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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| arshad1988 wrote: |
| The prophets all brought the message of tawheed, i.e. There is no deity/god except Allah. To me, it does not make sense that the Prophet came to abolish polytheism, while he himself is God. The activities of the Arabs before Islam should have been accepted as it was a slightly different interpretation as well. . |
The notion of the Prophet being God is an esoteric one and not for the majority. In Islam there are many tariqahs. The mystical or Sufi tariqahs highlight the Noor aspect of the Prophet and hence we have the notion of the Nur-i-Muhammadi.
As I said earlier, we must respect the multiplicity of interpretations. |
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binom1
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The notion of the Prophet being God is an esoteric one and not for the majority. In Islam there are many tariqahs. The mystical or Sufi tariqahs highlight the Noor aspect of the Prophet and hence we have the notion of the Nur-i-Muhammadi. |
Kmaherali, don't speak about that which you don't know. You know nothing about the concept of Haqiqah Muhammadiyya in Tasawwuf. You even phrase it incorrectly - which is, I would say, very telling of your empty attempt to read it along 'Ismaili lines'. In other words, don't read Ismailism into Tasawwuf. |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| binom1 wrote: |
Kmaherali, don't speak about that which you don't know. You know nothing about the concept of Haqiqah Muhammadiyya in Tasawwuf. You even phrase it incorrectly - which is, I would say, very telling of your empty attempt to read it along 'Ismaili lines'. In other words, don't read Ismailism into Tasawwuf. |
Annemarie Schimmel who was one of the most respected scholars in Sufism states in her book And Muhammad Is His Messenger:
"One of the central themes (if not the cemtral theme) of mystical prophetology is that of the Light of Muhammad, nur Muhammad. It is like the light of the sun around which everything revolves; it is that 'light of the name" which Iqbal as so many poets before him, mention in his verse."
I was simply reflecting the above in my post. Your knowledge of Sufism is misplaced. |
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shiraz123
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Annemarie Schimmel who was one of the most respected scholars in Sufism states in her book And Muhammad Is His Messenger:
"One of the central themes (if not the cemtral theme) of mystical prophetology is that of the Light of Muhammad, nur Muhammad. It is like the light of the sun around which everything revolves; it is that 'light of the name" which Iqbal as so many poets before him, mention in his verse."
I was simply reflecting the above in my post. Your knowledge of Sufism is misplaced. |
I understand and respect that every person has his/her interpretation which is not the curse but mercy of allah[swt]
I totally agree with you brother meherali , but what i dont agree with is all the ismaili missionaries, teachers etc etc are teaching our jamat AGAKHAN = ALLAH [swt]
why are we teaching this ??? We know its a shirk...why are we doing that then ?
arent we supposed to teach our brothers that agakhan unlike rasool[saw] is a human but with a difference....and that difference is that rasool[saw] used to get revelation .....................from ALLAH [swt] through H.Jibraeel [as] where as agakhan is nomore than the representative of allah[swt] who will be called on the judgement day along with his followers [MENTIONED IN QURAN]
This is exactly what holy quran talks about
1] making a vicar
2] sending prophets[as] and imams[as] [representative]
3] on judgement day rasool[saw] will be the carrier of torch followed by all the imams [ not just shia ] but all those imams who taught [good or bad] and then we will be judged by allah[swt] in the presence of rasool[saw] as to what rasool[saw] taught us and what we learned.
Aga Khan is just like any other imam who teaches faith and compassion without a doubt that he is one of the most outstanding and outspoken person which a distinctive charm and tolerance.....The one who supports pluralism and unity ....and i respect that
but i cannot call him allah[swt] because he is above all that
always remember brother , god made vicar....then came representatives[rasools and imams[as]].....and finally those representatives will be called on judgement day and will be judged....insha allah
thank you |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| shiraz123 wrote: |
I totally agree with you brother meherali , but what i dont agree with is all the ismaili missionaries, teachers etc etc are teaching our jamat AGAKHAN = ALLAH [swt]
why are we teaching this ??? We know its a shirk...why are we doing that then ? |
The notion of Imam = Allah has been discussed already in this thread in relation to the role of the Imam as a wasila and him being interpreted as the Lamp in the verse (24:35).
The verse states that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Imams according to Shia interpretation are the bearers of the Noor (the Lamp that gives the Light). Hence Imam = Allah is not shirk. |
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shiraz123
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:34 am Post subject: |
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brother meherali....waisila = way or zariya , correct ?
so wasila is "MEANS or ZARIYA" by which we can reach allah[swt]
how can we say that this ZARIYA or WAY = allah[swt] ???
iam not saying that taking imam[as] as zariya or wasila is wrong, what iam saying is how can we make that zariya as allah[swt] himself ?
see when we take zariya as allah[swt] then whats the purpose of reaching allah[swt] ?? are you getting my point ???
hope i answered your question |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| shiraz123 wrote: |
brother meherali....waisila = way or zariya , correct ?
so wasila is "MEANS or ZARIYA" by which we can reach allah[swt]
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It seems you do not want to read the thread. Wasila means interecession, it does not mean the way. If you read my answer, I said the fact that the Imams act and wasila and they are the bearers of the Noor, that Imam = Allah is not shirk. Please read the whole thread. |
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arshad1988
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| What then, would be an example of shirk? |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| arshad1988 wrote: |
| What then, would be an example of shirk? |
Why do keep asking the same question over and over when the answer has been provided. Go to page 2 of this thread... |
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arshad1988
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| I.e what is your understanding of polytheism, idolatry and pantheism |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| arshad1988 wrote: |
| I.e what is your understanding of polytheism, idolatry and pantheism |
I am agreeable to the commonly held definitions such as the ones in the wikepedia. This issue does not require adopting any uncommon ideas with respect to this terms. |
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shiraz.virani
Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 894
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: |
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brother meherali, i dint mean to offend you and if i did....my apologies !
brother you said WASILA = INTERCESSION .....so if MHI is going to intercede on our behalf on judgement day IN FRONT OF ALLAH[swt], how can we say that the one who intercede is ALLAH[swt] himself ??
Iam not fighting with you sir....iam just trying to understand the concept ..please kindly help me !!
thank you |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9913
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| shiraz.virani wrote: |
brother you said WASILA = INTERCESSION .....so if MHI is going to intercede on our behalf on judgement day IN FRONT OF ALLAH[swt], how can we say that the one who intercede is ALLAH[swt] himself ??
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Brother, in my previous reply to you I said:
"It seems you do not want to read the thread. Wasila means interecession, it does not mean the way. If you read my answer, I said the fact that the Imams act and wasila and they are the bearers of the Noor, that Imam = Allah is not shirk. Please read the whole thread."
In other words it is not only because they perform wasila that they are considered as Allah but also because they are the bearers of the Noor of which I have explained earlier in this thread. You just won't read it. |
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binom1
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Annemarie Schimmel who was one of the most respected scholars in Sufism states in her book And Muhammad Is His Messenger:
"One of the central themes (if not the cemtral theme) of mystical prophetology is that of the Light of Muhammad, nur Muhammad. It is like the light of the sun around which everything revolves; it is that 'light of the name" which Iqbal as so many poets before him, mention in his verse."
I was simply reflecting the above in my post. |
What Annemarie Schimmel calls it is irrelevant. The point is that you know nothing about the concept of Haqiqah Muhammadiyyah in Tasawwauf – as you showed when you tried to compare it with one of your doctrines (i.e. you’re imam being God, etc,.) in trying to answer the user arshad1988.
| Quote: |
| Your knowledge of Sufism is misplaced. |
As an Ismaili, it’s hilarious that you should say something like that. Especially so, given you’re unwarranted, far-fetched beliefs and interpretations. |
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