You are mistaken. First of all, there are more than one Mata Salamat, the Begum of SMS was one but she was not Ithna Ashari. The one who was and whose reference I think Karim was giving was the mother of SMS?
You are mistaken. First of all, there are more than one Mata Salamat, the Begum of SMS was one but she was not Ithna Ashari. The one who was and whose reference I think Karim was giving was the mother of SMS?
You are referring to Lady Shams Alia Mulk - the wife of Aga Ali Shah - the mother of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.
speaking of Ahle Bayt;
Musa Kazim was the son of an Imam who didn't follow the Imam and claimed Imamat for himself.
Mustaeli was another son of another Imam.
Haji Bibi was also the granddaughter of an Imam....
seriously - we're going to keep letting Shiraz rile us up?
Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1139 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:24 am Post subject:
Quote:
Our very own ismaili history claims that SMS used to hold the holy quran on his head and chant the name of imams [Imam hussain[as] in particular] during ashura.
As per Ismaili akida Imam can do anything and whatever he wants to do but we can't follow him, this topic has been discussed many times in past.
There are many Farmans of SMS in Kalam E Imam Mubin on Moharam and in those farmans Imam restricted Ismailis on mourning during Moharam.
You are referring to Lady Shams Alia Mulk - the wife of Aga Ali Shah - the mother of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.
speaking of Ahle Bayt;
Musa Kazim was the son of an Imam who didn't follow the Imam and claimed Imamat for himself.
Mustaeli was another son of another Imam.
Haji Bibi was also the granddaughter of an Imam....
seriously - we're going to keep letting Shiraz rile us up?
Shams
ShamB bhai I dunno why you have to put me into all this....1st of it wasnt me who said our 48th imam's wife used to participate in ashura, it was agakhani bhai
Shiraz.Virani said :
Quote:
Take Mata Salamat as an example, she travelled all the way from pakistan to mecca just to bow down and kiss the black stone...Why would she do that ??
@ Above is what I said about the wife of 48th imam to which agakhani bhai replied
AgaKhani said :
Quote:
It is not hidden any more that she was Ishnashari and according my patents they show her participating in Moharum/Ashura In Hasanabad or Wadi but she was converted in Ismailism latter on.
and then agakhani bhai got confused and said :
Quote:
Not necessarily Shiraz, lets take example of Mata Salamat even she married to Imam SMS , she was practicing Ishnaashri sect until 1957 and SMS knew that she was not an Ismaili and therefore he permitted her to participate in Moharam/Ashura now come back to your question if any one becomes Ismaili naturally after marriage to Imam then SMS had never ever permitted her to participate in Ashura because Isamilis doesn't mourning on the death of any Imam. we as a shia accept Imam Hussain as our imam and accept his and his other family member's sacrifices in battle of Karbala but some how we haven't accepted Mahoram in our ritual.
I dont think agakhani bhai did this purposely, its just that he got confused between the mother of our 48th imam and his wife
Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1139 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:42 am Post subject:
Quote:
I dont think agakhani bhai did this purposely, its just that he got confused between the mother of our 48th imam and his wife
Nope, I didn't confused before Shiraz, and nor I confused right now, matter of fact there were not only two mata salamat as you mentioned above but for your kind information there were three mata salamat, I knew it before my post that there were three mata Salamat, now looking the confusion going on among some confused readers in this forum including Admin and Shiraz, I thought I should put the detail below for their easy understanding:-
1, PI'R SARKAR MA'TA SALAAMAT:-
After the death of Pir Mirza Mohammed Ba'qir Imam Agha Hasanali Shah appointed his own mother as the Pir. Her name was Mariam Khatoon and she was born in year 1744, She was a very good speaker and a highly learned woman. The Holy Imam had conferred upon her the title of Mata Salaamat. She was addressed as Pir Bibi Sarkar or Sarkar Mata
Salaamat.
She was sent to India by the Holy Imam in 1245 A.H. (A.D. 1829). She was the first Holy Pir who visited India in 369 years since the death of Pir Tajdin in 876 A.H * She also travelled to the Persian Gulf countries to visit the jamats there. When she passed away in Mahalat**, in about 1248 A.H., the Holy Imam took over the work of the Pir as well. She never lived in India permanently but she died in KERA, KATCHH where her tomb still there according on history book of Ismaili pir but she was burried in Najaf. One rich from Kera Katchh name Habib Ibrahim he and and some Ismaili families from his side stop to give dasond to Imam therefore Mowla sent her in Katchh.
2, SECOND MATA SALAAMAT:-
She was mother of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.) and wife of Aga Ali Shah(s.a.), her name was Nawab Aulia Shamsul-Mulk, she was a granddaughter of Fateh Ali Shah Kachar of Persia, she was Ishnashari first but latter on she was converted in Ismailism.
Many older jamati members including my parents who used to live in Hasanabad and Wadi, Mumbai show her to participates in Ashura in month of Moharam when she was Ishnashari, You can also hear this facts in many waez of Rai Abu Ali.
3, MATA SLAMAT, THE WIFE OF SMS
She was wife of Sulatan Mohammad Shah(s.a.) her name was Yvonne Blanche Labrousse, She converted to Islam and became known as Umm Habiba (Little Mother of the Beloved). In 1954, but Sultan Mohammad Shah(s.a.) named her as a 'MATA SALAMAT" therefore we calling her as mata salamat as well. Neither she had a pir title nor she was an Ishanashri but she was a Chirstin before her convertion in Ismailism so basically she never participate in Ashura.
* I personally do not agree with this; that she came in India after Pir Tajdin because there were few appointed pirs in India even after pir Tajdin (s.a.).
** There is a controversy about her death! where was she really died? some say she died in Mahalat but in one book name "Pir padharya Apne Dwar -2 it is quoted that she died in Kera, Katchh and once SMS also visited her tomb in year 1903 and ordered to keep her tomb clean & neat and keep burning Loban all the time. Her tomb is still in Kera, Katchh. SMS also said that the importance of this tomb in Katchh has same importance like the tomb in Hasanabad of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (s.a.).
So, basically Shiraz I was not confused before nor I confused right now.
Last edited by agakhani on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:18 am, edited 4 times in total
There was one concern about meaning of Noor. Meaning of Noor is light.
Given below is from the interview of Imam on Sunday Times in 1965
Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?
"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."
Now comes the question of infallibility. In the same interview, it is mentioned
You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?
"The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis......
____________________________________________________________
Shiraz, if you think guide is imperfect, capable of committing errors then answer this question what is need to follow someone who is imperfect?
Why God has sent Noor which can misguide people...Can you give any example where any prophet has misguided people??
It seems you are well aware of Quranic verses. I hope you remember the one, in which Allah says He has purified Ahle-Bayt.
If it is in Quran also that they are purified, then why do you think they can misguide or they are misguided sometimes.
__________________________________________________________
In Quran in Surah Noor it is mentioned that Allah is Noor of Earth and Heavens. So I hope you can see it clearly there.
In one of the earlier post, Karim mentioned that Imam can appear different depending on audience. Its true
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God. If you consider me your Spiritual Father, I am your Spiritual Father. If you consider me your Imam, I am your Imam. If you consider me only your friend, I am your friend and so on. It depends on your faith. You, too, are a different person to different people: you are son to your parents, a father to your children, a brother to your siblings, etc. But anybody who considers me God at a Shariati level is no better than a “Bhut Parast”(idol worshipper or an iconolater). At the Marfati level, this question does not arise”.
(Source: My glorious fortnight with Sir Sultan Mohamed Shah) You can read the complete text from anecdote section, if you wish so.
There was one concern about meaning of Noor. Meaning of Noor is light.
Given below is from the interview of Imam on Sunday Times in 1965
Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?
"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."
Brother munir, @ above interview Imam said Noor= Light.....But what is that light ?
For me Noor = Guidance[Light]
Quote:
Now comes the question of infallibility. In the same interview, it is mentioned
You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?
"The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis......
So taking everything he says by word makes him infallible ??? The imam himself admitted that he makes mistakes and learns from it
Quote:
Shiraz, if you think guide is imperfect, capable of committing errors then answer this question what is need to follow someone who is imperfect?
Good question brother, according to quran there are several prophets who committed mistakes in the past so does that mean we should not treat them as prophets ??
Our holy imam H.Imam Jafer As Sadiq[as] once said :
In his “Siyar A’laam un-Nubulaa” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:
From Abdul Jabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt) So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”
Imam Ali[as]....Sher E Khuda once said :
Ali(as) said: “……….Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them. Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring . I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah, other than Whom there is no Lord except Him. He owns our selves which we do not own. He took us from where we were towards what means prosperity to us. He altered our straying into guidance and gave us intelligence after blindness.” [Nahjul balagha, sermon 215]
So once Nafe’ bin Jubayr said to him(Imam Zain ul Abedin[as]), ”you are Sayyid and you are sitting in the majlis of a slave.” to which Imam replied, ”knowledge is to be taken, no matter from where it comes". Siyar (4/388).
Our current imam was taught about islam and its tenants by the private tutor and not by the 48th imam himself !!
So yes, a guide may sometimes need the guidance
Quote:
It seems you are well aware of Quranic verses. I hope you remember the one, in which Allah says He has purified Ahle-Bayt.
If it is in Quran also that they are purified, then why do you think they can misguide or they are misguided sometimes.
What does purification has to do anything with infallibility brother munir ?? ....There are verses where allah[swt] tells us of his wish to purify believers too !!! Like for example :
“Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful." (Quran, 5:6)
When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness(rijz) of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.(8:11)
There are many other verses too brother but does that mean if a momin is purified by allah[swt] he/she would become infallible ??
The purification mentioned in the verse (33:33) was not meant to make anyone infallible, but rather simply to expiate them for past mistakes or errors or sins. We will never find anybody who says that the purification mentioned in those mentioned verses was meant to make the Prophet’s[saw] family members or the believers into infallibles.
It is in Quran, “Verily Allah desires to remove all blemishes from You, O Ahle bait and to purify you with a perfect purification.” When the above verse was revealed Prophet Muhammad spread his cloak over Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain and declared, “These are the members of My house and Allah has purified them all of any un cleanness and granted them His mercy. We serve as the tree of Prophet Hood, the pillar of mission, the place of passage of angels, the house of mercy and the wealth of knowledge.”
As per your understanding light means guidance. I agree with it but that is only one way of interpreting it. Noor can be interpreted in other ways too.
It can be interpreted as the divine light which Prophet and Imam possess.
God says in Quran that Allah is Noor.
Given below is translation of Ayah-e-Noor from Holy Quran
"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His light is as if there were a niche and within it a lamp: the lamp enclosed in glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His light: Allah doth set forth parables for men: and God doth know all things."
Previously there had been lot of discussion on interpretation of this verse. I think Kmaherali, can direct you to the topics, where it was discussed in detail. However, the purpose of posting it here is that Allah has said He is light.
Syed Ahmed Shah says in Si harfi “The indescribable Lord created a tree and gave it two branches. The first one is the light of Muhammad Mustafa and the other one is the light of Ali Murtaza. Mother Fatima is also with them. Hazrat Hassan and Imam Hussain are also playing in the light.”
Pir Shahbuddin Shah has written in Risala dar haqiqat deen “The sacred Light which manifested in Muhammad and Ali continued in the world through Fatima, in her sons, Hasan and Hussain, and no power in the world can extinguish this Light. It is said: "they wanted to extinguish the Light of God, but God brings His light through, to the end", i.e. to the completion of its mission.”
Now regarding the sayings of Prophet it is mentioned in Quran "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path."(33:36 Quran) If (God forbid) Prophet or Imam himself can commit mistake then how can they show right path?
You have mentioned about mistakes committed by prophets. Every act of Prophet (including mistakes) have some purposes behind it. Some times, these acts may had been demonstrated deliberately to serve as message for the people living at that time and for coming generation. Take example of Hazrat Adam. What we can learn from the story of Hazrat Adam? There is clear message to obey Allah.
On the other hand if you see, Was God not aware that Adam will eat the fruit? Had God not intended to create human beings in this world? Are we existing in this world simple because of small disobedient act of Hazrat Adam? Certainly not. So every act of Prophet (including some of their acts which appears to be the mistake) has some purposes.
Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1139 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:22 am Post subject:
Quote:
For me Noor = Guidance[Light]
Here you are Shiraz, I disagree with your above meaning, sorry but....
some peoples never give up there beliefs sorry again brother but it is true that, these peoples never change their mind once some thing they uttered or some thing they already wrote even after some one prove them wrong, May be they are not ready to accept their defeat even they know that they were wrong before and they are wrong right now I am just talking about for everyone including my self too.
اپنی تنگادی اونچی ہی رکھتے ہے now back to the topic, if we accept the meaning of 'Noor' as 'guidance' as you quoted above then where is the guides for other religions peoples? Does not these peoples deserve guidance from Allah? Why we can't see their guidance? forget about the ismailis because they have guide in thier Imam.
In my opinion, Noor = guidance does not justify Allah's strength and his real power because Allah's noor is way above the 'guidance' Noor is everything it is a light, it is a enlightened power , beautiful, attractive, noble, illumination, wise, radiant and guide, but definitely not only guidance it is too small to definite Allah's noor in only one word "Guidance".
In Ayat -"Noor" Allahtala beautifully explained the true meaning of word "NOOR" giving examples of many things and as a Quranic Ustad you know this better then me.
There was one concern about meaning of Noor. Meaning of Noor is light.
Given below is from the interview of Imam on Sunday Times in 1965
Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?
"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."
Now comes the question of infallibility. In the same interview, it is mentioned
You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?
"The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis......
____________________________________________________________
Shiraz, if you think guide is imperfect, capable of committing errors then answer this question what is need to follow someone who is imperfect?
Why God has sent Noor which can misguide people...Can you give any example where any prophet has misguided people??
It seems you are well aware of Quranic verses. I hope you remember the one, in which Allah says He has purified Ahle-Bayt.
If it is in Quran also that they are purified, then why do you think they can misguide or they are misguided sometimes.
__________________________________________________________
In Quran in Surah Noor it is mentioned that Allah is Noor of Earth and Heavens. So I hope you can see it clearly there.
In one of the earlier post, Karim mentioned that Imam can appear different depending on audience. Its true
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God. If you consider me your Spiritual Father, I am your Spiritual Father. If you consider me your Imam, I am your Imam. If you consider me only your friend, I am your friend and so on. It depends on your faith. You, too, are a different person to different people: you are son to your parents, a father to your children, a brother to your siblings, etc. But anybody who considers me God at a Shariati level is no better than a “Bhut Parast”(idol worshipper or an iconolater). At the Marfati level, this question does not arise”.
(Source: My glorious fortnight with Sir Sultan Mohamed Shah) You can read the complete text from anecdote section, if you wish so.
Very well put together, brother monir. If one (viru) has a little belief (Iman) and intellect, he would get it, but alas he don't.
@shiraz.virani : Then how about your mentor (akbarali maherali)? Does he make mistakes?
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sorry again brother but it is true that, these peoples never change their mind once some thing they uttered or some thing they already wrote even after some one prove them wrong, 
