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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Is Mawlana Hazar Imam a Muslim?
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Is Mawlana Hazar Imam a Muslim?
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not denying it and I said it could be due to ignorance. Perhaps the introduction of the Ismaili Namaz will serve as a wake up call for those who are not aware that one could also pracice the Namaz if he had the capacity to do so in addition to Dua.


Read what the user Kandani has said above. He thinks, unlike you, that the dua’ is the salaat/namaz for Ismailis. The majority of Ismailis think that as well. So are you accusing them all of ignorance?

Quote:
To me it is irrelevant what other Muslims perceive, what matters to me is what parts of the Sharia complement my Tariqah practices.


Do you mean the sharia’ that is common to all Muslims? If you do, then there aren’t any as you (Ismailis) don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims. Just read what the user Kandani wrote.

Quote:
As I have continued to say there has been a relationship between Dua and Namaz albeit even as Namaz for Friday. This does not negate the coexistence


I said (in my last post): your imam was clearly talking about a ‘historic co-existence’ between the dua’ of Ismailis and the salaat/namaz that is common to all Muslims. Can you provide me with concrete examples of this ‘historic co-existence’ (between, as your imam says, the salaat/namaz that Muslims perform and the dua’ of Ismailis) and not between some Ismaili namaz (there isnt’ one) and Ismaili dua’? As far as I’m aware, there hasn’t been any ‘historic co-existence’ between the dua’ of Ismailis and the salaat/namaz that Sunnis/Shias generally pray. On the contrary, other Muslims have generally been hostile to Ismailis because of their (unorthodox) beliefs and practices. This has continued up to our own day, because the majority of Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, regard your practices (i.e. dua’ in place of the salaat/namaz, etc) as heretical. If you can’t give me concrete examples, then that does negate the so-called ‘historic co-existence’.

Quote:
… but it does not change the coexistence if all Ismailis do not use.


What?

Quote:
Both are right according to their perceptions. As I said before the Imam appears according to the capacity of individuals. For an undeserving he would appear not divine wheras to the deserving he would appear divine.


If both of them are right, why do you label one undeserving and the other deserving? I don’t think you can do that. One person’s perception (i.e. he is noor) is no better and no truer than the others’ (i.e. he is not nor) because both are subjective. They are both equally right to those individuals i.e. the claim that your imam is not the noor is as true as the claim that he is noor. Wouldn’t you agree?


Quote:
So the next question you would ask, who is right? I would answer by their integrity and strength of their ideas and the trust they have established.


I’m not sure I understand.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kmeharali - Unfortunately, I perceive that the user binom1 is dead set to declare Ismailis as heretics.


I don’t declare Ismailis to be heretics. I just have certain disagreements with them (on some issues).

Quote:
Bionm1 perceives that Ismailis do not practice sharia and therefore are doomed.


I don’t think that Ismailis are doomed.

Quote:
And there is no place or need for Imam-e-Zaman, who Ismailis believes gives divine guidance according to the times.


I don’t think he is necessary for salvation.


Quote:
No matter, how many ethical, intellectual or spiritual arguments are provided, bionm1 is all decided on what he wants.


No one (I think) has provided any ethical, intellectual or spiritual arguments here.

Quote:
binom1, pls. try to learn to respect Ismailis as brothers/sisters in Islam, or at least as humans who have right to their belief, to live a peaceful existence with others. They share and exercise their consciousness of Islam through the great and exemplary works of Aga Khan Development Network.


Although I have certain disagreements with Ismailis, I nevertheless respect them. They have the right to believe in what they believe (as does everyone). I haven’t said otherwise. I think what the AKDN is doing is great.

Quote:
Ismailis cherish the diversity and respects all traditions of Islam as we are all bounded by same Shahada. The ethics of Islam does not allow us to live in hatred. Let's rise to our humanity and as humanity is our strongest bond.


I would agree. And let me add that I don’t have any ‘hate’ for Ismailis because of my disagreements with them over certain doctrinal matters. I just simply have certain disagreements with them, that’s all.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15388

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:

Read what the user Kandani has said above. He thinks, unlike you, that the dua’ is the salaat/namaz for Ismailis. The majority of Ismailis think that as well. So are you accusing them all of ignorance?.

There are diverse interpretations of our faith even within our Jamat. Most Ismailis are ignorant of the diverse traditions and practices within our Jamat. For example I was ignorant about the tradition of Chirag-i Rawsham which has been practiced by the Ismailis of Central Asia, until the Imam intoduced the standard text to the Jamat. Similarly most Ismailis are ignorant of the fact that they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays only and that the Imam has authorized a standard text for it.
binom1 wrote:

Do you mean the sharia’ that is common to all Muslims? If you do, then there aren’t any as you (Ismailis) don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims. Just read what the user Kandani wrote.

As I mentioned many Ismailis practice Namaz albeit on Fridays, many fast during Ramadhan, some go for Hajj. These are all parts of Sharia common to all Muslims. They may not be obligatory but that does not negate the complementarity with the Tariqah practices.
binom1 wrote:

I said (in my last post): your imam was clearly talking about a ‘historic co-existence’ between the dua’ of Ismailis and the salaat/namaz that is common to all Muslims. Can you provide me with concrete examples of this ‘historic co-existence’ (between, as your imam says, the salaat/namaz that Muslims perform and the dua’ of Ismailis) and not between some Ismaili namaz (there isnt’ one) and Ismaili dua’? .

The fact that Ismailis have been practicing Namaz albeit on Fridays only, shows the coexistence of the Namaz common to all Muslims and the Dua. They are using a Namaz available from other denominations.
binom1 wrote:

Quote:
… but it does not change the coexistence if all Ismailis do not use.


What?.
The Namaz on regular basis.
binom1 wrote:

If both of them are right, why do you label one undeserving and the other deserving? I don’t think you can do that. One person’s perception (i.e. he is noor) is no better and no truer than the others’ (i.e. he is not nor) because both are subjective. They are both equally right to those individuals i.e. the claim that your imam is not the noor is as true as the claim that he is noor. Wouldn’t you agree?.

When I say deserving or undeserving I mean the level or capacity to recognise the Imam as the Noor. The majority of humanity does not have the background knowledge to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence the Imam in the material world does not appear as such. He appears as an ordinary human. Hence if they(the majority) said that the Imam is human, they are right in their judgement.

A child with no knowledge of the solar system would think that the moon is the source of light. According to his knowledge, he is right. An adult with the knowledge of the solar system will consider the sun to be the source of light which the moon reflects. Clearly both are right according to their capacity, however clearly the person with the knowledge of the solar system is objectively correct based on more knowledge.

In the same manner the majority does not have the appropriate background to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence they are right according to their understanding of considering the Imam as a human.

The Ismailis who have a deeper understanding of Imamat see or recognize him as the Noor.
binom1 wrote:

Quote:
So the next question you would ask, who is right? I would answer by their integrity and strength of their ideas and the trust they have established.


I’m not sure I understand.

I am trying here to resolve the dilemma of two perceptions being right. If one person says that the Imam is human and the other says he is Noor, how do I determine what is the truth. I am saying that I would evaluate each person knowledge, ideas and the basis of trust they have established. A Pir's statement would carry more weight for me than another persons statement.
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
.<BR>• If there are two men, o&shy;ne of whom perceives your imam as the perfect man and the other perceives him as the imperfect man, and since both of their perceptions are subjective, would you choose o&shy;ne and deny the other i.e. believe him to be perfect and not imperfect? If so, why? Or would you say they are both right? If so, why? If o&shy;ne of them perceives him as perfect, then the imam is perfect to that person (subjective). But if the other perceives him as imperfect then the imam is imperfect to that person (subjective). Is o&shy;ne of them right and the other wrong? If so, why, when all perceptions of him are subjective (i.e. o&shy;ne is as good as the other) since there is no criterion except individual subjective perceptions? Or are they both right? If so, the imam is then both imperfect and perfect at the same time. But that is a contradiction. How would you try and explain it?


In physics are you aware of the "double slit experiment"? Basically, there are two slits and you shoot electrons through the slit, if you don't make an observation as to which slit the electron is going through it will behave as a wave and you will see a wave spectrum. The minute you add a detector and try to make a determination as to which slit the electron is going through the wave spectrum will disappear and the electron will behave as a particle. It is relative, if you see an electron as a particle it will behave as that and if you see the electron as a wave it will behave as that. This is known as particle-wave duality. So both the observers are right. So there is no real contradiction. It is all in your observation which actually changes the outcome!

Similarly, a person who perceives the Imam of the time, as the perfect man, the Imam will be that to him/her. And I don't mean just in words, you will experience qualities of the Imam of the time that will show you he is perfect/divine. If you don't see him as that you will not experience those qualities of his. So to answer your question in short yes they both are right! To the man who views him as perfect, he is perfect with divine qualities and the one who views him just as a human he is just a human. Again, no contradiction. It is relative to the observer.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15388

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abkb110 wrote:

Similarly, a person who perceives the Imam of the time, as the perfect man, the Imam will be that to him/her. And I don't mean just in words, you will experience qualities of the Imam of the time that will show you he is perfect/divine. If you don't see him as that you will not experience those qualities of his. So to answer your question in short yes they both are right! To the man who views him as perfect, he is perfect with divine qualities and the one who views him just as a human he is just a human. Again, no contradiction. It is relative to the observer.

This reinforces the fact that the Imam appears according to the capacity of the audience. To illustrate the point, below is the description of the first physical encounter between the great Fatimid Ismaili Dai Shirazi with the Imam in his own words. While he was dumb and awe-struck by the experience, the others around him experienced nothing unusual!

"I was taken near the place wherefrom I saw the bright Light of the Prophethood. My eyes were dazzled by the Light. I shed tears of joy and felt as if I was looking at the face of the Prophet of Allah and of the Commander of the Faithful, Hazrat Ali. I prostrated myself before the one who is the fittest person to bow to. I wanted to say something, but 1 was awe-struck... I tried to speak but my tongue refused to move. People asked me to say what I wished to say. I could say nothing. The Imam said, 'Leave him. Let his fear and awe subside.' After this, I rose. I took the holy hand of the Imam, placed it on my eyes and on my chest and then kissed it. I left the place with immense joy."
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Similarly most Ismailis are ignorant of the fact that they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays only and that the Imam has authorized a standard text for it.


I think it’s not that most Ismailis are ignorant that they may recite salaat/namaz. Rather, I think that you are ignorant of the fact that salaat/namaz is not obligatory on Ismailis. Their dua’ is their salat/namaz as the user Kandani has said. No Ismaili, with the exception of you, is in possession of any standard text of salaat/namaz from your imam.

Quote:
As I mentioned many Ismailis practice Namaz albeit on Fridays, many fast during Ramadhan, some go for Hajj. These are all parts of Sharia common to all Muslims. They may not be obligatory but that does not negate the complementarity with the Tariqah practices.


It does not matter if a few Ismailis pray salaat/namaz ‘on Fridays’, fast, etc? Do you think that on account of that you can assert with confidence that Ismailis as a whole perform the salaat/namaz, fast, etc, (i.e. perform the sharia’ common to all Muslims)? No, of course not. By the far the majority of Ismailis don’t do those things because they don’t believe them to be obligatory on them. And it’s not that they are ignorant that it is obligatory on them, it’s that you are ignorant that it is not obligatory on them. I mean you said it yourself; despite the fact that a few Ismailis do those things, the fact still remains that those things i.e. requirements of the sharia’, are not obligatory on all Ismailis.

Quote:
The fact that Ismailis have been practicing Namaz albeit on Fridays only, shows the coexistence of the Namaz common to all Muslims and the Dua. They are using a Namaz available from other denominations.


Again here you make an unwarranted categorical statement about all Ismailis which is simply not true. Ismailis i.e. all Ismalis, don’t practice salaat/namaz, even on Fridays. Only a very few Ismailis do. But that is no reason for you to say that there’s a co-existence between Ismailis practices and the practices common to all Muslims. If anything, I’m more correct in what I say (i.e. that there isn’t any co-existence between their practices) not only because (1) the majority of Ismailis don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims, but also (2) because the majority of Ismailis don’t believe (because of what their imam says) the sharia’ common to all Muslims to be obligatory on them.

Quote:
When I say deserving or undeserving I mean the level or capacity to recognise the Imam as the Noor. The majority of humanity does not have the background knowledge to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence the Imam in the material world does not appear as such. He appears as an ordinary human. Hence if they(the majority) said that the Imam is human, they are right in their judgement.


My point is simply that the person’s perception of your imam as the noor is no truer than the perception of the person who sees him as not the noor since both of their perceptions are subjective. Would you agree with that? Since all perceptions of him are subjective, it does not matter what capacities one has to recognize him as the noor’ and another to recognize him as not the noor since it does not make a difference as to which one of them is correct. If a man has all the knowledge of Ismailism and sees the imam as noor, and another man has no knowledge and sees him as not the noor, his (the second man’s) perception is just as true as the first man’s.

Quote:
A child with no knowledge of the solar system would think that the moon is the source of light. According to his knowledge, he is right. An adult with the knowledge of the solar system will consider the sun to be the source of light which the moon reflects. Clearly both are right according to their capacity, however clearly the person with the knowledge of the solar system is objectively correct based on more knowledge.


The child who thinks that the moon is the source of light is wrong. It is not that he is right according to his knowledge. You’re assuming this issue i.e. the source of the light of our solar system, to be a subjective matter like the perception of your imam. But it’s not, it’s an objective matter. There’s a correct answer i.e. the sun is the source of light, and every other answer i.e. the moon is the source of light, is incorrect. So your analogy does not work. You even contradict yourself toward the end of your paragraph by saying that the person with the knowledge of the universe is “objectively correct”. If he is objectively correct, then how is the child correct in thinking what is contrary to what the man who knows astronomy thinks? The child is plainly wrong and it does matter what it is to him according to his knowledge (because is not a subjective matter).


Quote:
In the same manner the majority does not have the appropriate background to recognize the Imam as the Noor and hence they are right according to their understanding of considering the Imam as a human.

The Ismailis who have a deeper understanding of Imamat see or recognize him as the Noor.


They don’t need to recognize the imam as the noor as if that’s the correct understanding of him. It’s not that they don’t have appropriate background and that’s why they don’t recognize him as the noor. There isn’t any appropriate background needed to recognize him as this but not that as if one is more correct than the other. All perceptions of him, according you, are subjective and therefore as true and as valid as any other perception. It seems that people don’t need any deep understanding of the imam to recognize him as the noor either, because, even if they did have this deep understanding, what difference would it make? Their perceptions are still subjective even with this so-called deep understanding and as good and as true as the perceptions of those who don’t have that deep understanding. The matter is subjective so a deep understanding does not mean that one person’s perception of your imam will be truer than someone else’s (who doesn’t have that deep understanding).

Quote:
I am trying here to resolve the dilemma of two perceptions being right. If one person says that the Imam is human and the other says he is Noor, how do I determine what is the truth. I am saying that I would evaluate each person knowledge, ideas and the basis of trust they have established. A Pir's statement would carry more weight for me than another persons statement.


You cannot determine the truth in favour of one (i.e. your pir) and not the other when both are subjective. They both weigh the same no matter how much knowledge, trust, etc, one has and the other doesn’t because they are subjective and only true to the individuals. So a person who believes your imam to not be the noor is just as correct as what your pir believes. All other considerations are irrelevant. If a man likes a certain dish and another does not like that same dish, who is correct? They both are. It does not matter if the man who likes the dish is the best human being and the other person the worst, they are both as correct as each other in liking/not liking the dish, and one can't be more correct than the other because the matter is subjective.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Similarly, a person who perceives the Imam of the time, as the perfect man, the Imam will be that to him/her. And I don't mean just in words, you will experience qualities of the Imam of the time that will show you he is perfect/divine. If you don't see him as that you will not experience those qualities of his. So to answer your question in short yes they both are right! To the man who views him as perfect, he is perfect with divine qualities and the one who views him just as a human he is just a human. Again, no contradiction. It is relative to the observer.


So you would agree with me that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries), correct?
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
<BR>So you would agree with me that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries), correct?


I think you are missing the point. Let's say the person who percieves him as imperfect was to start seeing him as perfect/divine, they would experience those qualities of his. But if someone were to start seeing you or me as perfect/divine they would not experience anything. And this property of being able to experience his divinity based on your faith is what makes him special. Its not about who is correct or incorrect. Its about elevating yourself to a level to see this. So yeah the person who doesn't experience anything is correct but thats because of their own limitation not because of the Imam's limitation.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think you are missing the point. Let's say the person who percieves him as imperfect was to start seeing him as perfect/divine, they would experience those qualities of his. But if someone were to start seeing you or me as perfect/divine they would not experience anything. And this property of being able to experience his divinity based on your faith is what makes him special. Its not about who is correct or incorrect. Its about elevating yourself to a level to see this. So yeah the person who doesn't experience anything is correct but thats because of their own limitation not because of the Imam's limitation.


I think it is you that is missing the point. If someone perceives your imam as imperfect then he experiences him as imperfect i.e. his imperfect qualities, etc., (something which you yourself believe) and is correct is his perception of him. How someone perceives me or you is irrelevant to the point. What difference does elevating yourself make to the truth of a person’s perceptions of the imam when all perceptions of him are subjective anyway? If one man is elevated and perceives him as perfect and another is not elevated and perceives him as imperfect, and since all perceptions of the imam are subjective, they are/must be equally correct. one person’s perception is as true as the other's, regardless of the level of their spiritual elevation because, again, it makes no difference to the truth of their perceptions (since they’re subjective) but only to the kind of perception they have (i.e. perfect or imperfect, which is besides the point). So I ask you again: would agree that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries)? Just a yes or no answer would be fine.
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sheza



Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom, not sure where you are going with this, but how can anyone say that my perception is right or wrong, my perception can't be judged by your perception of my perception.

the only thing that could be up for debate is whether my perception is based on logic or faith? and if its not based on logic, thats the end of that discussion aswell.
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sunnydays



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bionom 1

There are many phrases and concepts that we use that are abstract, poetic, and esoteric. And even these words don't always do justice in reflecting what we believe and feel.

So, you probably wouldn't understand or accurately understand these concepts if you took them on face value.

You said you respect the AKDN - here's on example of the kinds of physical/real things that manifest from our beliefs. Our beliefs are private, but our actions and contributions to the world around us as a result of our beliefs speak for us.
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
I think it is you that is missing the point. If someone perceives your imam as imperfect then he experiences him as imperfect i.e. his imperfect qualities, etc., (something which you yourself believe) and is correct is his perception of him. How someone perceives me or you is irrelevant to the point. What difference does elevating yourself make to the truth of a person’s perceptions of the imam when all perceptions of him are subjective anyway? If one man is elevated and perceives him as perfect and another is not elevated and perceives him as imperfect, and since all perceptions of the imam are subjective, they are/must be equally correct. one person’s perception is as true as the other's, regardless of the level of their spiritual elevation because, again, it makes no difference to the truth of their perceptions (since they’re subjective) but only to the kind of perception they have (i.e. perfect or imperfect, which is besides the point). So I ask you again: would agree that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries)? Just a yes or no answer would be fine.


It's funny how you give paragraphs after paragraphs of response but expect us to answer with a simple "yes" or "no". Unfortunately, this subject isn't a binary matter. It goes beyond logic\reasoning and requires detailed explanation (for someone who is new to this like yourself). Now to make the point much more clear to you (obviously you are missing it), I am again telling you just cause you experience the Imam as imperfect it's your own limitation not the Imams. of course how you and me are perceived is relevant to the point because if a person who is capable of showing perfection /divinity based on others observation of him must be superior than someone who doesn't display such attributes (like me and yourself). And coming to the matter of who is correct. It's like me asking you is the person who is seeing the electron as a particle (with mass and charge) correct or the person who is seeing the electron as a wave (displays a spectrum) correct? How does one answer that? All we know is that it is both (duality) and its wave nature is far more superior than its particle nature. And you decide what you want to see. And again I will tell you what you want to see is in your hands and what you don't see is due to your own limitation.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="abkb110"]
binom1 wrote:
Quote:
I think it is you that is missing the point. If someone perceives your imam as imperfect then he experiences him as imperfect i.e. his imperfect qualities, etc., (something which you yourself believe) and is correct is his perception of him. How someone perceives me or you is irrelevant to the point. What difference does elevating yourself make to the truth of a person’s perceptions of the imam when all perceptions of him are subjective anyway? If one man is elevated and perceives him as perfect and another is not elevated and perceives him as imperfect, and since all perceptions of the imam are subjective, they are/must be equally correct. one person’s perception is as true as the other's, regardless of the level of their spiritual elevation because, again, it makes no difference to the truth of their perceptions (since they’re subjective) but only to the kind of perception they have (i.e. perfect or imperfect, which is besides the point). So I ask you again: would agree that the person who perceives the imam as imperfect is just as correct as the person who perceives him as perfect (and the same with all other contraries)? Just a yes or no answer would be fine.


It's funny how you give paragraphs after paragraphs of response but expect us to answer with a simple "yes" or "no". Unfortunately, this subject isn't a binary matter. It goes beyond logic\reasoning and requires detailed explanation (for someone who is new to this like yourself). Now to make the point much more clear to you (obviously you are missing it), I am again telling you just cause you experience the Imam as imperfect it's your own limitation not the Imams. of course how you and me are perceived is relevant to the point because if a person who is capable of showing perfection /divinity based on others observation of him must be superior than someone who doesn't display such attributes (like me and yourself). And coming to the matter of who is correct. It's like me asking you is the person who is seeing the electron as a particle (with mass and charge) correct or the person who is seeing the electron as a wave (displays a spectrum) correct? How does one answer that? All we know is that it is both (duality) and its wave nature is far more superior than its particle nature. And you decide what you want to see. And again I will tell you what you want to see is in your hands and what you don't see is due to your own limitation.


Well put.

Binom - just because you have your eyes closed and have a blindfold over them - and keep insisting you can't see the sun at high noon - doesn't mean the sun isn't out or up, just means you can't see the sun....

Does that take anything away from the Sun? or from the others who can see the Sun?

Shams
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Binom,

You're trying to reason with a bunch of fanatics - we're not going to get what you're saying..even though it makes perfect sense and logic to you - just doesn't make sense or logic to us. We have lost our sense of reason and balance - or as they say..we've drunk the Kool-Aid. You should escape before we pull you into our whirlpool and get you confused as well.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15388

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:
[I think it’s not that most Ismailis are ignorant that they may recite salaat/namaz. Rather, I think that you are ignorant of the fact that salaat/namaz is not obligatory on Ismailis. Their dua’ is their salat/namaz as the user Kandani has said. No Ismaili, with the exception of you, is in possession of any standard text of salaat/namaz from your imam. .

I said "they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays" so where is the ignorance about the Namaz not being obligatory. In other words I have maintained that Namaz is not obligatory. The Imam has approved the text whether is is available or not. In any case it is not meant to be obligatory.
binom1 wrote:
I mean you said it yourself; despite the fact that a few Ismailis do those things, the fact still remains that those things i.e. requirements of the sharia’, are not obligatory on all Ismailis. .

Yes and I said that they are not obligatory, yet my point is that there is complementarity even though it is not obligatory. A complemetary practice need not be obligatory.
binom1 wrote:
Again here you make an unwarranted categorical statement about all Ismailis which is simply not true. Ismailis i.e. all Ismalis, don’t practice salaat/namaz, even on Fridays. Only a very few Ismailis do. But that is no reason for you to say that there’s a co-existence between Ismailis practices and the practices common to all Muslims. .

Even if a few Ismails practice it, it shows a coexistence however weak it may appear to be. If I have a choice of performing Namaz in addition to my Dua, it still shows coexistence. On the occasions of Eid, the entire congregartion recites Idd Namaz....
binom1 wrote:

My point is simply that the person’s perception of your imam as the noor is no truer than the perception of the person who sees him as not the noor since both of their perceptions are subjective. Would you agree with that? Since all perceptions of him are subjective, it does not matter what capacities one has to recognize him as the noor’ and another to recognize him as not the noor since it does not make a difference as to which one of them is correct. If a man has all the knowledge of Ismailism and sees the imam as noor, and another man has no knowledge and sees him as not the noor, his (the second man’s) perception is just as true as the first man’s. .
Yes true but relative to their own capacity, I will elaborate this below when talking about the child's perception of the light of the moon.
binom1 wrote:

The child who thinks that the moon is the source of light is wrong. It is not that he is right according to his knowledge. .
As far as the child is concerned he will never be able to understand that the sun is the source of the light because he does not have the tools to understand that. All children in that category will hold the same opinion. However when they do grow with more knowledge the view changes. Similarly there are layers of perceiving reality depending upon individual capacity. In relation to the Pir I am a child and hence I just cannot know what he knows because I have not developed to his capacity. I only obey him because of the trust.
binom1 wrote:
You’re assuming this issue i.e. the source of the light of our solar system, to be a subjective matter like the perception of your imam. But it’s not, it’s an objective matter. There’s a correct answer i.e. the sun is the source of light, and every other answer i.e. the moon is the source of light, is incorrect. So your analogy does not work. You even contradict yourself toward the end of your paragraph by saying that the person with the knowledge of the universe is “objectively correct”. If he is objectively correct, then how is the child correct in thinking what is contrary to what the man who knows astronomy thinks? The child is plainly wrong and it does matter what it is to him according to his knowledge (because is not a subjective matter).
Just as the child with no knowledge of solar system cannot know that the sun is the source of the light of the moon, similarly an ordinary person without the background knowledge of mysticism and Sufism cannot know the Imam beyond his human nature. The fact that the Imam can appear as Divine to some is an indication that there is an added dimension to his reality. Although both perceptions are right relative to the observers, the person with a deeper understanding of Imamat will perceive one correct and the other incorrect due to lack of background. The objectivity comes with knowledge, just as a person with knowledge of the solar system will know that the child is wrong and cannot have the capacity to know the truth, an Ismaili with a knowdlege of the Imam will know that the Imam is Divine and that the other person does not have the capacity to know him. Hence we are discouraged to shout aloud that the Imam is Divine because it will simply make no sense to others who do not have the background.
binom1 wrote:
It seems that people don’t need any deep understanding of the imam to recognize him as the noor either, because, even if they did have this deep understanding, what difference would it make? Their perceptions are still subjective even with this so-called deep understanding and as good and as true as the perceptions of those who don’t have that deep understanding. The matter is subjective so a deep understanding does not mean that one person’s perception of your imam will be truer than someone else’s (who doesn’t have that deep understanding).
It would make a difference because the Imam appears according to the capacity of the individual. In an esoteric tradition the deeper the knowledge and purity, the truer the perceptions. The perceptions of the Prophet would be truer than those of an ordinary person. Otherwise what is the basis of accepting the Prophet and the Quran if the exprience of Prophet is no truer than any other person? In the case of Ismailism recognition of Imam as Noor comes with knowledge and hence there are levels of recognition.
binom1 wrote:
If a man likes a certain dish and another does not like that same dish, who is correct? They both are. It does not matter if the man who likes the dish is the best human being and the other person the worst, they are both as correct as each other in liking/not liking the dish, and one can't be more correct than the other because the matter is subjective.
They are both corect according to their perception and knowledge. However if one person said that he did not like the dish because it contained pork and the other person said that he liked it because it tasted good, then wouldn't that change the evaluation?
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now to make the point much more clear to you (obviously you are missing it), I am again telling you just cause you experience the Imam as imperfect it's your own limitation not the Imams.


Again, whether or not it’s anybody’s limitation is beside the point. The point is the truth of a person’s perception (whatever it is) of your imam. Since perceptions of him are subjective, whether a person’s perception (i.e. he’s imperfect) of him is limited or not it is just as true as the persons’ (who is not limited) who perceives him to be perfect. In fact, since the matter is subjective, the person who perceives your imam as imperfect might think that anyone who perceives him as perfect is the one that’s limited (not vice versa), and he wouldn’t be wrong in that since that is what his subjective perception tells him. You think that anyone who perceives your imam to be imperfect is limited, but the people who perceive him as imperfect might think the opposite, how are you able to tell them they’re wrong when, according to you, all perceptions of him are subjective and it doesn’t matter whether a person is limited or not as, again, it does not make any difference to the truth of the matter?


Quote:
Of course how you and me are perceived is relevant to the point because if a person who is capable of showing perfection /divinity based on others observation of him must be superior than someone who doesn't display such attributes (like me and yourself).


There are two objections this.

First of all, I don’t grant you the assumption that perceptions of anybody other than your imam are of the same nature as perceptions of your imam i.e. that they’re subjective. That is not true. If someone perceives me to be perfect and someone else does not, the former is absolutely wrong and the latter is correct. Perceptions of me and you, therefore, are objective as anyone who believes the contrary of the correct answer about me (i.e. I’m not perfect) is clearly wrong. That is not the case with perceptions of your imam though (according to you). They’re subjective, which means, as I keep on repeating here, any perception of him (i.e. he’s not perfect) is as true as any other (i.e. he’s perfect) whether or not one is limited and the other is not. They are both equally correct and they must be so.

Second, there are certain individuals as well as groups out there i.e. the heretical Ahmadiyyas, who perceive their leader to be perfect and any other person besides him (including your imam) to be imperfect. Based on the observation/perceptions of his followers, he displays perfection and divinity, while others, i.e. your imam, does not. So according to your reasoning, their leader must be superior to your imam because he displays perfection/divinity, while your imam does not.


Quote:
And coming to the matter of who is correct. It's like me asking you is the person who is seeing the electron as a particle (with mass and charge) correct or the person who is seeing the electron as a wave (displays a spectrum) correct? How does one answer that?


They are both correct (even according to you). The man’s perception of the electron as a particle is as true as the other man’s perception of the electron as a wave.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:
Quote:
Now to make the point much more clear to you (obviously you are missing it), I am again telling you just cause you experience the Imam as imperfect it's your own limitation not the Imams.


Again, whether or not it’s anybody’s limitation is beside the point. The point is the truth of a person’s perception (whatever it is) of your imam. Since perceptions of him are subjective, whether a person’s perception (i.e. he’s imperfect) of him is limited or not it is just as true as the persons’ (who is not limited) who perceives him to be perfect. In fact, since the matter is subjective, the person who perceives your imam as imperfect might think that anyone who perceives him as perfect is the one that’s limited (not vice versa), and he wouldn’t be wrong in that since that is what his subjective perception tells him. You think that anyone who perceives your imam to be imperfect is limited, but the people who perceive him as imperfect might think the opposite, how are you able to tell them they’re wrong when, according to you, all perceptions of him are subjective and it doesn’t matter whether a person is limited or not as, again, it does not make any difference to the truth of the matter?


Quote:
Of course how you and me are perceived is relevant to the point because if a person who is capable of showing perfection /divinity based on others observation of him must be superior than someone who doesn't display such attributes (like me and yourself).


There are two objections this.

First of all, I don’t grant you the assumption that perceptions of anybody other than your imam are of the same nature as perceptions of your imam i.e. that they’re subjective. That is not true. If someone perceives me to be perfect and someone else does not, the former is absolutely wrong and the latter is correct. Perceptions of me and you, therefore, are objective as anyone who believes the contrary of the correct answer about me (i.e. I’m not perfect) is clearly wrong. That is not the case with perceptions of your imam though (according to you). They’re subjective, which means, as I keep on repeating here, any perception of him (i.e. he’s not perfect) is as true as any other (i.e. he’s perfect) whether or not one is limited and the other is not. They are both equally correct and they must be so.

Second, there are certain individuals as well as groups out there i.e. the heretical Ahmadiyyas, who perceive their leader to be perfect and any other person besides him (including your imam) to be imperfect. Based on the observation/perceptions of his followers, he displays perfection and divinity, while others, i.e. your imam, does not. So according to your reasoning, their leader must be superior to your imam because he displays perfection/divinity, while your imam does not.


Quote:
And coming to the matter of who is correct. It's like me asking you is the person who is seeing the electron as a particle (with mass and charge) correct or the person who is seeing the electron as a wave (displays a spectrum) correct? How does one answer that?


They are both correct (even according to you). The man’s perception of the electron as a particle is as true as the other man’s perception of the electron as a wave.


Binom..

Define Perfection...and find a definition that at one go - satisfies everyone's definition.

Your view of perfection is different then my view or anyone else's view.
On that note..Define what the IMAM should be...once again..your view and our view will vary.

Look..here's the bottom line..I (don't know about the others) have chosen to give Ba'yah and follow the Imam - Shah Karim Al Husayni - now whether he leads me to salvation or to rot in hell - i don't really care...and I don't think the others will either. once again..you're dealing with a bunch of heretics and you'll not get any converts to your brand of sunnism here.

Shams
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I said "they may recite Namaz albeit on Fridays" so where is the ignorance about the Namaz not being obligatory. In other words I have maintained that Namaz is not obligatory. The Imam has approved the text whether is is available or not. In any case it is not meant to be obligatory.


It’s not obligatory on Ismailis to recite the salaat/namaz even on Fridays. They “may” recite it (on Fridays)? According to who? You? No. Your imam? No. Therefore, my statement that it’s not obligatory on them was without any condition(s), which means it’s not obligatory on them whatsoever.

Quote:
Yes and I said that they are not obligatory, yet my point is that there is complementarity even though it is not obligatory. A complemetary practice need not be obligatory.


I’m glad you admit it. And a compelemtary practice need be obligatory. That’s what makes it complementary after all.

Quote:
Even if a few Ismails practice it, it shows a coexistence however weak it may appear to be.


No it does not because by far the majority of Ismailis don’t practice it. As I said in my last post to you, I’m more justified in what I say (i.e. that there isn’t any co-existence between their practices) than you are because (1) the majority of Ismailis don’t practice the sharia’ common to all Muslims, but also (2) because the majority of Ismailis don’t believe (because of what their imam says) the sharia’ common to all Muslims to be obligatory on them.

Quote:
If I have a choice of performing Namaz in addition to my Dua, it still shows coexistence. On the occasions of Eid, the entire congregartion recites Idd Namaz....


What is true for you as an individual is not true for Ismailis as a whole. If (only) you (or a few others) perform the salaat/namaz, that does not prove that there therefore is a co-existence between Ismaili practices and the practices common to all Muslims. Rather, it just means that there’s a co-existence between what you practice as an individual individually and what Muslims generally practice. Again, the majority of Ismailis neither practice the salaat/namaz nor think it’s obligatory on them to practice it, so my claim is much stronger than yours is for those reasons.

Quote:
As far as the child is concerned he will never be able to understand that the sun is the source of the light because he does not have the tools to understand that. All children in that category will hold the same opinion. However when they do grow with more knowledge the view changes. Similarly there are layers of perceiving reality depending upon individual capacity. In relation to the Pir I am a child and hence I just cannot know what he knows because I have not developed to his capacity. I only obey him because of the trust.


Kmaherali, like I said, you’re assuming this issue i.e. the source of the light of our solar system, to be a subjective matter like the perception of your imam. But it’s not, it’s an objective matter. Your analogy, for that reason, fails right from the start.

Quote:
Just as the child with no knowledge of solar system cannot know that the sun is the source of the light of the moon,


Your analogy fails because of your assumption (which I’ve mentioned). The child does not know the correct answer (i.e. which already means the matter is objective) because he does have the knowledge to know the correct answer. In the case of perceiving/knowing your imam, there isn’t any one correct answer (like it is with the source of the light of our solar system) since, as you’ve said, the matter is subjective – which means any answer is as true as any other.

Quote:
similarly an ordinary person without the background knowledge of mysticism and Sufism cannot know the Imam beyond his human nature.


Please don’t say “background knowledge of Tasawwuf/mysticism" (is needed to know your imam beyond his human nature) as the greatest masters of Tasawwuf did not accept your imam, recognize him as being perfect/divine, etc., and generally had no need of him. Save yourself from getting into this question by just sticking to saying “background knowledge of Ismailism” is needed in order recognize your imam as perfect, etc.

Quote:
The fact that the Imam can appear as Divine to some is an indication that there is an added dimension to his reality.


The fact that he can appear as not divine to others means the same thing.

Quote:
Although both perceptions are right relative to the observers, the person with a deeper understanding of Imamat will perceive one correct and the other incorrect due to lack of background.


Do you not see how you contradicted yourself in this sentence? First you state that “both perceptions are right (relative to the observers)”, then you go on to say that the one (perception) with the deep understanding of imamat is the correct one and the other incorrect. If they both are right relative to themselves, then both of their perceptions are right/correct relative to themselves. One is not more correct than the other.


Quote:
The objectivity comes with knowledge, just as a person with knowledge of the solar system will know that the child is wrong and cannot have the capacity to know the truth, an Ismaili with a knowdlege of the Imam will know that the Imam is Divine and that the other person does not have the capacity to know him.


Objectivity? You are contradicting yourself (again) since now your whole sentence implies that there is an objective perception (i.e. he’s divine) of your imam (which you denied by saying all perceptions of him are subjective). There can’t be any objective knowledge/perception of your imam since all perceptions of him (according to you) are subjective. But perhaps you’re saying that there are both objective and subjective perceptions of your imam? If so, I would love to hear how that is possible! But if not, then, like I’ve told you above, your analogy of the source of the light of our solar system fails because that matter is an objective matter whereas the perception/knowledge of your imam is a subjective one (according to you).

Quote:
It would make a difference because the Imam appears according to the capacity of the individual. In an esoteric tradition the deeper the knowledge and purity, the truer the perceptions.


When the truth of a matter is subjective, then any answer is as true as its contrary. In other words, there can’t be any perceptions (of your imam) that are “truer” than any others, since they’re all subjective.

Quote:
The perceptions of the Prophet would be truer than those of an ordinary person. Otherwise what is the basis of accepting the Prophet and the Quran if the exprience of Prophet is no truer than any other person?


You’re assuming the perception of the Prophet – alayhi salaatu wa salaam, (or the Qur’an) to be of the same nature as the perception of your imam (i.e. subjective). But I don’t grant you that. The perception of the Prophet (according to me and all other Muslims) is an objective matter i.e. if someone perceives him as not a prophet or imperfect, that person is completely wrong.

Quote:
They are both corect according to their perception and knowledge. However if one person said that he did not like the dish because it contained pork and the other person said that he liked it because it tasted good, then wouldn't that change the evaluation?


No it wouldn’t. The person who said he didn’t like it because in contained pork is as correct as the person who liked it because it tasted good. One is not more ‘correct’ than the other in thinking (or perceiving) what he thought/perceived about the dish.
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
Second, there are certain individuals as well as groups out there i.e. the heretical Ahmadiyyas, who perceive their leader to be perfect and any other person besides him (including your imam) to be imperfect. Based on the observation/perceptions of his followers, he displays perfection and divinity, while others, i.e. your imam, does not. So according to your reasoning, their leader must be superior to your imam because he displays perfection/divinity, while your imam does not.


I am not concerned about what others view my Imam as. And if they believe their leader is perfect and divine that is their belief. Ismailism is a religion which supports pluralism and allows me to respect them for what they believe. I don’t have a need to get insecure because they feel their leader is perfect/divine and they feel our Imam isn’t. But since you insist to compare and contrast between the two here are couples of quick observations: 1) Our Imamat was appointed directly by the Prophet (PBUH) and has continued for 1400 years (test of time) without any disruption. 2) The Imam is a directly descendant of the Prophet (PBUH) and the great grandson of Hazrat Ali. 3) The Imamat manages numerous organizations (Focus, AKDN, AKF etc etc) which not only supports ismailis but anyone in need irrespective of their religion or culture (pluralism).

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
They are both correct (even according to you). The man’s perception of the electron as a particle is as true as the other man’s perception of the electron as a wave.


And this is exactly what I am telling you, they are both correct. Hence your argument of objectivity is no longer valid. Because you said

[quote="binom1"]
Quote:
If someone perceives me to be perfect and someone else does not, the former is absolutely wrong and the latter is correct. Perceptions of me and you, therefore, are objective as anyone who believes the contrary of the correct answer about me (i.e. I’m not perfect) is clearly wrong.


Now to go to one crowd who see’s it as a wave and pushing them against the wall and telling them “Can you pick if what you see is right or what the other crowd see’s is right?” But as you just said they both are right. And its up to you what you want to see. And if you see it as a wave you will experience those great perfect/divine qualities and if you see it as a particle you will experience those qualities as well.
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not concerned about what others view my Imam as. And if they believe their leader is perfect and divine that is their belief. Ismailism is a religion which supports pluralism and allows me to respect them for what they believe. I don’t have a need to get insecure because they feel their leader is perfect/divine and they feel our Imam isn’t. But since you insist to compare and contrast between the two here are couples of quick observations: 1) Our Imamat was appointed directly by the Prophet (PBUH) and has continued for 1400 years (test of time) without any disruption. 2) The Imam is a directly descendant of the Prophet (PBUH) and the great grandson of Hazrat Ali. 3) The Imamat manages numerous organizations (Focus, AKDN, AKF etc etc) which not only supports ismailis but anyone in need irrespective of their religion or culture (pluralism).


Abkb110, you missed the point of what I said. For now, nevermind that though…

Quote:
And this is exactly what I am telling you, they are both correct. Hence your argument of objectivity is no longer valid. Because you said


You’ve left me a bit confused. My point was simply that since all perceptions of your imam are subjective (according to you), then all perceptions of him are as true as any other.

Quote:
Now to go to one crowd who see’s it as a wave and pushing them against the wall and telling them “Can you pick if what you see is right or what the other crowd see’s is right?” But as you just said they both are right. And its up to you what you want to see. And if you see it as a wave you will experience those great perfect/divine qualities and if you see it as a particle you will experience those qualities as well.


I never denied that. What you’ve mentioned just reinforces my point though, videlicet, one person’s perception of your imam as imperfect (i.e. man seeing the electron as particle) is just as true as another person's perception of your imam as perfect (i.e. man seeing the electron as wave).
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15388

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:
I’m glad you admit it. And a compelemtary practice need be obligatory. That’s what makes it complementary after all.
A complementary practice is something that is extra. It need not be obligatory. For example in our Tariqah, Baitul Khayal complements our Dua but it is not obligatory.
binom1 wrote:
What is true for you as an individual is not true for Ismailis as a whole. If (only) you (or a few others) perform the salaat/namaz, that does not prove that there therefore is a co-existence between Ismaili practices and the practices common to all Muslims. Rather, it just means that there’s a co-existence between what you practice as an individual individually and what Muslims generally practice.

In Ismailism there is a lot choice. Not all Tariqah practices are practiced by all yet there is co-existence between Dua and Baitul Khayal and there is coexistence between Dua and Namaz common to all Muslims.
binom1 wrote:
Kmaherali, like I said, you’re assuming this issue i.e. the source of the light of our solar system, to be a subjective matter like the perception of your imam. But it’s not, it’s an objective matter. Your analogy, for that reason, fails right from the start.
It is subjective relative to the knowledge of the individual. If a person does not have knowledge of the solar system, there is no way he can comprehend that the moon reflects the light of the sun.
binom1 wrote:
Save yourself from getting into this question by just sticking to saying “background knowledge of Ismailism” is needed in order recognize your imam as perfect, etc.
OK I will save myself for now!
binom1 wrote:
You’re assuming the perception of the Prophet – alayhi salaatu wa salaam, (or the Qur’an) to be of the same nature as the perception of your imam (i.e. subjective). But I don’t grant you that. The perception of the Prophet (according to me and all other Muslims) is an objective matter i.e. if someone perceives him as not a prophet or imperfect, that person is completely wrong.
To Ismailis the status of the Imam is at least equal to that of the Prophet. Hence whatever is true about the Prophet is as true about the Imam.
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:
Second, there are certain individuals as well as groups out there i.e. the heretical Ahmadiyyas, who perceive their leader to be perfect and any other person besides him (including your imam) to be imperfect. Based on the observation/perceptions of his followers, he displays perfection and divinity, while others, i.e. your imam, does not. So according to your reasoning, their leader must be superior to your imam because he displays perfection/divinity, while your imam does not.


binom1 wrote:
]Abkb110, you missed the point of what I said. For now, nevermind that though…


I understood your point. And I see where you are going with it. Why do you look at the world from a binary standpoint that if one is true that means the other must be false. Why can't all religions lead to the ONE just through different paths? Anyways, what you are saying is circular. You are looking at it from their point of view. If you look at it from our point of view then our Imam is not inferior since we see him as perfect/divine. So according to ME and MY reasoning (from an ismaili standpoint) their leader is not superior to my Imam as I see my Imam as perfect/divine and not theirs. Furthermore, just cause I see my Imam as perfect/divine doesn't mean I have a view/opinion on their leader (my third sentence). And if they view their Leader as perfect/divine that doesn't say anything about my Imam. Do you follow?
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GMR



Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read with very much interest the stuff of binom1, in which he only stresses on following Sharia / salat etc. etc. and ignores the Holy mandatory word of Allah (SWT) Amal. Let me remind him that Allah (SWT) has made two things mandatory in the Holy Quran (belief-Iman) and (deeds-Amal). If something there is fraction between Iman-Amal, no one can claim that he/she is on right path and I understand that reason behind the fall and backwardness of ummah is due to ignorance of good deeds. We can't compare present era with that with our Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). It's clear that present era is science and technology and it was unavailable at that time. So unless the whole ummah is not prepared to change it's deteriorating plight, it can't cope with the challenges of the present era. Don't shut your eyes what is going on in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and rest of the muslim world. Is it your destiny to kill each other, even fellow muslims and live in segregation, and in extreme poverty?
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A complementary practice is something that is extra. It need not be obligatory.


In order for two distinct traditions to have complementary practices they both have to have those certain practices in common i.e. obligatory on both traditions.

Quote:
In Ismailism there is a lot choice. Not all Tariqah practices are practiced by all yet there is co-existence between Dua and Baitul Khayal and there is coexistence between Dua and Namaz common to all Muslims.


Kmaherali, do you not see that, in referring to the co-existence between the practices of your own tradition to prove that there is a co-existence between them and the ones common to all Muslims, you’re reasoning fallaciously? You’re basically saying: since there’s a co-existence between dua’ and baitul khayal, so (that must mean) there’s also a co-existence between dua’ and salaat/namaz (common to all Muslims). In other words, what is true for you (i.e. Ismailism) is also true for all other Muslims (i.e. Sunnis/Shia’s). It is a form of what you had said earlier in your second last post (i.e. what is true for you is true for all Ismailis as a whole). But that is utter nonsense! And I hope I don’t need to show you why as it is very clear to see.

Quote:
It is subjective relative to the knowledge of the individual.


Kmaherali, it cannot be subjective relative to the knowledge of the individual for the simple reason that it is an objective matter. Do you understand what it means for something to be subjective or objective?

Quote:
If a person does not have knowledge of the solar system, there is no way he can comprehend that the moon reflects the light of the sun.


I know. I never denied that. The reason why the child does not know is because he is ignorant (of the source of the light of our solar system), which means he does not know the correct answer (i.e. which means there’s an objective (correct) answer to the question).

Quote:
Hence whatever is true about the Prophet is as true about the Imam.


Let me grant that to you for now (even though I don’t really) and see where it leads us. Now, if whatever is true of the Prophet – alayhi salatu wa salaam, is also as true of your imam, then if it is true (of the Prophet) that the perception of him is an objective matter, and if you agree with that (I’m assuming you do since you made the statement), then that must mean that the perception of your imam is also (contrary to you) an objective matter. Would you not agree?
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binom1



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyways, what you are saying is circular. You are looking at it from their point of view. If you look at it from our point of view then our Imam is not inferior since we see him as perfect/divine. So according to ME and MY reasoning (from an ismaili standpoint) their leader is not superior to my Imam as I see my Imam as perfect/divine and not theirs. Furthermore, just cause I see my Imam as perfect/divine doesn't mean I have a view/opinion on their leader (my third sentence). And if they view their Leader as perfect/divine that doesn't say anything about my Imam. Do you follow?


I do follow. And thank you as that was exactly the point of my second objection.

Now, please consider my first point i.e. since all perceptions of your imam are subjective (according to you), then all perceptions of him are as true as any other.

You also said:

Quote:
Now to go to one crowd who see’s it as a wave and pushing them against the wall and telling them “Can you pick if what you see is right or what the other crowd see’s is right?” But as you just said they both are right. And its up to you what you want to see. And if you see it as a wave you will experience those great perfect/divine qualities and if you see it as a particle you will experience those qualities as well.



And I replied: I never denied that. What you’ve mentioned just reinforces my point though, videlicet, one person’s perception of your imam as imperfect (i.e. man seeing the electron as particle) is just as true as another person's perception of your imam as perfect (i.e. man seeing the electron as wave). Would you agree?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your question in brief...

First of all from historical perspective the word "namaz" is not islamic in origin. It was used by fireworshippers of Persia for their prayers. Muslim converts adopted this word for Salat..the Arabic word which means Prayer/Dua. Ismailis recite their Salat to which they call Dua 3 times a day as per Holy Quran in which three times prayer is mentioned. Dua is Saalat and is obligatory on Ismailis. Now if any ismaili willingly say namaz (which itself is salat) then thats also ok but it is not compulsory. KMaherali has also repeated this in number of posts that its not compulsory and infact if the one is reciting dua (which it self is salat) then obviously there is no need of namaz. However, Ismailis offer namaz in Eid in the same way as other Muslims offer and this creates spirit of brotherhood among all Muslims.
Namaz and Dua co-existed in history in the way for e.g Indian Muslims for centuries recite Dua in Indian language and at the same time Ismailis living at other places offer Namaz...but in that Namaz also they say the names of Imam. So though the method and words were different..the concept was same.

You may read the article below about Namaz and Dua and hopefully you will get the answers of your questions regarding dua and namaz.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/19203

And we can certainly not start beliveing in any xyz's theory about Imam. We believe in authorised Pirs and we do believe them.
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scorpion2009



Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>first i would like to answer the question if he is muslim or not</P><P>jeusus relegion is islam</P><P>the relegion of god is islam</P><P>this not my talk its in quran</P><P>we follow him because he is the way to reach the way that god want us to follow</P><P>we follow him because he is from the tree which is family tree</P><P>he is from Denomination of our father abraham in arabic &#1575;&#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1607;&#1610;&#1605; </P><P>and we still have a lot to talk</P><P></P>
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abkb110



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom1 wrote:

Quote:
Now to go to one crowd who see’s it as a wave and pushing them against the wall and telling them “Can you pick if what you see is right or what the other crowd see’s is right?” But as you just said they both are right. And its up to you what you want to see. And if you see it as a wave you will experience those great perfect/divine qualities and if you see it as a particle you will experience those qualities as well.



And I replied: I never denied that. What you’ve mentioned just reinforces my point though, videlicet, one person’s perception of your imam as imperfect (i.e. man seeing the electron as particle) is just as true as another person's perception of your imam as perfect (i.e. man seeing the electron as wave). Would you agree?


Arguing with you is like banging my head on a wall. Once again you are going in circles. Because I already told you that 1) The answer to your question is not a simple yes/no and 2) To be able to see the electron beyond a particle (as a wave) and to experience those qualities (not just as a perception but as a reality as you see the wave spectrum on a wall) must mean there is a added dimension to an electron. And similarly an added dimension to the Imam’s reality (as kmaherali mentioned in earlier post).
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znanwalla



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject: Is Imam a muslim? Reply with quote

Lets first define who is a muslim ? and whether a muslim is also part of Muhamad SAW's Ummat?

How many of us are able to distinguish between the odors of
noon and midnight, or of winter and summer, or of a windy
spell and a still one?...[b]

Is the quran the Critrion and a final Message for all mankind? I mean the quran of Allah as revealed to Muhamad SAW and as preserved by his Ahl al Bayt.....so can anyone say he, she or they have a monopoly of any sort?


“[b]If only those who have oppressed the family of the Prophet, denying them their rights, could see the deluge of death.” (Amir-Moezzi Divine Guide )
[/b]
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znanwalla



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

binom says..."...Kmaherali, do you not see that, in referring to the co-existence between the practices of your own tradition to prove that there is a co-existence between them and the o&shy;nes common to all Muslims.."<BR><BR>Can you outline what is so common about you folks? first of all even your salat is not the same though you make claims that you follow the sunnah ! There are 73 sects in islam...do they all sleep, eat, clothe and work in the same manner? do you all use the same comb? why not? islam is full of diversity? why do you question o&shy;nly the ismailis? what is your agenda and motive?<BR><BR>What did the prophet say? did he not say that o&shy;nly a small jamat from his umma will stay o&shy;n the path of Sirat? do you know what is Sirat?<BR><BR>okay tell me which is the Sura of the quran which Allah SWT has ordained that muslims recite as a Du&#39;a? and which sura opens the doors to the Quran?<BR><BR>You are trying to talk as if the majority automatically means right path....not at all....it may also mean that all the fools are o&shy;n o&shy;ne side...get the drift?
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