www.ismaili.net

ftc · Post by **ftc** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:02 pm

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE ISMAILI LEADERS INTERNATIONAL
FORUM, THE COUNCIL FOR CANADA AND THE TARIOAH AND
RELIGIOUS EDUCATION BOARD FOR CANADA TO BE READ IN ALL
JAMATKHANAS

The Jamat may be aware that a volume under the name of "Kalam e Imam e Zaman", purporting to contain the texts of Farmans and Talikas of our beloved Mawlana Hazar Imam, is presently being advertised for sale by way of the internet and other media.

The LIF and the National Institutions take this opportunity to recall that Mawlana Hazar Imam has entrusted the responsibility for printing and circulating Farman texts and other Tariqah and Jamat related materials, to relevant Jamati institutions. Such material is only printed and circulated once formally approved by Mawlana Hazar Imam. The unauthorised publication, currently being advertised and sold privately, has not been produced by the Jamati institutions, and its contents have not undergone the process of review and authorisation that Mawlana Hazar Imam has established.

It is a matter of deep concern that some members of the Jamat have taken it upon themselves to publish and sell these private, protected and privileged texts of Mawlana Hazar Imam's Farmans made to his Murids and institutions. This practice constitutes a breach of the Ismaili Constitution, as well as of copyright laws, and appropriate steps are being taken to ensure that the unauthorized circulation of copies of this unauthorised publication ceases.

The Jamati institutions urge that the Jamat takes all possible measures to discourage those who seek to circulate such material privately, without approval and authorisation and in direct contravention of the process approved by Mawlana Hazar Imam.

The Jamat will be pleased to be informed that Mawlana Hazar Imam has already approved that the Jamati institutions should formally publish a volume containing the approved texts of his Farmans, including those made for the Golden Jubilee. This will be made available to the Jamat in the near future.

I WOULD LIKE TO BRING TO THE JAMAT'S ATTENTION THAT NO SECTION OR ARTICLE OF THE HOLY CONSTITUTION HAS BEEN MENTIONED AS THERE IS NO BASIS FOR THEIR CLAIMS WHATSOEVER.

IF THE JAMATI INSTITUTIONS WANTED TO PUBLISH A FARMAN BOOK, THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SO IN THE RECENT PAST. WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG FOR THESE " AUTHORIZED TEXTS" TO BE PUBLISHED?????

THEY HAVE BEEN READ IN JAMATKHANA, YET THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RELEASED FOR THE JAMATS.

FARMANS LEAD MURIDS TO LIVE A LIFE OF ETHICAL CONDUCT. HOW MANY OF US LIE, SMOKE, DRINK, DISOBEY FARMANS EVERYDAY? SHOULD THERE NOT BE ANNOUNCEMENTS IN REGARDS TO THESE ACTS THAT ARE IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO THE IMAM'S WISHES.

OUR LEADERS SPEND ALL THEIR ENERGIES PREVENTING THE JAMAT FROM READING FIRMANS.

THEREFORE, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF THE JAMAT IMPROVING ITS SPIRITUAL AND WORLDY LIVES.

BRAVO LEADERS !!!!

arifsali2000 · Post by **arifsali2000** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:59 pm

Here is the relevant clause from the constitution which IMHO was referenced by the council:

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.html

(c) without the permission in writing of the National Council obtained through
the Regional Council within whose jurisdiction he resides, prints, publishes, or
circulates any material or makes any statement or convenes a meeting or assembly
purporting to be on behalf of or in the name of or relating to Mawlana Hazar
Imam, the Ismaili Tariqah, the jamat, any Council or any other Ismaili
institution

Post by **Admin** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:49 pm

"on behalf of or in the name of or relating to Mawlana Hazar
Imam, the Ismaili Tariqah, the jamat, any Council or any other Ismaili
institution"

Nope that is not the clause.

This can not be the article, since the announcement says it is from individual source, they know it is has not pretended being on behalf of any institution. The article quoted is for the purpose to stop people circulating anti ismaili pamphlets etc... unless you consider Farmans to be anti-Ismaili.

If you interpret this article the way you do, you can not even say Ya Ali Madad or Ya Shah Karim, you will be subjected to disciplinary measure if someone hears you - article 14.1

Search again

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:20 pm

Admin wrote: Nope that is not the clause.

This can not be the article, since the announcement says it is from individual source, they know it is has not pretended being on behalf of any institution. The article quoted is for the purpose to stop people circulating anti ismaili pamphlets etc... unless you consider Farmans to be anti-Ismaili.

Here is the full article:

Article Fourteen DISCIPLINARY ACTION

14.1 Any Ismaili shall be liable to disciplinary action who:

(c) without the permission in writing of the National Council obtained through the Regional Council within whose jurisdiction he resides, prints, publishes, or circulates any material or makes any statement or convenes a meeting or assembly purporting to be on behalf of or in the name of or relating to Mawlana Hazar Imam, the Ismaili Tariqah, the jamat, any Council or any other Ismaili institution;

(e) disregards any order made by a Council in accordance with this Constitution or any Rules and Regulations....

(f) commits a breach of this Constitution or any Rules and Regulations or aids or abets any person to contravene any provision of this Constitution or any Rules and Regulations.

16.3 Unless permitted in writing by Mawlana Hazar Imam, no person shall use the Name, Personal Standard of Mawlana Hazar Imam, or the Imamat Crest for any purpose whatsoever.

4.2 The Leaders' International Forum shall be directly under the authority of Mawlana Hazar Imam.

4.3 The Leaders' International Forum shall meet from time to time to exercise deliberative and consultative functions and submit its views to Mawlana Hazar Imam in respect of any matters, activities, interests or questions affecting the jamat and specifically referred to it by Mawlana Hazar Imam. The submissions of the Leaders' International Forum shall be implemented only if specifically approved by Mawlana Hazar Imam.

Article Eight TARIQAH AND RELIGIOUS EDUCATION BOARDS

8.1 There shall be a Tariqah and Religious Education Board for each of the territories specified in Part I of the Fourth Schedule to be known as "The Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah and Religious Education Board" for the territory for which it is formed for the provision of religious education at all levels of the jamat, for the training of religion teachers and waezeen, for research and publication, and for the performance of such functions in relation to the Ismaili Tariqah as Mawlana Hazar Imam may deem necessary.

8.4 Each Tariqah Religious Education Board shall, under the direction and guidance Mawlana Hazar Imam:

(d) undertake publication of book and materials on relevant aspects of Islam and the Ismaili Tariqah;

Admin wrote:If you interpret this article the way you do, you can not even say Ya Ali Madad or Ya Shah Karim, you will be subjected to disciplinary measure if someone hears you - article 14.1

Search again
Saying Ya ali Madad or Ya Shah Karim and getting reprimanded for it is irrelevant to this topic. We are talking about publication which is without the guidance of the Imam. People who undertook the work of publishing the book may not have have done it in good faith but it lacks authority and guidance of the Imam.

Can I start acting like an Admin on this website? Can I run it the way I want to run it? If not, why not?

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:35 pm

please read :

"People who undertook the work of publishing the book may not have have done it in good faith...."

as

"People who undertook the work of publishing the book may have done it in good faith....."

samirnoorali · Post by **samirnoorali** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:26 pm

Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zaman

I would have to agree with the Admin, in that the quotes in the constitution are to defer negative propaganda or the circulation of material which goes against the institutions or Imamat. You have to realize the history behind this problem. For many years there has been a difficulty in obtaining Farmans of the Imam. Access is the most important element in this struggle, in that people don’t have access to the material.

The individuals who brought out Kalame Imam e Zaman were of a special case. I say special because they were people of faith, people who believe to this day that Ali is Allah, and that they are trying to impart knowledge which is not being circulated. In their hands at least we get the material. As the saying goes: better something than nothing.

But where matters can really break down is when individuals take material, twist it, and then circulate it to serve their own ideologies. In this situation this is not the case. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that the individuals who released the green, blue, red, and gold books are in any way trying to change the text to suit their personal agenda.

There are individuals who have changed farmans, like the farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah when he refers to Ali Allah. There are individuals who constantly change the Ginans, such as Ashaji where they change “Hari anant” to “Ali anant.” That is a crime. Perhaps we should focus on the bad people not the good people. Instead of discouraging these good people who are doing it at their own expense we should condemn the people who are constantly changing the ginans. The first fingers to be pointed are at the councils because they are the ones changing the ginans and printing it. They are the ones printing extracts and then printing it, never the full version.

So, the people who have released these books are innocent at heart. They are working tirelessly to this day with one goal in mind and that is to serve. Their intention was not to twist the farmans, their intention was to give it to the hands of those who thirst for knowledge. How many years have gone by since these four books were released? Many years. And now the councils are saying that they will consider releasing a volume in the “future.” Why the future, why only one volume. It takes the entire might of the council 53 years to suggest releasing a book, and that is in itself a suggestion? It took these individuals very little time to release four books, which may I add are excellent in quality.

The individuals who are releasing this book are good people. Unfortunately in this world there are not many like them. If you wish to trust them then I would recommend it. If you don’t then that is your choice. I wouldn’t recommend any other people that easily, but these are people with faith, with the concept of Imam as God, from such people there can only come good.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:55 pm

The first fingers to be pointed are at the councils because they are the ones changing the ginans and printing it. They are the ones printing extracts and then printing it, never the full version.

and who appoints them ??

Dont that person know that he/she will do this in future ??

Dont he know that he/she will give his/her own family members chance to serve all big posts available @ committe/local & regional boards ???

Council is the biggest pain in anybodies butt, be it for those who are trying to convert to those who are trying to get married ........a person who had doubts to a couple who wanna get a divorce.......a person who needs financial support to a person who works under them

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:07 am

"...and who appoints them ?? Dont that person know that he/she will do this in future ??..."

Stop talking with innuendo ! what is the point you are trying to make here?
did Allah SWT not know that men will kill HIS Prophets? and call them Liars? maybe HE too did not know that humankind was a pain and a disgrace and he kept on showing patience and sending Prophets and Messengers !...is that what you are also saying or implying ?....man has been given and Intellect and freedom to choose between right and wrong ! be they leaders or ordinary folks....as leaders if they fail then the Imam is is abundantly clear as to what the value is of such people...the Imam does not police anyone nor is he a mullah spitting venom from the podium....."And do not betray your trusts whilst ye know".....

arifsali2000 · Post by **arifsali2000** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:56 pm

Admin wrote:The article quoted is for the purpose to stop people circulating anti ismaili pamphlets etc... unless you consider Farmans to be anti-Ismaili.

Admin, you are correct. You are probably treating this clause based on assumptions that it was created mostly to safeguard against people like Akbarali Mehrally. No argument, there must certainly be that intention. However, the constitution is meant to be binding to all and as noted below by someone else, it specifically calls "Ismaili".

Regardless, there is a valid argument that farmans are not anti-Ismaili material. There is also a valid argument against copyright material. How could religious polemical lectures, scriptures, sayings of Prophets, Imams fall under copyright violation. The whole religious dogma and proselytizing would cease to exist (the proselytizing within the same tariqa as well). No contest here either.

However, my concern is based on the notion of "permission", "authority" and "consent". The KIZ book is advertised as Kalam-e Imam-e Zaman. The sayings of Present Imam. The council under the authority of Imam can simply imply permission, authority and consent, but an anonymous publication cannot. This book will regardless be helpful and it would have been much better if the advertisement of it had been kept under the wraps (the word to mouth in physical settings). The noise it has created (with the JK announcement no less) is contrary to it's potential intention and usefulness.

Just my personal take.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:58 pm

I think the first and only question is as follow "Has The Imam authorized this book to be published?" Does He have the prerogative to decide who He will allow or inspire to publish? Or is it the LIF that has that prerogative?

Do the people who comment on this matter know the answer? Do they care? Did they read the book first before commenting? Do they know what the Imam's views are on Farman dissemination? Maybe they would have if they had read the book.

LIF can say these nasty things for whatever reason and some people connected to LIF there can even hijack the name LIF for their personal agenda, but ultimately the only thing that is important to a Murid is what the Imam says and what he wants.

Why not leave to Him His prerogative to decide about His book?

What is that announcement made by LIF and Councils and Institutions all together or purporting to be on behalf of all the Institutions when Mowlana Hazar Imam Himself has defined in the Constitution the exact role of each one of them and there is no overlap in responsibility so how can someone even write an announcement purported to be on behalf of all institutions without being in breech of our Holy Constitution himself?

Admin

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:19 pm

znanwalla said :

Stop talking with innuendo ! what is the point you are trying to make here?

the point is when we know that the so called appointed council members have free will just like all other human beings then we should also know that they use this freewill to do good or bad

good = appointing their own family members to top posts, getting all the top jobs and so on

bad = abusing/warning those who try to show their devotion PUBLICLY, for eg: the book which contains all the holy firman of MHI.

where were these so called council members since that time ???? why blame those brothers and sisters who went in depth to get the useful information for our jamat ???

reason ?

they dont want a piece of cake but the whole CAKE itself !!!

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:49 pm

Mr Virani,

If you will kindly care to go back and read in which context I raised the question, I am sure you will realize that it was primarily in response to a retort made in regards to "who is appointing them and does he not know"? and so this points towards the Imam directly and that is unacceptable to me...it is like blaming the Imam for our own actions...when the Imam has placed his trust in us then we are obligated to fulfill this trust....and if you see I did say "do not betray your trusts whilst ye know"....

"...the point is when we know that the so called appointed council members have free will just like all other human beings then we should also know that they use this freewill to do good or bad ...good = appointing their own family members to top posts, getting all the top jobs and so on ..."

I have no argument about what you say...nor am I going to plead on anyone's behalf who is at fault ? I recognize only one single authority, spiritually and materially and that is the Pir o Murshid ! if anyone abuses the local leadership or points their mistakes, I may at best ask people to be forgiving and be generous in the spirit of brotherhood....but I do not act as a lackey for anyone other than me being a slave of the Imam ! If anyone abuses the Prophet, I will react harshly also....

Dr Babul writes...

" Throughout their history, the Ismailis have been led by a living Imam, tracing the line of Imamat in hereditary succession from Ali to His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan, who is the 49th Imam in direct lineal descent from Prophet Muhammad through Ali and Fatima.�

The Ismailis comprehend Islam through the guidance of the Imam of the time, who is the inheritor of the Prophet's authority, and the trustee of his legacy.�

The principal function of the Imam is to enable the believers to go beyond the apparent or outward form of the Revelation in search of its spirituality and wisdom.�

According to the Ismailis, Islam � or submission � in its pristine sense refers to the inner struggle of an individual to engage fully in the journey of this earthly life and yet, with the guidance of the Alid Imam, to rise above its trappings in search of the Divine.

The succession of the line of prophecy by that of the Imamat ensures this balance between the exoteric aspect of the faith and its esoteric, spiritual essence. Neither the exoteric nor the esoteric obliterates the other.

While the Imam is the path to a believer's inward, spiritual elevation, he is also the authority who makes the outward form of the religion relevant according to the needs of time.� The inner, spiritual life in harmony with the exoteric, is a dimension of the faith that finds acceptance among many groups within Islam..."

Now which means we do not follow scholars or waezins etc etc...just one single authority and so to this extent his Holy Firmans are essential guidance and must reach the Murids in a timely manner and Imam SMS has said that nobody should obstruct his Jamat from listening to his farameen..."

As long as (a) the Imam has not issued a personal directive or ruling in regards to the ongoing saga...(b) as long as the firmans published by any third parties are qualitative and do not mis represent the Imam, I personally and I am only speaking on my own behalf, would not bother to offer any opposition as such.....I do not think that the intent of those who published the book is dubious or lacks integrity....if they have "stolen" someone's prerogative, as long as it is not that of the Imam, I do not care personally and please I can only speak on my own behalf....and no offence is meant to anyone....

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:55 am

samirnoorali wrote:Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zaman

There are individuals who have changed farmans, like the farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah when he refers to Ali Allah. There are individuals who constantly change the Ginans, such as Ashaji where they change “Hari anant” to “Ali anant.” That is a crime. Perhaps we should focus on the bad people not the good people. Instead of discouraging these good people who are doing it at their own expense we should condemn the people who are constantly changing the ginans. The first fingers to be pointed are at the councils because they are the ones changing the ginans and printing it....

As far as people changing the firmans is concerned, I have not come across any such incident so I would not comment on that. It is true however there have been changes made in the ginans where the name “hari” has been changed to “Ali” and any other hindu influences were removed or replaced from some other ginans. According to my information and research and talking to people with knowledge of this it was authorized by the Imam. Imam SMS as far back as 1899 had started to discourage the use of hindu influences in the ginan literature. In early 1950s the Imam gave clear guidance to the leaders to stop the use of a particular ginan and change "Hari" to "Ali". So this was not done by some jamati leaders on their own. The Imam gave them permission to do so.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:32 pm

pardesi wrote:
samirnoorali wrote:Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zaman

There are individuals who have changed farmans, like the farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah when he refers to Ali Allah. There are individuals who constantly change the Ginans, such as Ashaji where they change “Hari anant” to “Ali anant.” That is a crime. Perhaps we should focus on the bad people not the good people. Instead of discouraging these good people who are doing it at their own expense we should condemn the people who are constantly changing the ginans. The first fingers to be pointed are at the councils because they are the ones changing the ginans and printing it....
As far as people changing the firmans is concerned, I have not come across any such incident so I would not comment on that. It is true however there have been changes made in the ginans where the name “hari” has been changed to “Ali” and any other hindu influences were removed or replaced from some other ginans. According to my information and research and talking to people with knowledge of this it was authorized by the Imam. Imam SMS as far back as 1899 had started to discourage the use of hindu influences in the ginan literature. In early 1950s the Imam gave clear guidance to the leaders to stop the use of a particular ginan and change "Hari" to "Ali". So this was not done by some jamati leaders on their own. The Imam gave them permission to do so.

There is a farman of the Imam where he stated we have 1900 years of history - that 1900 in the farman book is now 1400 years.
There are ginans where the world Sami or Sham - is replaced by Shah.
eg. Sami ku Avanta Jo kahe....is Shah ku avanta...
has become Shah ku in a lot of US JKs.
Shah does not equal Sami in translation - we have Darshan changed to Deedar..
Darshan diyo mora naath - has become Deedar Diyo Mora Naath.

Ansuya, Kunta, Tara, Draupadi - 4 individuals - have become..ansuya kunta, mata draupadi....

naathunda Nath ame indra imamshah - has become Naath Anath (orphan)..

want more examples?
Ruknuddin Khurshah - has become Ruknuddin Khairishah..
Khairishah - no meaning in Arabic or Farsi

Khurshah - farsi name - meaning Sun

Shams

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:03 pm

ShamsB wrote:
pardesi wrote:
samirnoorali wrote:Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zaman

There are individuals who have changed farmans, like the farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah when he refers to Ali Allah. There are individuals who constantly change the Ginans, such as Ashaji where they change “Hari anant” to “Ali anant.” That is a crime. Perhaps we should focus on the bad people not the good people. Instead of discouraging these good people who are doing it at their own expense we should condemn the people who are constantly changing the ginans. The first fingers to be pointed are at the councils because they are the ones changing the ginans and printing it....
As far as people changing the firmans is concerned, I have not come across any such incident so I would not comment on that. It is true however there have been changes made in the ginans where the name “hari” has been changed to “Ali” and any other hindu influences were removed or replaced from some other ginans. According to my information and research and talking to people with knowledge of this it was authorized by the Imam. Imam SMS as far back as 1899 had started to discourage the use of hindu influences in the ginan literature. In early 1950s the Imam gave clear guidance to the leaders to stop the use of a particular ginan and change "Hari" to "Ali". So this was not done by some jamati leaders on their own. The Imam gave them permission to do so.
There is a farman of the Imam where he stated we have 1900 years of history - that 1900 in the farman book is now 1400 years.
There are ginans where the world Sami or Sham - is replaced by Shah.
eg. Sami ku Avanta Jo kahe....is Shah ku avanta...
has become Shah ku in a lot of US JKs.
Shah does not equal Sami in translation - we have Darshan changed to Deedar..
Darshan diyo mora naath - has become Deedar Diyo Mora Naath.

Ansuya, Kunta, Tara, Draupadi - 4 individuals - have become..ansuya kunta, mata draupadi....

naathunda Nath ame indra imamshah - has become Naath Anath (orphan)..

want more examples?
Ruknuddin Khurshah - has become Ruknuddin Khairishah..
Khairishah - no meaning in Arabic or Farsi

Khurshah - farsi name - meaning Sun

Shams

Regarding Ruknuddin Khurshah:

I have heard actually both (Khairshah and Khurshah). As a matter of fact, Khairshah has a meaning in Farsi. On ther other hand, if you notice, some folks spell Mohammad, as "Mohammad" and other folks spell it as "Muhammad" but they all mean the same person. In this case which you are referring to, if some one means the same person by refferring "Khairshah" as someone else who reffers the same person by "Khurshah", then I don't think it would matter much. Since, in either case same person is reffered.

On the other hand, if a text is changed in a context to convay totally different message, then that will matter alot, as your other examples.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:18 pm

bro shams B

There is a farman of the Imam where he stated we have 1900 years of history - that 1900 in the farman book is now 1400 years.
There are ginans where the world Sami or Sham - is replaced by Shah.
eg. Sami ku Avanta Jo kahe....is Shah ku avanta...
has become Shah ku in a lot of US JKs.
Shah does not equal Sami in translation - we have Darshan changed to Deedar..
Darshan diyo mora naath - has become Deedar Diyo Mora Naath.

Ansuya, Kunta, Tara, Draupadi - 4 individuals - have become..ansuya kunta, mata draupadi....

naathunda Nath ame indra imamshah - has become Naath Anath (orphan)..

i dunno whose side you at but what you said @ above again shows 2 sides !!

1] people[jamat] changing the words/meaning
2] council is being ignorant knowing the fact that people are messing the meaning up

either way its councils fault because it is their duty to correct them[jamat]

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 pm

Here is an example of change in the farmans:

In Lisbon 1998 Hazar Imam signed a new constitution. The only difference with the 1986 version of the Constitution was that the new Constitution added a page with the name of the Apex Institutions of the Imamate, institutions such as Focus.

The Imam made a Farman to the Jamat at a Didar immediately after signing the constitution.

He said that the apex institutions were known to the jamat and the institutions but unfortunately were not in the old Constitution therefore he signed the new Constitution.

The "official", "authorised", "approved" copy that is read in your Jamatkhana says fortunately instead of unfortunately.

The same farman in the Golden Edition says correctly the words of the Imam unfortunately

is this a typo in the "authorised farmans"? One may think so but it is not a typo, it is a change and there are thousands of such changes. [hundred+ changes in the London 1994 two farmans]

I hope no one will challenge me to list the changes I have seen in my lifetime because it will be a 2,000 pages book to list all of them and 10 years of my life which I do not have for this kind of useless task.

When I was young I used to question the top leadership why these changes? I was told that Hazar Imam thinks in French and speaks in English therefore we have to edit.

When I was asking them why the French farmans were not then published since the Imam "thinks in French", I was told the Imam speaks a colloquial French.

Needles to say the people telling this stupidity did not themselves speak any French so they could not have a clue of the quality of French spoken by the Imam....

I have stopped asking questions.

On est si bien servi que par soi-meme!

Pour ceux qui ne comprennent pas le Francais, tant pis et tant pis encore!

arifsali2000 · Post by **arifsali2000** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:38 pm

The discussion has apparently diverted from it's original topic. The change in farman occurs all the time, mostly intentional to match the context (we're people of Time if anyone forgot). The SMS farman on Chandrat is never read in entirety, I think people have the edited version memorized by now, most not even knowing that it is an edited one. There are various other examples. What is a big deal if we're adapting different words in the Ginans according to time and need, are they changing the essence altogether? What about the niyat? People calls Hasan Hasani everyday, Batini Batuni, no? Does that replaces the Pir Hasan with someone else, does that make us very talkative?

The example you're giving about unfortunate and fortunate would obviously be a typo otherwise it makes no sense. I do not wish to challenge you to write that 2000 page book but if the primary goal of publishing KIZ was to challenge the minor typos, grammatical corrections and proof reading mistakes than it seems like an overkill. Nobody becomes a kafir or a jahil by logically not detecting the typos or corrections in any text. If we are so particular about these minor things than we might as well produce exact audio CDs instead of paper books, save environment at the same time and be a perfectionists with the matter.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:01 pm

arifsali2000 wrote:If we are so particular about these minor things than we might as well produce exact audio CDs instead of paper books, save environment at the same time and be a perfectionists with the matter.

Don't give them ideas ....

samirnoorali · Post by **samirnoorali** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:54 pm

Changing the Farmans and Ginans

There is a saying in English: “Don’t put words in my mouth.” Is there a pressing need to take a person’s work and change it? When people write books, write articles, or make speeches that is a form of intellectual property. For example, Elvis Presley died in 1977, but his estate continues to make revenue off of his name and his memorabilia. If you were to take his name and change his lyrics to his songs, change what he said in public, or change his work in any fashion you would get hit with a lawsuit.

Take Barak Obama for example. If I were a Christian hardliner who was bent on showing that Islam does not support tolerance and racial equality I may decide to change the Presidents words from:

“And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.”

To something that I feel suits my belief:

“And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through war and bloodshed the possibilities of religious intolerance and racial bigotry.”

Then I publish this quote advocating that Barak Obama feels that “Islam Promotes Intolerance.” I may take a few pictures of women in Afganistan wearing blue hijabs and getting beated by the Taliban to add dramatic effect. I can take a few pictures of graves where non-conformists were killed because they preached blasphemy openly. I can take that context and create a negative image of Islam and sell lots of publications.

When we change people’s words we are committing an act of plagiarism, and more so we are committing intellectual theft. In this case we are taking the Ginans and Farmans, changing their words, and passing it off as the author’s original work. That is a distortion of their words, and the undermining of their intellectual property. That is not your property to touch, that is their property. Translation however is not an attempt to remove the words or meaning of the author. Ultimately the author wanted to set a fundamental message and truth. I say truth because saying: La illaha illalah as there is no god but God is not a violation of the meaning of the statement. It does not try to hijack the essence of the message.

When you take the words in Ashaji the original verse states: “Hari Anant” in its chorus. The councils have published Ginanic books which has changed the verse to “Ali Anant.” You have taken this to be a non-significant change, but the essence is lost if you change that word. That essence is not dependant on word play, it is dependent on an underlying message.

Hari literally means the Protector, and is the designation of Vishnu the Creator. There is an overwhelming majority of individuals who are bent with the notion that this is a trumpets Hinduism. My answer to that is so what? What is wrong with Hinduism? Hinduism preceded Islam many thousands of years. What about Moses in Islam? Why not take his name out of the Quran as it denotes Judaism. Along with that we should take out the name of Jesus Christ in the Bible, isn’t that a sign that we are promoting Christianity? So to keep those characters alive is okay and Islamic, but to keep characters who preceded Islam, or that were once part of a true doctrine, such as Hinduism, is incorrect?

Those people who brand Hari, or the Hindu elements in Ginans are not really bent on changing just the words. The underlying ethos behind changing the Ginans is to systematically remove anything that hints that Ali is Allah. Hari, being Vishnu, would means that we are equating the Imam as the Creator. That does not “jive” very well with a lot of people.

If you look at the present dua, many individuals claim that it is a “new dua.” But if you read the old dua you will find that quite a majority of the current dua was actually extracted from the old dua. To be more specific, the new dua is really a corrupt extraction of the old dua. I say corrupt because the new dua relinquishes many of the ethics of the old dua.

Ali Allah was a fundamental message that Pir Sadardin was trying to convey in his dua. Ali Allah in Arabic means Ali is Allah, as there is no such word as “is” in the language. It is implied. There was no reason to change Ali Allah to Aliyyullah. Since both are in Arabic, we can assume that there was a deliberate alteration in the dua. Why not keep it Ali Allah.

There is a movement within the Ismaili faith to remove Ali as Allah. That movement sparked the removal of the pictures in the front of Jamat Khane. Don’t say that those were approved by the Imam. No Imam ever made a statement that explicitly says that my pictures should be removed from the Jamat Khanes as that is un-Islamic. This was an attempt by the councils to act independently from the Imam and force this matter with the Jamat.

How could this happen without the Imam’s approval? Because that is the way society functions, thinks, comprehends the notion of God. Remember that Abu Baker, Umar, and Osman stole the office of leadership from Ali in the guise of democracy. To this day the majority of orthodox Muslims contend that Ali was the fourth Caliph. He was not supposed to be the fourth, he was supposed to be the first, but is the Imam going to argue about that?

There are no laws stating that we should not change the doctrines, but the people who stand up for the Pirs and the Ginans are acting independently to defend the faith. If you want to change the Ginans there will always be people who will stand up and fight back. There will always be people who will defend the words so that the Pir’s essence, his message, his teachings are not lost. If you want to change the Ginans so badly then why don’t you start by changing the Quran. Try changing the Quran and see what the Muslims worldwide would do to you. Change the Bible and see what the worldwide Christians would do to you. So it is all hunky dory to change the Ginans, but you are scared to change the Quran because it is the word of God. Ah, that is the point.

You see changing the Quran as forbidden, but you’re relentlessly adamant about changing the Ginans. That seems like a gross contradiction seeing as Muhammad’s words are the Quran and Pir Sadardin’s words are the Ginans. Pir Sadardin openly said that he is the Prophet Muhammad himself, and that would mean that the Ginans are on the same plain as the Quran. More so, for Ismailis the Ginans supersede the Quran because it is a later adaptation. Just as Muslims accept the Bible, but they don’t read it in the Mosques, similarly the Quran is accepted by Ismailis but is not read in Jamat Khane.

Now you will get individuals who say that we do recite six verses of the Quran in the dua, or that the Ginans are the essence of the Quran. Essence, perhaps, but Das Avatar, no matter how much we try to play with versus is not mentioned in the Quran. The Das Avatar is not a Hindu adaptation because Adam, Aaron, Simon Peter, Adnan, and many of the figures of Pir Sadardin’s version is not part of Hindu belief. If Pir Sadardin simply wanted to beguile the Hindus into becoming Muslim he would have never used these names as part of his anthology.

If you look at it very clearly, the Das Avatar of Pir Sadardin is different than the Hindu adaptation. The Hindus first of all see Farsi Ram as not quite divine, but semi-divine, whereas Pir Sadardin considered him to be completely divine. Even the dates that the Hindus give of Ramayan, Mahbarat, and many such epics don’t match the dates Pir Sadardin demonstrated in the Ginans. The Hindus consider Lakshman, the brother of their revered Ram, to be an ordinary human being whereas Pir Sadardin said that Lakhman was actually the Prophet Muhammad’s Noor himself.

Hindu theology pre-dates many of the religions present in this world, and so we can safely assume that many of its tenants are derived from historical facts. Ramayan was an epic, but the Hindus contend that it is not a myth but a historical fact. Therefore, as an Ismaili, you have direct access to dates which Pir Hasan Kabiradin gave in is dialectic exchange with the sage Kanipa.

If we say that these elements are un-Islamic, then my question is based on whose perspective of Islam? Based on the Sunni version, the Ithnasheri version? Are their versions true? Are we somehow gravitating to reach the ideals that Sunni Islam or Ithnasheri Shia Islam consider authentic? Based on whose perspective?

I say that they have their interpretation of what is Islamic, and Ismailis have their interpretation of what is Islamic. If that was the case then along with changing the Ginans to be more Islamic, let’s start wearing long beards, wear hijabs, and pray five times a day. So, we are changing the Ginans with a frivolous attempt to be more Islamic, but we are not willing to go all the way. That is being hypocritical. You are accepting only that which suits your fancy, while discarding the rest. A religion of convenience.

Our religion is not a religion of convenience. We have rules, we have direction, we have the Pir’s guidance and the Imam’s farmans to help us make sense of the world that we are living in. I sincerely encourage you to stop changing the Ginans and the Farmans, and encourage others to stop as well. Those are not your words, they are somebody else’s words. They are the words of God.

If you want to translate the Ginans into English, that is not a problem. But in the translation don’t lose the essence of Ali Allah. Don’t lose the essence of the Ali Muhmmad Yuk Kuda (Ali and Muhammad are one God). Don’t lose the dignity of the message the Pir was trying to convey. If you translate it in that frame of mind then I believe your translation will be admissible.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:18 pm

samirnoorali wrote:Changing the Farmans and Ginans

There is a saying in English: “Don’t put words in my mouth.” Is there a pressing need to take a person’s work and change it? When people write books, write articles, or make speeches that is a form of intellectual property. For example, Elvis Presley died in 1977, but his estate continues to make revenue off of his name and his memorabilia. If you were to take his name and change his lyrics to his songs, change what he said in public, or change his work in any fashion you would get hit with a lawsuit.

Take Barak Obama for example. If I were a Christian hardliner who was bent on showing that Islam does not support tolerance and racial equality I may decide to change the Presidents words from:

“And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.”

To something that I feel suits my belief:

“And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through war and bloodshed the possibilities of religious intolerance and racial bigotry.”

Then I publish this quote advocating that Barak Obama feels that “Islam Promotes Intolerance.” I may take a few pictures of women in Afganistan wearing blue hijabs and getting beated by the Taliban to add dramatic effect. I can take a few pictures of graves where non-conformists were killed because they preached blasphemy openly. I can take that context and create a negative image of Islam and sell lots of publications.

When we change people’s words we are committing an act of plagiarism, and more so we are committing intellectual theft. In this case we are taking the Ginans and Farmans, changing their words, and passing it off as the author’s original work. That is a distortion of their words, and the undermining of their intellectual property. That is not your property to touch, that is their property. Translation however is not an attempt to remove the words or meaning of the author. Ultimately the author wanted to set a fundamental message and truth. I say truth because saying: La illaha illalah as there is no god but God is not a violation of the meaning of the statement. It does not try to hijack the essence of the message.

When you take the words in Ashaji the original verse states: “Hari Anant” in its chorus. The councils have published Ginanic books which has changed the verse to “Ali Anant.” You have taken this to be a non-significant change, but the essence is lost if you change that word. That essence is not dependant on word play, it is dependent on an underlying message.

Hari literally means the Protector, and is the designation of Vishnu the Creator. There is an overwhelming majority of individuals who are bent with the notion that this is a trumpets Hinduism. My answer to that is so what? What is wrong with Hinduism? Hinduism preceded Islam many thousands of years. What about Moses in Islam? Why not take his name out of the Quran as it denotes Judaism. Along with that we should take out the name of Jesus Christ in the Bible, isn’t that a sign that we are promoting Christianity? So to keep those characters alive is okay and Islamic, but to keep characters who preceded Islam, or that were once part of a true doctrine, such as Hinduism, is incorrect?

Those people who brand Hari, or the Hindu elements in Ginans are not really bent on changing just the words. The underlying ethos behind changing the Ginans is to systematically remove anything that hints that Ali is Allah. Hari, being Vishnu, would means that we are equating the Imam as the Creator. That does not “jive” very well with a lot of people.

If you look at the present dua, many individuals claim that it is a “new dua.” But if you read the old dua you will find that quite a majority of the current dua was actually extracted from the old dua. To be more specific, the new dua is really a corrupt extraction of the old dua. I say corrupt because the new dua relinquishes many of the ethics of the old dua.

Ali Allah was a fundamental message that Pir Sadardin was trying to convey in his dua. Ali Allah in Arabic means Ali is Allah, as there is no such word as “is” in the language. It is implied. There was no reason to change Ali Allah to Aliyyullah. Since both are in Arabic, we can assume that there was a deliberate alteration in the dua. Why not keep it Ali Allah.

There is a movement within the Ismaili faith to remove Ali as Allah. That movement sparked the removal of the pictures in the front of Jamat Khane. Don’t say that those were approved by the Imam. No Imam ever made a statement that explicitly says that my pictures should be removed from the Jamat Khanes as that is un-Islamic. This was an attempt by the councils to act independently from the Imam and force this matter with the Jamat.

How could this happen without the Imam’s approval? Because that is the way society functions, thinks, comprehends the notion of God. Remember that Abu Baker, Umar, and Osman stole the office of leadership from Ali in the guise of democracy. To this day the majority of orthodox Muslims contend that Ali was the fourth Caliph. He was not supposed to be the fourth, he was supposed to be the first, but is the Imam going to argue about that?

There are no laws stating that we should not change the doctrines, but the people who stand up for the Pirs and the Ginans are acting independently to defend the faith. If you want to change the Ginans there will always be people who will stand up and fight back. There will always be people who will defend the words so that the Pir’s essence, his message, his teachings are not lost. If you want to change the Ginans so badly then why don’t you start by changing the Quran. Try changing the Quran and see what the Muslims worldwide would do to you. Change the Bible and see what the worldwide Christians would do to you. So it is all hunky dory to change the Ginans, but you are scared to change the Quran because it is the word of God. Ah, that is the point.

You see changing the Quran as forbidden, but you’re relentlessly adamant about changing the Ginans. That seems like a gross contradiction seeing as Muhammad’s words are the Quran and Pir Sadardin’s words are the Ginans. Pir Sadardin openly said that he is the Prophet Muhammad himself, and that would mean that the Ginans are on the same plain as the Quran. More so, for Ismailis the Ginans supersede the Quran because it is a later adaptation. Just as Muslims accept the Bible, but they don’t read it in the Mosques, similarly the Quran is accepted by Ismailis but is not read in Jamat Khane.

Now you will get individuals who say that we do recite six verses of the Quran in the dua, or that the Ginans are the essence of the Quran. Essence, perhaps, but Das Avatar, no matter how much we try to play with versus is not mentioned in the Quran. The Das Avatar is not a Hindu adaptation because Adam, Aaron, Simon Peter, Adnan, and many of the figures of Pir Sadardin’s version is not part of Hindu belief. If Pir Sadardin simply wanted to beguile the Hindus into becoming Muslim he would have never used these names as part of his anthology.

If you look at it very clearly, the Das Avatar of Pir Sadardin is different than the Hindu adaptation. The Hindus first of all see Farsi Ram as not quite divine, but semi-divine, whereas Pir Sadardin considered him to be completely divine. Even the dates that the Hindus give of Ramayan, Mahbarat, and many such epics don’t match the dates Pir Sadardin demonstrated in the Ginans. The Hindus consider Lakshman, the brother of their revered Ram, to be an ordinary human being whereas Pir Sadardin said that Lakhman was actually the Prophet Muhammad’s Noor himself.

Hindu theology pre-dates many of the religions present in this world, and so we can safely assume that many of its tenants are derived from historical facts. Ramayan was an epic, but the Hindus contend that it is not a myth but a historical fact. Therefore, as an Ismaili, you have direct access to dates which Pir Hasan Kabiradin gave in is dialectic exchange with the sage Kanipa.

If we say that these elements are un-Islamic, then my question is based on whose perspective of Islam? Based on the Sunni version, the Ithnasheri version? Are their versions true? Are we somehow gravitating to reach the ideals that Sunni Islam or Ithnasheri Shia Islam consider authentic? Based on whose perspective?

I say that they have their interpretation of what is Islamic, and Ismailis have their interpretation of what is Islamic. If that was the case then along with changing the Ginans to be more Islamic, let’s start wearing long beards, wear hijabs, and pray five times a day. So, we are changing the Ginans with a frivolous attempt to be more Islamic, but we are not willing to go all the way. That is being hypocritical. You are accepting only that which suits your fancy, while discarding the rest. A religion of convenience.

Our religion is not a religion of convenience. We have rules, we have direction, we have the Pir’s guidance and the Imam’s farmans to help us make sense of the world that we are living in. I sincerely encourage you to stop changing the Ginans and the Farmans, and encourage others to stop as well. Those are not your words, they are somebody else’s words. They are the words of God.

If you want to translate the Ginans into English, that is not a problem. But in the translation don’t lose the essence of Ali Allah. Don’t lose the essence of the Ali Muhmmad Yuk Kuda (Ali and Muhammad are one God). Don’t lose the dignity of the message the Pir was trying to convey. If you translate it in that frame of mind then I believe your translation will be admissible.

A lot of our other practices/elements of practices are from our old dua - we don't just realize it..

Dua Niyet Khair (though we butcher it - the Aath Pahor part - we say akhbat - which has no meaning)...tobho tobho taksidar..also from old dua.....

Shams

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:58 pm

ShamsB wrote:... we say akhbat - which has no meaning)...
Shams

It's actually "Aaq'ub'bat" Q is actually not an exact reperesentation of Arabic corresponding letter, which is here in this word. And it means "Future" "Fate", if you will.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:06 pm

I am told
Akhbat jo khair kar
may come from
Akhirat jo khair kar

AmarS · Post by **AmarS** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:47 am

Access is the most important element in this struggle, in that people don’t have access to the material. For many years there has been a difficulty in obtaining Farmans of the Imam…..

Really? By whom? Non-Ismailis, yes! However, Farmans are read in JK, twice in the morning and once in the evening. Besides, there are farman books in JK and you can ask Mukhisaheb to loan them to you for an hour before or after JK if you are seriously interested. I have done that many times. You cannot take the books home because they belong to JK. So Ismailis do have access to the farmans. In the past farman books have been sold at the literature desk in JK and I have, myself, accessed them.

I am no fan of the politics going on in the institutions, but I do not bad mouth them because these institutions are created by the Imam. I owe it to the Imam to respect them. Imam is well aware of what is going on and he has, on several occasions mentioned it openly.

and who appoints them ??

Dont that person know that he/she will do this in future ??

Dont he know that he/she will give his/her own family members chance to serve all big posts available @ committe/local & regional boards ???

Most appointments are made by the Imam himself. Questioning him is tantamount to saying:

1. Did Allah S.W.T. not know Adam and Eve will disobey Him?

2. Did Allah S.W.T. not know that Iblees will disobey Him?

So please stop insinuating and belittling the Imam and at the same time pretending to be a devoted Ismaili.

The individuals who brought out Kalame Imam e Zaman were of a special case. I say special because they were people of faith, people who believe to this day that Ali is Allah, and that they are trying to impart knowledge which is not being circulated

I do not think that people who brought out Kalame Imam E Zaman are motivated by their faith, rather they are motivated by greed. And your reference to “people who believe to this day that Ali is Allah” …. does not make any sense. What I sense is that you want to stir controversy here.

There are people on this site who are against Ismailism , and in particular against the Imam. There have been Yazids in every era so there is nothing new. Some of us have confronted them in other forums too and they spread the same rhetoric that is spread here via insinuations, to stir controversy while they pretend to be devoted (yet ignorant) Ismailis.

However, on this site there are people who have a lot of knowledge and then there are others who have none and are seeking knowledge and are visiting this site.

Herein lies the problem from “Insinuators” who try to sow the seeds of doubt. Take for example, you are pretending to "casually mentioning" that Ismailis believe Ali is Allah. Nothing new. Alawites believe so, and so do other Shi’as although they will deny it publicly. However, not all Ismailis believe Ali is Allah. I for one don’t. And there are many many more. So to attribute this belief to all Ismailis is misleading and poisoning the minds of unsuspecting youths and adult Ismailis who lack proper knowledge.

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah’s farman regarding Ali Allah is misconstrued by you and others. His farman has not been changed. This is a lie. I recently read it myself. If you read it and understad it, you will understand what Imam is trying to state. He himself had said that he was not God and those who consider him to be God are doing shirk. However, this farman has been stopped from being read in Jamat Khana because there are Ismailis who have become Shariati and have stayed at that level. You cannot teach a kindergarten kid lessons of a 12th grader.

As regards the changing of Hari Anant to Ali Anant… does the writer even know that Hari means God? Ali is one of the 99 names of Allah. What difference does it make whether you say Hari or Ali?

So please stop pretending to be good Ismailis. Good Ismailis do not carry garbage from Maherally’s site to the Ismaili site.

Good Ismailis read books on Ismailism bought from IIS and unbiased sites. These books are not all written by Ismailis but are written by people of other faiths too. Some are not favorable to Ismailism. Even then they are distributed. We are left to use our intellect and make our own conclusions, which no other Muslim sect is allowed to do about their faith. They must read what their leaders mete out.

“Council is the biggest pain in anybodies butt, be it for those who are trying to convert to those who are trying to get married ........a person who had doubts

Conversion is discouraged because Imam does not want people to convert because of convenience. He wants them to be convinced because changing a faith is not an easy task. Those who are converting because of marriage should not be encouraged, because Ismailism is not a faith of convenience, it is a faith of conviction. Other sister faiths do not care. They want to increase their population. There are other faiths which coerce and manipulate people (especially where marriage is concerned) to change their faith under the threat of persecution and excommunication.

If a person has doubts, Council lets them go wherever they want to go. This brings me to question, “Are you talking about Imami Ismailis and murids of Hazar Imam, or are you talking about the people who have recently started calling themselves Ismailis but their Imam is in hiding. What you are stating here fits them and not us.

Families are ex-communicated en masse if a member of family marries outside the faith and does not convert his or her spouse to their faith.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:09 am

AmarS wrote: I do not think that people who brought out Kalame Imam E Zaman are motivated by their faith, rather they are motivated by greed.

Interesting. it looks like you know a lot about them. Please share with us any info you have about these greedy people. Did you read the book? Did you meet these people?

I fail to see how people working overtime years after years to bring out such a high quality book which probably cost them $60 or $70 when you include taxes and shipping are selling it for $50. I think it is not a bunch of greedy people, Maybe it is a bunch of stupid people. Or maybe they know something you don't?

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:00 am

haroon_adel wrote:
ShamsB wrote:... we say akhbat - which has no meaning)...
Shams
It's actually "Aaq'ub'bat" Q is actually not an exact reperesentation of Arabic corresponding letter, which is here in this word. And it means "Future" "Fate", if you will.

it comes from a sijda in the old dua.

Dua Niyat Khair Ji
Illahi tu Khair Kariye
Aath Pahor (8 x 3 hours= 24 hours) jo Khair Kariye.
Ya Ali Tu Khair Kariye.
Jumle Jamat jo Khair Kariye
Khair Khair Ji Vinanti..Shah Toje Huzur Main Kabool Kar ...

That was the entire Sajda from the old dua..that was adapted into the tasbihs.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:02 am

Admin wrote:
AmarS wrote: I do not think that people who brought out Kalame Imam E Zaman are motivated by their faith, rather they are motivated by greed.
Interesting. it looks like you know a lot about them. Please share with us any info you have about these greedy people. Did you read the book? Did you meet these people?

I fail to see how people working overtime years after years to bring out such a high quality book which probably cost them $60 or $70 when you include taxes and shipping are selling it for $50. I think it is not a bunch of greedy people, Maybe it is a bunch of stupid people. Or maybe they know something you don't?

that should come to a total of about 150 max right admin?
I got a paypal request for 220.00

Shams

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:17 am

ShamsB wrote:
haroon_adel wrote:
ShamsB wrote:... we say akhbat - which has no meaning)...
Shams
It's actually "Aaq'ub'bat" Q is actually not an exact reperesentation of Arabic corresponding letter, which is here in this word. And it means "Future" "Fate", if you will.
it comes from a sijda in the old dua.

Dua Niyat Khair Ji
Illahi tu Khair Kariye
Aath Pahor (8 x 3 hours= 24 hours) jo Khair Kariye.
Ya Ali Tu Khair Kariye.
Jumle Jamat jo Khair Kariye
Khair Khair Ji Vinanti..Shah Toje Huzur Main Kabool Kar ...

That was the entire Sajda from the old dua..that was adapted into the tasbihs.

Shams

Yes, Shams brother that maybe, but here, I simply wanted to elaborate that the word "Aaq'ub'bat" has a meaning, and in english there's not a letter to represent its corresponding Arabic letter, and hence it can be written as "akhbat" or "Aaq'ub'bat". But, the origination of which where it came from, you may be correct.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:53 am

Aath Pahor (8 x 3 hours= 24 hours) jo Khair Kariye.

I agree with ShamB. the word Akhbat has been changed from above sentence

What difference does it make whether you say Hari or Ali?

Brother AmarS,

In my opinion it makes lot of differences first of all nobody has any rights or authorities to change the original text of ginans, if we continue to changing or keep ommiting the words in our wonderful ginanitic litarature then it may come one day that original ginans will be become totaly different than it was first written by pirs.
We are changing the words Hari to Ali, swami to Shah becasue these words sounds like Hindu name, if our ( I am not blaming only you or any particular individual) answer is yes then we should change holy quran as well because in Quran Kafir Iblis name hs been quoted 11 times. and Fir'aun name also quoted who claimed himself as Allah. Moses and Bani Israel (Jews) names also quoted many times so does Isa's name.
Even the name of Lut Nabi's Kaum also quoted, and we all know that
they were homosexual and lesbian.
I have not read (may be I missed it) any farman of SMS giving permission to change word Hari to Ali, if it is true then please give me date and place where such kind farmans were made so I double check it for my satisfaction

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:40 pm

I am in no way trying to defend the institutions, nor am I connected with them in any way. I do respect them as they are the connection between most of us and the Imam in religious as well as worldly matters. They are the appointed representatives of the Imam. I am just an ordinary Ismaili like most of us here who visit this website among others to seek and further their knowledge of Ismaili tariqa.

Some of us here sound like they have had a personal run in with the institutions, whether the council or ITREB, for whatever reasons and are just looking for an outlet to vent their displeasure. Others are giving their opinion, some out of knowledge they have and others out of ignorance or limited knowledge on the matter. It is easy to say that ITREB or the Councils have not received any guidance in this regard from the Imam and that they are doing it on their own but do we know that for sure? What if they do have the guidance and authority from the Imam to do so? Then are we not challenging the authority of the Imam? If one seeks the answer from the top authority then I suggest we start our search with Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubin. KIM will answer a lot of questions raised here out of ignorance.

I have myself raised questions with some higherups about the working and handling of issues by ITREB but have never questioned their authority as far as changes made in farmans or ginans as their authority comes from the top man himself! Although they could handle things a little differently and get better results.

www.ismaili.net

LIF

LIF

Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zama

Re: Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zama

Re: Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zama

Re: Regarding the Circulation of Kalame Imam e Zama

Changing the Farmans and Ginans

Re: Changing the Farmans and Ginans

Re: Changing the Farmans and Ginans

Re: Changing the Farmans and Ginans

Re: Changing the Farmans and Ginans