courteous.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rules on this forum

RULE NUMBER FOUR: Redirection and outside links are not allowed. They will be deleted at the discretion of the Moderator. Redirection to other Forums are specifically not allowed.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
Quote:
Very nice!!that's it!!(??) come on yaar, I need your own comments, inputs, thoughts on this subject , i.e. who created God? Give some references from Quranic ayahs if possible. I will not mind if it is copied and pasted from Sunny/Shia sources. the only thing I want is to defeat the questioner.
I, requested him to join Ismili.net and post his question in forum section but some how he is not interested to join.


If you wanna do this just to defeat somebody then Im sorry nobody can help you because you're doing this just to degrade someone but if you really wanna learn something then start listening you yourself and ask this question to yourself

who is god ? ....where is he ? ...what is before god ?.... what is after god ??

Stop playing this winning and losing games because you never learn anything from it !!....All you end up doing is degrade your ownself.

Allah[swt] is above all you can imagine....He does not have no biological father and mother unlike the prophets and imams[as]....The beauty in the name of allah[swt] is the name itself !! Like for example : god and goddess.....There is no plural of the tem allah[swt] icon_smile.gif

Do you know any other name, and don't you know that there is no one who is called the same." (19:65)

People often accept the name of their diety when it suits them or when its in their mother tongue , but you may have noticed that if the very same name of diety is given to different diety, the feeling changes ...they dont feel attracted to that religion or diety nomore and for this the holy quran states :

And when it is said to them, 'Prostrate to the Most Gracious (Rahmân)', they say, 'What thing is this, the Most Gracious?' (25:60)

We the people have this individualistic approach or concept when it comes to their lord....Like for example : some ismailis take imam as khuda....So as long as this so called diety fits our all fancy concept we are good but when the actual reality is presented in any other form who just try to run away !!

The holy quran did not come up with new diety...but have presented to us the very same eternal diety that has been present in all the illuminated hearts and minds

Do they not reflect in their own minds? [30:8]

This god is the very same god that guided H.Ibrahim [as], H.Musa[as]............Shri Buddha, Shri. Ram, Shri Krishna and alllll other prophets known and unknown to us.

Say: "Of your `partners', can any originate creation and repeat it?" Say: "It is Allah Who originates Creation and repeats it: then how are ye deluded away (from the truth)?" 10:34

We come accross soo many aayats but this one is just mind blowing

Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." 41:11

All this rain, weather, crops, wind....everything is in harmony to one another...Both the earth and the sky work hand in hand !!....The process of rain...change in winds....cloud formation and so on !!!.....Which other diety can do this besides allah[swt].

Now I know some smartasses would stand up and say oh even humans these days can do cloud seeding and alter the weather....well thats the reason why allah[swt] used to term UNWILLINGLY....Isnt he all wise? icon_lol.gif

The whole cosmos is like the community where only one ruler rules, and this ruler is veiled. That is why He describes Himself as being hidden (al-Batin) in veils of light (Noor). That is why He says:

It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise. (51) (42:51)

Is this enough or should you want me say more on this because I could go on and on icon_smile.gif


@shiraz - Do you realize that in Qura'an, the term "we", "us" has been used (I don't know exactly where, but you should know, I guess). So, why not only "I" and "Me" hasn't been used? Why this plural term?
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
@shiraz - Do you realize that in Qura'an, the term "we", "us" has been used (I don't know exactly where, but you should know, I guess). So, why not only "I" and "Me" hasn't been used? Why this plural term?


For the first you have actually asked a very question my brother.

I think [and this is just my opinion] that the term "WE" in the holy quran is used only to show that he is "royal" like if a king refers himself he would use the term WE [HUM], US [HUM-MEIN]

Quote:
Whenever in the Qur’an Allah is mentioned in the third person there are always singular pronouns used, such as He, him (Huwa or Hu). Whenever Allah is spoken to in the second person there are also singular pronouns, such as Thou, Thine and Thee (Anta, Ka). However only in the first person some times the pronouns I, My or Mine (Ana, Iyaya, ya) are used and sometimes We, Us and Our (Nahnu, Na) are used.

This is a style of speech. Sometime the speaker says I and sometime says we. We also use that in our conversations. In the Qur’an you will see that often the first person singular such as I or My is used, when Allah speaks about His love, care and closeness and forgiveness for His servants. In a similar way the first person plural is often used when Allah speaks about His power, majesty, glory, great deeds or when He speaks about His anger and wrath for the sinners and criminals. (This is, of course, the general use. Sometime the reverse is also the case, depending on the context of the Surah.)


I just hope admin bhai wont delete this

[External link deleted by Admin]

and since you always like to give credit to the source please make sure you thank Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi for providing us this beautiful explanation
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you wanna do this just to defeat somebody then Im sorry nobody can help you because you're doing this just to degrade someone but if you really wanna learn something then start listening you yourself and ask this question to yourself


NO,

I, don't want to defeat him, so that I can prove myself superior than him, no brother not at all , matter of facts I defeated many times in my life and still defeating on daily basis when I debating with some one on religious matter, but that is OK at least for me because in my opinion
victory or defeat is in the hand of Almighty Allah but we must have to act whatever we can.

कर्म किये जा फल की इच्छा मत कर ए इन्शान,
जैसा कर्म करेगा वैसा फल देंगा भगवान

Quote:
but if you really wanna learn something then start listening you yourself and ask this question to yourself

who is god ? ....where is he ? ...what is before god ?.... what is after god ??


For your kind information:-

With grace of Almighty Allah, and blessing form my beloved Imam, I already find answers of above questions long time ago.
I explained him those answers but I was still missing some Quranic Ayahs on this matter, therefore I requested you and other readers too,
in my opinion there is nothing wrong to ask some one if some one join in Ismailism.
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Agakhani,

Why are you rely only on Quran? there are many Ismaili ginans available specially written on the Creation of this Universe, Please read the ginand of Pir Sadardin, Pir Shams and Syed Imam Shah and you will find trustable answerd of your questiond i.e. who created this universe? was god existed before the creation of this universe or not?

Any way, you are doing great job to convert a non-Ismaili, Good Luck in advance.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why are you rely only on Quran? there are many Ismaili ginans available specially written on the Creation of this Universe,


Mr-forget,

Yes sir, you are absolutely right that there are many Ismaili ginans on the subject of creation of this universe. I knew that before my this post and believe me those valuable information already given to my friend.
As a true ismaili ginan lover I can't rely only on Quran and Hadish matter of fact, I have been always given first priority to ginans to find any kind solution even before Quran and Hadish because I don't know Arabic and I can't trust any translators or interpreters of Quran.
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
matter of fact, I have been always given first priority to ginans to find any kind solution even before Quran and Hadish


It should be and I will also suggest to read Farmans of SMS, those farmans you will find in Kalame Imame Mubin 1-2, it is an encyclopedia of Ismailism you will find any kind solution of your problems in those farmans, no matter your problems related to worldly, ruhani or health problems.

Back to the subject and your question I would say only in one sentence that GOD IS UNCREATED CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSES.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Back to the subject and your question I would say only in one sentence that GOD IS UNCREATED CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSES.


I like your answer in only one simple sentence.
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From_Alamut



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 666

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: If God created the universe, then who created God? Reply with quote

Al-Ikhlas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ikhlas
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