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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Is Mawlana Hazar Imam a Muslim?
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Is Mawlana Hazar Imam a Muslim?
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not denying it and I said it could be due to ignorance. Perhaps the introduction of the Ismaili Namaz will serve as a wake up call for those who are not aware that one could also pracice the Namaz if he had the capacity to do so in addition to Dua.


Read what the user Kandani has said above. He thinks, unlike you, that the dua’ is the salaat/namaz for Ismailis. The majority of Ismailis think that as well. So are you accusing them all of ignorance?

Quote:
To me it is irrelevant what other Muslims perceive, what matters to me is what parts of the Sharia complement my Tariqah practices.


Do you mean the sharia’ that is common to all Muslims? If you do, then there aren’t any as you (Ismailis) don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims. Just read what the user Kandani wrote.

Quote:
As I have continued to say there has been a relationship between Dua and Namaz albeit even as Namaz for Friday. This does not negate the coexistence


I said (in my last post): your imam was clearly talking about a ‘historic co-existence’ between the dua’ of Ismailis and the salaat/namaz that is common to all Muslims. Can you provide me with concrete examples of this ‘historic co-existence’ (between, as your imam says, the salaat/namaz that Muslims perform and the dua’ of Ismailis) and not between some Ismaili namaz (there isnt’ one) and Ismaili dua’? As far as I’m aware, there hasn’t been any ‘historic co-existence’ between the dua’ of Ismailis and the salaat/namaz that Sunnis/Shias generally pray. On the contrary, other Muslims have generally been hostile to Ismailis because of their (unorthodox) beliefs and practices. This has continued up to our own day, because the majority of Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, regard your practices (i.e. dua’ in place of the salaat/namaz, etc) as heretical. If you can’t give me concrete examples, then that does negate the so-called ‘historic co-existence’.

Quote:
… but it does not change the coexistence if all Ismailis do not use.


What?

Quote:
Both are right according to their perceptions. As I said before the Imam appears according to the capacity of individuals. For an undeserving he would appear not divine wheras to the deserving he would appear divine.


If both of them are right, why do you label one undeserving and the other deserving? I don’t think you can do that. One person’s perception (i.e. he is noor) is no better and no truer than the others’ (i.e. he is not nor) because both are subjective. They are both equally right to those individuals i.e. the claim that your imam is not the noor is as true as the claim that he is noor. Wouldn’t you agree?


Quote:
So the next question you would ask, who is right? I would answer by their integrity and strength of their ideas and the trust they have established.


I’m not sure I understand.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kmeharali - Unfortunately, I perceive that the user binom1 is dead set to declare Ismailis as heretics.


I don’t declare Ismailis to be heretics. I just have certain disagreements with them (on some issues).

Quote:
Bionm1 perceives that Ismailis do not practice sharia and therefore are doomed.


I don’t think that Ismailis are doomed.

Quote:
And there is no place or need for Imam-e-Zaman, who Ismailis believes gives divine guidance according to the times.


I don’t think he is necessary for salvation.


Quote:
No matter, how many ethical, intellectual or spiritual arguments are provided, bionm1 is all decided on what he wants.


No one (I think) has provided any ethical, intellectual or spiritual arguments here.

Quote:
binom1, pls. try to learn to respect Ismailis as brothers/sisters in Islam, or at least as humans who have right to their belief, to live a peaceful existence with others. They share and exercise their consciousness of Islam through the great and exemplary works of Aga Khan Development Network.


Although I have certain disagreements with Ismailis, I nevertheless respect them. They have the right to believe in what they believe (as does everyone). I haven’t said otherwise. I think what the AKDN is doing is great.

Quote:
Ismailis cherish the diversity and respects all traditions of Islam as we are all bounded by same Shahada. The ethics of Islam does not allow us to live in hatred. Let's rise to our humanity and as humanity is our strongest bond.


I would agree. And let me add that I don’t have any ‘hate’ for Ismailis because of my disagreements with them over certain doctrinal matters. I just simply have certain disagreements with them, that’s all.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9942

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:

Read what the user Kandani has said above. He thinks, unlike you, that the dua’ is the salaat/namaz for Ismailis. The majority of Ismailis think that as well. So are you accusing them all of ignorance?.

There are diverse interpretations of our faith even within our Jamat. Most Ismailis are ignorant of the diverse traditions and practices within our Jamat. For example I was ignorant about the tradition of Chirag-i Rawsham which has been practiced by the Ismailis of Central Asia, until the Imam intoduced the standard text to the Jamat. Similarly most Ismailis are ignorant of the fact that they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays only and that the Imam has authorized a standard text for it.
binom1 wrote:

Do you mean the sharia’ that is common to all Muslims? If you do, then there aren’t any as you (Ismailis) don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims. Just read what the user Kandani wrote.

As I mentioned many Ismailis practice Namaz albeit on Fridays, many fast during Ramadhan, some go for Hajj. These are all parts of Sharia common to all Muslims. They may not be obligatory but that does not negate the complementarity with the Tariqah practices.
binom1 wrote:

I said (in my last post): your imam was clearly talking about a ‘historic co-existence’ between the dua’ of Ismailis and the salaat/namaz that is common to all Muslims. Can you provide me with concrete examples of this ‘historic co-existence’ (between, as your imam says, the salaat/namaz that Muslims perform and the dua’ of Ismailis) and not between some Ismaili namaz (there isnt’ one) and Ismaili dua’? .

The fact that Ismailis have been practicing Namaz albeit on Fridays only, shows the coexistence of the Namaz common to all Muslims and the Dua. They are using a Namaz available from other denominations.
binom1 wrote:

Quote:
… but it does not change the coexistence if all Ismailis do not use.


What?.
The Namaz on regular basis.
binom1 wrote:

If both of them are right, why do you label one undeserving and the other deserving? I don’t think you can do that. One person’s perception (i.e. he is noor) is no better and no truer than the others’ (i.e. he is not nor) because both are subjective. They are both equally right to those individuals i.e. the claim that your imam is not the noor is as true as the claim that he is noor. Wouldn’t you agree?.

When I say deserving or undeserving I mean the level or capacity to recognise the Imam as the Noor. The majority of humanity does not have the background knowledge to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence the Imam in the material world does not appear as such. He appears as an ordinary human. Hence if they(the majority) said that the Imam is human, they are right in their judgement.

A child with no knowledge of the solar system would think that the moon is the source of light. According to his knowledge, he is right. An adult with the knowledge of the solar system will consider the sun to be the source of light which the moon reflects. Clearly both are right according to their capacity, however clearly the person with the knowledge of the solar system is objectively correct based on more knowledge.

In the same manner the majority does not have the appropriate background to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence they are right according to their understanding of considering the Imam as a human.

The Ismailis who have a deeper understanding of Imamat see or recognize him as the Noor.
binom1 wrote:

Quote:
So the next question you would ask, who is right? I would answer by their integrity and strength of their ideas and the trust they have established.


I’m not sure I understand.

I am trying here to resolve the dilemma of two perceptions being right. If one person says that the Imam is human and the other says he is Noor, how do I determine what is the truth. I am saying that I would evaluate each person knowledge, ideas and the basis of trust they have established. A Pir's statement would carry more weight for me than another persons statement.
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
.<BR>• If there are two men, o&shy;ne of whom perceives your imam as the perfect man and the other perceives him as the imperfect man, and since both of their perceptions are subjective, would you choose o&shy;ne and deny the other i.e. believe him to be perfect and not imperfect? If so, why? Or would you say they are both right? If so, why? If o&shy;ne of them perceives him as perfect, then the imam is perfect to that person (subjective). But if the other perceives him as imperfect then the imam is imperfect to that person (subjective). Is o&shy;ne of them right and the other wrong? If so, why, when all perceptions of him are subjective (i.e. o&shy;ne is as good as the other) since there is no criterion except individual subjective perceptions? Or are they both right? If so, the imam is then both imperfect and perfect at the same time. But that is a contradiction. How would you try and explain it?


In physics are you aware of the "double slit experiment"? Basically, there are two slits and you shoot electrons through the slit, if you don't make an observation as to which slit the electron is going through it will behave as a wave and you will see a wave spectrum. The minute you add a detector and try to make a determination as to which slit the electron is going through the wave spectrum will disappear and the electron will behave as a particle. It is relative, if you see an electron as a particle it will behave as that and if you see the electron as a wave it will behave as that. This is known as particle-wave duality. So both the observers are right. So there is no real contradiction. It is all in your observation which actually changes the outcome!

Similarly, a person who perceives the Imam of the time, as the perfect man, the Imam will be that to him/her. And I don't mean just in words, you will experience qualities of the Imam of the time that will show you he is perfect/divine. If you don't see him as that you will not experience those qualities of his. So to answer your question in short yes they both are right! To the man who views him as perfect, he is perfect with divine qualities and the one who views him just as a human he is just a human. Again, no contradiction. It is relative to the observer.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9942

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abkb110 wrote:

Similarly, a person who perceives the Imam of the time, as the perfect man, the Imam will be that to him/her. And I don't mean just in words, you will experience qualities of the Imam of the time that will show you he is perfect/divine. If you don't see him as that you will not experience those qualities of his. So to answer your question in short yes they both are right! To the man who views him as perfect, he is perfect with divine qualities and the one who views him just as a human he is just a human. Again, no contradiction. It is relative to the observer.

This reinforces the fact that the Imam appears according to the capacity of the audience. To illustrate the point, below is the description of the first physical encounter between the great Fatimid Ismaili Dai Shirazi with the Imam in his own words. While he was dumb and awe-struck by the experience, the others around him experienced nothing unusual!

"I was taken near the place wherefrom I saw the bright Light of the Prophethood. My eyes were dazzled by the Light. I shed tears of joy and felt as if I was looking at the face of the Prophet of Allah and of the Commander of the Faithful, Hazrat Ali. I prostrated myself before the one who is the fittest person to bow to. I wanted to say something, but 1 was awe-struck... I tried to speak but my tongue refused to move. People asked me to say what I wished to say. I could say nothing. The Imam said, 'Leave him. Let his fear and awe subside.' After this, I rose. I took the holy hand of the Imam, placed it on my eyes and on my chest and then kissed it. I left the place with immense joy."
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Similarly most Ismailis are ignorant of the fact that they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays only and that the Imam has authorized a standard text for it.


I think it’s not that most Ismailis are ignorant that they may recite salaat/namaz. Rather, I think that you are ignorant of the fact that salaat/namaz is not obligatory on Ismailis. Their dua’ is their salat/namaz as the user Kandani has said. No Ismaili, with the exception of you, is in possession of any standard text of salaat/namaz from your imam.

Quote:
As I mentioned many Ismailis practice Namaz albeit on Fridays, many fast during Ramadhan, some go for Hajj. These are all parts of Sharia common to all Muslims. They may not be obligatory but that does not negate the complementarity with the Tariqah practices.


It does not matter if a few Ismailis pray salaat/namaz ‘on Fridays’, fast, etc? Do you think that on account of that you can assert with confidence that Ismailis as a whole perform the salaat/namaz, fast, etc, (i.e. perform the sharia’ common to all Muslims)? No, of course not. By the far the majority of Ismailis don’t do those things because they don’t believe them to be obligatory on them. And it’s not that they are ignorant that it is obligatory on them, it’s that you are ignorant that it is not obligatory on them. I mean you said it yourself; despite the fact that a few Ismailis do those things, the fact still remains that those things i.e. requirements of the sharia’, are not obligatory on all Ismailis.

Quote:
The fact that Ismailis have been practicing Namaz albeit on Fridays only, shows the coexistence of the Namaz common to all Muslims and the Dua. They are using a Namaz available from other denominations.


Again here you make an unwarranted categorical statement about all Ismailis which is simply not true. Ismailis i.e. all Ismalis, don’t practice salaat/namaz, even on Fridays. Only a very few Ismailis do. But that is no reason for you to say that there’s a co-existence between Ismailis practices and the practices common to all Muslims. If anything, I’m more correct in what I say (i.e. that there isn’t any co-existence between their practices) not only because (1) the majority of Ismailis don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims, but also (2) because the majority of Ismailis don’t believe (because of what their imam says) the sharia’ common to all Muslims to be obligatory on them.

Quote:
When I say deserving or undeserving I mean the level or capacity to recognise the Imam as the Noor. The majority of humanity does not have the background knowledge to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence the Imam in the material world does not appear as such. He appears as an ordinary human. Hence if they(the majority) said that the Imam is human, they are right in their judgement.


My point is simply that the person’s perception of your imam as the noor is no truer than the perception of the person who sees him as not the noor since both of their perceptions are subjective. Would you agree with that? Since all perceptions of him are subjective, it does not matter what capacities one has to recognize him as the noor’ and another to recognize him as not the noor since it does not make a difference as to which one of them is correct. If a man has all the knowledge of Ismailism and sees the imam as noor, and another man has no knowledge and sees him as not the noor, his (the second man’s) perception is just as true as the first man’s.

Quote:
A child with no knowledge of the solar system would think that the moon is the source of light. According to his knowledge, he is right. An adult with the knowledge of the solar system will consider the sun to be the source of light which the moon reflects. Clearly both are right according to their capacity, however clearly the person with the knowledge of the solar system is objectively correct based on more knowledge.


The child who thinks that the moon is the source of light is wrong. It is not that he is right according to his knowledge. You’re assuming this issue i.e. the source of the light of our solar system, to be a subjective matter like the perception of your imam. But it’s not, it’s an objective matter. There’s a correct answer i.e. the sun is the source of light, and every other answer i.e. the moon is the source of light, is incorrect. So your analogy does not work. You even contradict yourself toward the end of your paragraph by saying that the person with the knowledge of the universe is “objectively correct”. If he is objectively correct, then how is the child correct in thinking what is contrary to what the man who knows astronomy thinks? The child is plainly wrong and it does matter what it is to him according to his knowledge (because is not a subjective matter).


Quote:
In the same manner the majority does not have the appropriate background to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence they are right according to their understanding of considering the Imam as a human.

The Ismailis who have a deeper understanding of Imamat see or recognize him as the Noor.


They don’t need to recognize the imam as the noor as if that’s the correct understanding of him. It’s not that they don’t have appropriate background and that’s why they don’t recognize him as the noor. There isn’t any appropriate background needed to recognize him as this but not that as if one is more correct than the other. All perceptions of him, according you, are subjective and therefore as true and as valid as any other perception. It seems that people don’t need any deep understanding of the imam to recognize him as the noor either, because, even if they did have this deep understanding, what difference would it make? Their perceptions are still subjective even with this so-called deep understanding and as good and as true as the perceptions of those who don’t have that deep understanding. The matter is subjective so a deep understanding does not mean that one person’s perception of your imam will be truer than someone else’s (who doesn’t have that deep understanding).

Quote:
I am trying here to resolve the dilemma of two perceptions being right. If one person says that the Imam is human and the other says he is Noor, how do I determine what is the truth. I am saying that I would evaluate each person knowledge, ideas and the basis of trust they have established. A Pir's statement would carry more weight for me than another persons statement.


You cannot determine the truth in favour of one (i.e. your pir) and not the other when both are subjective. They both weigh the same no matter how much knowledge, trust, etc, one has and the other doesn’t because they are subjective and only true to the individuals. So a person who believes your imam to not be the noor is just as correct as what your pir believes. All other considerations are irrelevant. If a man likes a certain dish and another does not like that same dish, who is correct? They both are. It does not matter if the man who likes the dish is the best human being and the other person the worst, they are both as correct as each other in liking/not liking the dish, and one can't be more correct than the other because the matter is subjective.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Similarly, a person who perceives the Imam of the time, as the perfect man, the Imam will be that to him/her. And I don't mean just in words, you will experience qualities of the Imam of the time that will show you he is perfect/divine. If you don't see him as that you will not experience those qualities of his. So to answer your question in short yes they both are right! To the man who views him as perfect, he is perfect with divine qualities and the one who views him just as a human he is just a human. Again, no contradiction. It is relative to the observer.


So you would agree with me that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries), correct?
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
<BR>So you would agree with me that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries), correct?


I think you are missing the point. Let's say the person who percieves him as imperfect was to start seeing him as perfect/divine, they would experience those qualities of his. But if someone were to start seeing you or me as perfect/divine they would not experience anything. And this property of being able to experience his divinity based on your faith is what makes him special. Its not about who is correct or incorrect. Its about elevating yourself to a level to see this. So yeah the person who doesn't experience anything is correct but thats because of their own limitation not because of the Imam's limitation.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think you are missing the point. Let's say the person who percieves him as imperfect was to start seeing him as perfect/divine, they would experience those qualities of his. But if someone were to start seeing you or me as perfect/divine they would not experience anything. And this property of being able to experience his divinity based on your faith is what makes him special. Its not about who is correct or incorrect. Its about elevating yourself to a level to see this. So yeah the person who doesn't experience anything is correct but thats because of their own limitation not because of the Imam's limitation.


I think it is you that is missing the point. If someone perceives your imam as imperfect then he experiences him as imperfect i.e. his imperfect qualities, etc., (something which you yourself believe) and is correct is his perception of him. How someone perceives me or you is irrelevant to the point. What difference does elevating yourself make to the truth of a person’s perceptions of the imam when all perceptions of him are subjective anyway? If one man is elevated and perceives him as perfect and another is not elevated and perceives him as imperfect, and since all perceptions of the imam are subjective, they are/must be equally correct. one person’s perception is as true as the other's, regardless of the level of their spiritual elevation because, again, it makes no difference to the truth of their perceptions (since they’re subjective) but only to the kind of perception they have (i.e. perfect or imperfect, which is besides the point). So I ask you again: would agree that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries)? Just a yes or no answer would be fine.
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sheza



Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom, not sure where you are going with this, but how can anyone say that my perception is right or wrong, my perception can't be judged by your perception of my perception.

the only thing that could be up for debate is whether my perception is based on logic or faith? and if its not based on logic, thats the end of that discussion aswell.
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sunnydays



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bionom 1

There are many phrases and concepts that we use that are abstract, poetic, and esoteric. And even these words don't always do justice in reflecting what we believe and feel.

So, you probably wouldn't understand or accurately understand these concepts if you took them on face value.

You said you respect the AKDN - here's on example of the kinds of physical/real things that manifest from our beliefs. Our beliefs are private, but our actions and contributions to the world around us as a result of our beliefs speak for us.
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
I think it is you that is missing the point. If someone perceives your imam as imperfect then he experiences him as imperfect i.e. his imperfect qualities, etc., (something which you yourself believe) and is correct is his perception of him. How someone perceives me or you is irrelevant to the point. What difference does elevating yourself make to the truth of a person’s perceptions of the imam when all perceptions of him are subjective anyway? If one man is elevated and perceives him as perfect and another is not elevated and perceives him as imperfect, and since all perceptions of the imam are subjective, they are/must be equally correct. one person’s perception is as true as the other's, regardless of the level of their spiritual elevation because, again, it makes no difference to the truth of their perceptions (since they’re subjective) but only to the kind of perception they have (i.e. perfect or imperfect, which is besides the point). So I ask you again: would agree that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries)? Just a yes or no answer would be fine.


It's funny how you give paragraphs after paragraphs of response but expect us to answer with a simple "yes" or "no". Unfortunately, this subject isn't a binary matter. It goes beyond logic\reasoning and requires detailed explanation (for someone who is new to this like yourself). Now to make the point much more clear to you (obviously you are missing it), I am again telling you just cause you experience the Imam as imperfect it's your own limitation not the Imams. of course how you and me are perceived is relevant to the point because if a person who is capable of showing perfection /divinity based on others observation of him must be superior than someone who doesn't display such attributes (like me and yourself). And coming to the matter of who is correct. It's like me asking you is the person who is seeing the electron as a particle (with mass and charge) correct or the person who is seeing the electron as a wave (displays a spectrum) correct? How does one answer that? All we know is that it is both (duality) and its wave nature is far more superior than its particle nature. And you decide what you want to see. And again I will tell you what you want to see is in your hands and what you don't see is due to your own limitation.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1058

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="abkb110"]
binom1 wrote:
Quote:
I think it is you that is missing the point. If someone perceives your imam as imperfect then he experiences him as imperfect i.e. his imperfect qualities, etc., (something which you yourself believe) and is correct is his perception of him. How someone perceives me or you is irrelevant to the point. What difference does elevating yourself make to the truth of a person’s perceptions of the imam when all perceptions of him are subjective anyway? If one man is elevated and perceives him as perfect and another is not elevated and perceives him as imperfect, and since all perceptions of the imam are subjective, they are/must be equally correct. one person’s perception is as true as the other's, regardless of the level of their spiritual elevation because, again, it makes no difference to the truth of their perceptions (since they’re subjective) but only to the kind of perception they have (i.e. perfect or imperfect, which is besides the point). So I ask you again: would agree that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries)? Just a yes or no answer would be fine.


It's funny how you give paragraphs after paragraphs of response but expect us to answer with a simple "yes" or "no". Unfortunately, this subject isn't a binary matter. It goes beyond logic\reasoning and requires detailed explanation (for someone who is new to this like yourself). Now to make the point much more clear to you (obviously you are missing it), I am again telling you just cause you experience the Imam as imperfect it's your own limitation not the Imams. of course how you and me are perceived is relevant to the point because if a person who is capable of showing perfection /divinity based on others observation of him must be superior than someone who doesn't display such attributes (like me and yourself). And coming to the matter of who is correct. It's like me asking you is the person who is seeing the electron as a particle (with mass and charge) correct or the person who is seeing the electron as a wave (displays a spectrum) correct? How does one answer that? All we know is that it is both (duality) and its wave nature is far more superior than its particle nature. And you decide what you want to see. And again I will tell you what you want to see is in your hands and what you don't see is due to your own limitation.


Well put.

Binom - just because you have your eyes closed and have a blindfold over them - and keep insisting you can't see the sun at high noon - doesn't mean the sun isn't out or up, just means you can't see the sun....

Does that take anything away from the Sun? or from the others who can see the Sun?

Shams
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1058

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Binom,

You're trying to reason with a bunch of fanatics - we're not going to get what you're saying..even though it makes perfect sense and logic to you - just doesn't make sense or logic to us. We have lost our sense of reason and balance - or as they say..we've drunk the Kool-Aid. You should escape before we pull you into our whirlpool and get you confused as well.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:
[I think it’s not that most Ismailis are ignorant that they may recite salaat/namaz. Rather, I think that you are ignorant of the fact that salaat/namaz is not obligatory on Ismailis. Their dua’ is their salat/namaz as the user Kandani has said. No Ismaili, with the exception of you, is in possession of any standard text of salaat/namaz from your imam. .

I said "they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays" so where is the ignorance about the Namaz not being obligatory. In other words I have maintained that Namaz is not obligatory. The Imam has approved the text whether is is available or not. In any case it is not meant to be obligatory.
binom1 wrote:
I mean you said it yourself; despite the fact that a few Ismailis do those things, the fact still remains that those things i.e. requirements of the sharia’, are not obligatory on all Ismailis. .

Yes and I said that they are not obligatory, yet my point is that there is complementarity even though it is not obligatory. A complemetary practice need not be obligatory.
binom1 wrote:
Again here you make an unwarranted categorical statement about all Ismailis which is simply not true. Ismailis i.e. all Ismalis, don’t practice salaat/namaz, even on Fridays. Only a very few Ismailis do. But that is no reason for you to say that there’s a co-existence between Ismailis practices and the practices common to all Muslims. .

Even if a few Ismails practice it, it shows a coexistence however weak it may appear to be. If I have a choice of performing Namaz in addition to my Dua, it still shows coexistence. On the occasions of Eid, the entire congregartion recites Idd Namaz....
binom1 wrote:

My point is simply that the person’s perception of your imam as the noor is no truer than the perception of the person who sees him as not the noor since both of their perceptions are subjective. Would you agree with that? Since all perceptions of him are subjective, it does not matter what capacities one has to recognize him as the noor’ and another to recognize him as not the noor since it does not make a difference as to which one of them is correct. If a man has all the knowledge of Ismailism and sees the imam as noor, and another man has no knowledge and sees him as not the noor, his (the second man’s) perception is just as true as the first man’s. .
Yes true but relative to their own capacity, I will elaborate this below when talking about the child's perception of the light of the moon.
binom1 wrote:

The child who thinks that the moon is the source of light is wrong. It is not that he is right according to his knowledge. .
As far as the child is concerned he will never be able to understand that the sun is the source of the light because he does not have the tools to understand that. All children in that category will hold the same opinion. However when they do grow with more knowledge the view changes. Similarly there are layers of perceiving reality depending upon individual capacity. In relation to the Pir I am a child and hence I just cannot know what he knows because I have not developed to his capacity. I only obey him because of the trust.
binom1 wrote:
You’re assuming this issue i.e. the source of the light of our solar system, to be a subjective matter like the perception of your imam. But it’s not, it’s an objective matter. There’s a correct answer i.e. the sun is the source of light, and every other answer i.e. the moon is the source of light, is incorrect. So your analogy does not work. You even contradict yourself toward the end of your paragraph by saying that the person with the knowledge of the universe is “objectively correct”. If he is objectively correct, then how is the child correct in thinking what is contrary to what the man who knows astronomy thinks? The child is plainly wrong and it does matter what it is to him according to his knowledge (because is not a subjective matter).
Just as the child with no knowledge of solar system cannot know that the sun is the source of the light of the moon, similarly an ordinary person without the background knowledge of mysticism and Sufism cannot know the Imam beyond his human nature. The fact that the Imam can appear as Divine to some is an indication that there is an added dimension to his reality. Although both perceptions are right relative to the observers, the person with a deeper understanding of Imamat will perceive one correct and the other incorrect due to lack of background. The objectivity comes with knowledge, just as a person with knowledge of the solar system will know that the child is wrong and cannot have the capacity to know the truth, an Ismaili with a knowdlege of the Imam will know that the Imam is Divine and that the other person does not have the capacity to know him. Hence we are discouraged to shout aloud that the Imam is Divine because it will simply make no sense to others who do not have the background.
binom1 wrote:
It seems that people don’t need any deep understanding of the imam to recognize him as the noor either, because, even if they did have this deep understanding, what difference would it make? Their perceptions are still subjective even with this so-called deep understanding and as good and as true as the perceptions of those who don’t have that deep understanding. The matter is subjective so a deep understanding does not mean that one person’s perception of your imam will be truer than someone else’s (who doesn’t have that deep understanding).
It would make a difference because the Imam appears according to the capacity of the individual. In an esoteric tradition the deeper the knowledge and purity, the truer the perceptions. The perceptions of the Prophet would be truer than those of an ordinary person. Otherwise what is the basis of accepting the Prophet and the Quran if the exprience of Prophet is no truer than any other person? In the case of Ismailism recognition of Imam as Noor comes with knowledge and hence there are levels of recognition.
binom1 wrote:
If a man likes a certain dish and another does not like that same dish, who is correct? They both are. It does not matter if the man who likes the dish is the best human being and the other person the worst, they are both as correct as each other in liking/not liking the dish, and one can't be more correct than the other because the matter is subjective.
They are both corect according to their perception and knowledge. However if one person said that he did not like the dish because it contained pork and the other person said that he liked it because it tasted good, then wouldn't that change the evaluation?
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