Sahabae Karam and their conspiracies

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

arshad1988 wrote:
pardesi wrote:Arshad1988,

"I think I will put my trust in His word. If He says that they were written in the hands of scribes which were just, and that the job of collecting it is on Him, the Exalted, what makes you say otherwise?"

I know it is mentioned in the Quran that Allah has taken it upon Himself to collect and promulgate but nowhere have I read that they were written in the hands of scribes which were just. I dont know what have you been reading but it is not in the Quran that I have. Are you referring to "rasikoon fil ilm"?

I did not mean any disrespect to you nor did I address you in the third person in any of my posts. If I hurt your feelings, I apologize. We are debating here and so long as we keep within the fold of decency and respect for each others' beliefs, I think we will both learn from each other.

Pardesi
I had posted the surah and ayah numbers up above. I will post again.

Surah 80

11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:
12. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
13. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
14. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
15. (Written) by the hands of scribes-
16. Honourable and Pious and Just.

17. Woe to man! What hath made him reject Allah.
ShamsB wrote: It's actually your word against that of the Imam..and frankly ..He outranks and outweighs you.

You're choosing to believe what some scholar put out there..than that of the Present Living Imam....to whom you gave ba'yah?

Remember that the institution of Imamah predates the the Quran...keep that in mind.

Shams
It is not a 'scholar' out there it is Allah that said it. You might not like my approach, but I would like to see actual discrepancies in the Qur'an before I can reject it as being 'corrupt.'
As stated before - the word of the Imam is paramount over anything else for me - my Ba'yah is to him.
and quoting from the quran itself
"Wa Kulla Shain Asaina Hufi Imamin Mubeen"
And we have vested the knowledge and authority of everything in the mainfest Imam."

Shams
m0786
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Post by m0786 »

"Wa Kulla Shain Asaina Hufi Imamin Mubeen"
And we have vested the knowledge and authority of everything in the mainfest Imam."

Shams
It is Oxymoron, Why quote or use a passages from corrupted “Othman Qur’an” to justify institute of “mainfest Imam"
You do not need any justification. Institute predates Qur’an.
pardesi
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Post by pardesi »

Dear Arshad1988,

In replying to your post above where you mentioned and I am pasting part of it here:

"I had posted the surah and ayah numbers up above. I will post again.

Surah 80

11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:
12. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
13. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
14. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
15. (Written) by the hands of scribes-
16. Honourable and Pious and Just.
17. Woe to man! What hath made him reject Allah.

It is not a 'scholar' out there it is Allah that said it. You might not like my approach, but I would like to see actual discrepancies in the Qur'an before I can reject it as being 'corrupt.'"


OK. Now let me make this clear. The corruption or discrepancies we are talking about is not in the message of Allah as revealed to Prophet Mohammad. The problem lies in the way it was collected in a book form by unauthorized people. If you read the history behind the collection of the verses and the circumstances surrounding this activity you will realize that the Quran we have in a book form is a book produced by consensus of a committee of four or five people under the watchful eyes of the first three caliphs. Now do you consider any of those three “scholars”? They did not possess the qualification to be overseers of any religious project let alone producing a book like Quran. Allah has challenged in the Quran to “produce a like thereof” referring to the Quran and in my opinion the book we have today which is called Quran is a “like thereof”. You will not find any errors in this book as the question is of omission and not corruption of words and the chronological order and displacement of several verses. Again this is strictly my opinion.

In Surah 80 (‘Abasa) Allah is showing his displeasure about the treatment meted out to a blind man who entered a teaching session by the Prophet in a disruptive or interruptive way which was disliked by the Prophet and instead of saying anything he just frowned. Allah mentions that the Quran is a message for everyone and that it should be equally taught regardless of color, status or handicap. Then Allah says that this message is in (all His) Books which are held in honour and His message is Exalted and kept pure and holy by the ones who carried it to the messengers. Here the meaning I get is that upon Allah’s instructions the message was conveyed to the prophet by the Angel who kept it pure and holy without corrupting it in any way. Here these sentences in no way point to the scribes of the Prophet who ultimately had to sit down and compare each other’s notes before agreeing or disagreeing to insert them into Quran. In the first go in the time of Abu Bakr/Umar they made few mistakes and passed on an incomplete Quran to the Ummah (could this be called a corruption?). Later on in the time of Uthman some ayats were found in possession of someone which were not in the initial Book and were inserted in the revised Quran. Now the question is if there were only two ayats missing from the original Quran what was the need to write the whole Quran and burn off all the copies of the older Quran. They could have saved a lot of time, energy and resources by just changing a particular page or two where these new found ayats were inserted. Obviously a whole lot was changed in the new version and therefore the older copies were ordered to be destroyed. The newly discovered Sana’a manuscripts point towards this. The order of Surahs and Ayats is altered and God knows what else.

To understand Quran reading up the translation of Yusufali or anyone else for that matter is not enough. There are several interpretations/tafsirs available that can easily explain the verses in their proper context. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.tafheem.net/main800.html

Check out the tafsir for Surah 80 (‘Abasa).
pardesi
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Post by pardesi »

m0786 wrote:
"Wa Kulla Shain Asaina Hufi Imamin Mubeen"
And we have vested the knowledge and authority of everything in the mainfest Imam."

Shams
It is Oxymoron, Why quote or use a passages from corrupted “Othman Qur’an” to justify institute of “mainfest Imam"
You do not need any justification. Institute predates Qur’an.
The hadith literature is full of fabricated and "dhaeef" ahadith in the thousands. Muslims still consider the literature as the holiest after Quran. They quote from it every day to justify their laws, sharia and lifestyles.

Would you call that Oxymoron?
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

m0786 wrote:
"Wa Kulla Shain Asaina Hufi Imamin Mubeen"
And we have vested the knowledge and authority of everything in the mainfest Imam."

Shams
It is Oxymoron, Why quote or use a passages from corrupted “Othman Qur’an” to justify institute of “mainfest Imam"
You do not need any justification. Institute predates Qur’an.

Actually it's not..i am using your material to make my point...it's like taking your stick and beating you on the head with it.

Shams
m0786
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Post by m0786 »

Shams

You cannot win arguments using fragmented parts of Ayah of Qur’an. Here is whole Ayah and multiple translations. There is no such thing as “Manifest Imam” in this Aya.

[32:12] 'in(na) -naa nah.nu nuh.ye al- mawtaa wa- naktub maa qaddamo wa- 'aathaar -hum wa- kull shay' ah.s.aynaa -hu fe 'imaam muben

[Malik 32:16]: Surely We shall resurrect the dead, We are recording all that they are sending ahead and that they are leaving behind. We have recorded everything in an open ledger.

[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.

[Yusufali 36:12] Verily We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind, and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book (of evidence).

[Pickthal 36:12] Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a clear Register.
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

m0786 wrote:Shams

You cannot win arguments using fragmented parts of Ayah of Qur’an. Here is whole Ayah and multiple translations. There is no such thing as “Manifest Imam” in this Aya.

[32:12] 'in(na) -naa nah.nu nuh.ye al- mawtaa wa- naktub maa qaddamo wa- 'aathaar -hum wa- kull shay' ah.s.aynaa -hu fe 'imaam muben

[Malik 32:16]: Surely We shall resurrect the dead, We are recording all that they are sending ahead and that they are leaving behind. We have recorded everything in an open ledger.

[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.

[Yusufali 36:12] Verily We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind, and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book (of evidence).

[Pickthal 36:12] Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a clear Register.
Once again..difference in interpretation..
you're interpreting imamin mubeen as register/ledger
we interpret it as Manifest Imam.


Shams
m0786
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Post by m0786 »

Shams
Let us substitute “Manifest Imam” in Scholars translations.
[32:12] 'in(na) -naa nah.nu nuh.ye al- mawtaa wa- naktub maa qaddamo wa- 'aathaar -hum wa- kull shay' ah.s.aynaa -hu fe 'imaam muben

[Malik 32:16]: Surely We shall resurrect the dead, We are recording all that they are sending ahead and that they are leaving behind. We have recorded everything in a Manifest Imam.

[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a Manifest Imam.

[Yusufali 36:12] Verily We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind, and of all things have We taken account in a Manifest Imam(of evidence).

[Pickthal 36:12] Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a Manifest Imam.

It makes lot of sense. Isn’t it?
pardesi
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Post by pardesi »

Nothing would make sense to those whose eyes and hearts Allah has shut. It is interesting to note that in the translation by Pickthal the last sentence is separated by a period and not a comma like others have done. What would be the reason. Was this last verse revealed at a separate occasion thereby completely changing its context.

Here is a translation of 36:12 by Mir Ahmed Ali, a Shia scholar:

"Verily We, (and) We (alone) give life unto the dead, and We write down what they have sent before them and (even) their footprints (which they leave behind them): And everything have We confirmed into a *Manifesting Imam (Guide)." (Holy Qur'an Surah Yasin:12, S.V. Mir Ahmed Ali's translation).

*Said the Holy Prophet: "He who died while he recognized not the Imam of the Age, certainly died he the death of ignorance." (Note from Holy Qur'an, S.V. Mir Ahmed Ali's translation, page 1318).

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 36:12]

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said that when this verse was revealed, Abu Bakr and Umar asked the Holy Prophet: "Is imamum mubin the Tawrat given to Musa?" The answer was: "No". Again they asked: "Is it Injil, given to Isa?" The answer was: "No". Then they asked: "Is it the Holy Quran?" "No", was the answer. Then turning towards Ali ibn abi Talib, the Holy Prophet said: "Verily this is the Imam in whom Allah has deposited the knowledge of everything." Then, addressing the people present there, the Holy Prophet said: "O people, there is no branch of knowledge Allah did not teach me and I have not conveyed it to Ali. Verily Allah has given me wisdom and I have given it to Ali. I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate."

Looking at Ali's face is an act of Ibadah. This is in your hadith literature.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Whatever man does is recorded. The record of the deeds of every individual, and the records pertaining to creation and legislation (which includes knowledge of everything that has been created since the beginning, its progress and the laws governing it) have been made known to "the manifesting Imam", therefore he is the repository of all knowledge. The manifesting Imams have been clearly identified in Ahzab: 33; Waqi-ah: 77 to 79; Ali Imran: 61 and hadith al thaqalayn.

Like ShamsB mentioned in one of his posts the difference is in interpretation.
znanwalla
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At the last stage of illness, the Holy Prophet

Post by znanwalla »

[b][color=darkblue][/color][size=18][/size]<BR><BR>was staying at the house of Bibi Aeisha; he was very weak and actually had to be carried to lead the last prayers...the exertion was too much for him and when he returned home, his condition was serious....his family, companions and others were weeping and lamenting...at this point he asked for a pen and a parchment so that he could write his Will and which would according to him keep the Umma o&shy;n the Straight path...some of the companions wanted to offer the pen and the paper but Hadrath Umar said to them not to give as the Prophet was delirious and was taking "insanely' o&shy;n account of his illness...this discussion took a serious turn and people started arguing in loud voices and the Holy Prophet (pbuh) got annoyed at all this and asked them all to go away and to leave him alone...(Sahih Bukhari - para 12 - page 126, Para 8, page 100, para 23, page 384, Minhay ul sunnath of Allama Ibne Themia, Sharahe Sahih muslim of Allama Noodi, gives a detailed account of this event.<BR><BR>This was sunday the 27th of safar, after the above incident the Prophet called Hazrat Ali and said .." Ali you will be the first to meet me o&shy;n the fountain of Kauser. After me whn hardship and reverses face you then do not lose patience and when you find people running away after worldly gains, then you busy yourself in the way of truth and God.." (Roaz ul Ahlab - Vol 1 Page 559, Maderej ul Naboovath - Vol 11, page 551)<BR><BR>Next day , monday the 28th of safar the Holy Prophet passed away to the realm of HIS grace ![/b]
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

Allama Mohamed Ibne Sa'd in his famous book Thabaquath (Vol 2 - Section 2) - page 51 and 61 relates that during the caliphate of Hadrath Umar, a famous Jew Kab'ul Akbar (who had later o&shy;n embraced Islam) asked the caliph..."Sire please tell me what were the last words of the Holy Prophet." ?.....the caliph told him to go and ask Hadrat Aliyy about it. Ka'b came to Aliyy and asked him about it and Aliyy (As) replied..." during the last moments of Holy Prophet (AS) &nbsp;his head was resting o&shy;n my shoulder and his last words were salat salat (prayers prayers).<BR><BR>Ka'b declared..."Verily last moment of Prophets have always been thus, they are ordained for it and they carry the Message even with their last breath.."<BR><BR>Then Ka'b went again to Hadrath Umar and asked him..."Sire, who performed the ablutions to the body of the Prophet after his death..."? The caliph told Ka'b to go and ask hadrath Aliyy about this too.<BR><BR>Ka'b came back to Aliyy and asked him....Aliyy replied.." The Apostle of God had willed that NONE but I should perform those ablutions because if any other person looked at his naked body he would become blind and so a curtain was hanged and from the other side Fazl Ibne Abbas and Osama who had been blind folded were passing the water to me and I was performing the ablutions..."<BR><BR>These facts that Aliyy was the o&shy;nly o&shy;ne who performed the ablution and the final rites and was the o&shy;nly o&shy;ne with the Prophet are borne out by the books Thazkeray Khasul A'imma - Chapter 11 - page 16; Kunzul Ammal - Vol 1v - page 55; Musthadrik of Imam Hakim - Vol 11 - page 139; Riaz ul Nazarah - page 80 and Mo'jum e Kabeer of Thabranee.<BR><BR>After the last ablutions and the shrouding as per the Will of the Prophet, first and foremost Hadrath Aliyy performed the "death prayers" ALONE and then parties of muslims came and offered their prayers.
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

When Hadrath Aliyy (AS) and beni hshim were busy with the last rites of the burial of the Prophet SAW, some Mohajirs and some Ansars gathered at saqeefa and decided that hadrath Aboo bakr be the caliph..a detailed account can be found in Tabaree - Vol 11 - pages 202 and 303 ;&nbsp; Tareekh e Khulafa - page 45 and Kunz ul Ammal - Vol 11 - page 140.<BR><BR>Many books give account of the serious events which happened at Hadrath Aliyy's refusal to <BR>the decision of saqeefa and so o&shy;ne should go and read :<BR><BR>Tabari - Vol 111 - page 198<BR>Aqd ul Fareed of Ibne e Rubbabo - Vol 11 - page 179<BR>History of Abul Fida - Vol 1 - page 156<BR>Kitabul Imamuth wo siyasuth of Allama Ibne Quateeba - Vol 1 - page 20<BR>Moravej ul Zahab Musoodee - page 159 and many other similar narrations show the unfortunate and sad episodes that followed the death of the Holy Prophet.
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

The word Imam is used seven times in singular and five times in plural form in the Koran.

These Koranic verses may be classified into five groups in consonant with different shades of meaning.

There are ayats which also refer to the IMAM as the Clear Book ! Try and do some research....they are there !

"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Verily, I make you Imam for the mankind. Abraham said: And of my offspring? He (God) said: My covenant does not include the unjust" (2:124)....and so the unjust ones have since long disappeared !

Also it is clear from the above that Imamat is NOT a new phenomena but existed since very long.

"And We made them Imams guiding people by Our command and We revealed to them the doing of good and keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve" (21:73).

"And We made Imams among them to guide by Our command when they were patient and they were certain of Our signs" (32:24).

"And We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams and to make them heirs" (28:5).

So whom has Allah made HIS heirs? the Truthful Imams from the PURE
progeny of the Prophet (SAW)...in this era, the ALID Imams !

The above verses indicate that the rightful Imams are divinely designated and that they are from the progeny of Prophet Abraham.

Hence, Ali bin Abu Talib was from the same descent, designated Imam by the Prophet at the command of God and so are his pure descendants.
Valani
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Post by Valani »

<P>I have been following this threat and appreciate the amount of information provided by both the parties. I agree with those who said that the difference&nbsp;is all about interpretation of various verses of Quran. My heart however feels comfortable with that Quran can not be tempered with as Allah has taken the responsibility of its preservation and arrangement o&shy;n himself. o&shy;n the other hadn SMS's farmans are also quite clear and detailed. <BR><BR>I believe this useful and informative discussion should carry with more stuff. <BR><BR>I pray that Allah show us all the LIGHT to understand the reality and make us not of those who have been made BLIND, DEAF and DUMB.<BR><BR>Carry o&shy;n guyz.<BR><BR>Every work done in good faith for the purpose of clarifying misconceptions regarding religion will Insha Allah be held positive by Allah.<BR><BR></P>
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

Yes! The quran of Allah - as revealed is safe and protected and confined safely.....

"And enjoin prayer on your household ." (20:132), Jaledin Siyuti in "al-Durr al-Manthur", has related as quoting Abu Saeed Khidri as saying that after this verse was revealed, for eight months, the Prophet went to the house of `Ali every morning at the time of morning prayers and read this verse: ".. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!And to purify you a (thorough) purifying (33:33)." "Al-Durr al-Manthur" 198/5 and 199; "Fadail al-Khamsah"; 226/1).

Bibi Fatima said He (Allah) has made the (Zakat) "alms",Khums obligatory as a means of cleaning your souls and for growth of your sustenance, as a means of steadfastness in sincerity, and as a means of might in your religion, and as a means of harmony for your hearts, and He has made your obedience to us [Ahlul-Bayt] obligatory as a means of organising the community properly, and has made "us religious leaders" [i.e. we Ahlul-Bayt ruling you] a source of security from disunion of the nation.

Bibi Fatima:

O people, know that I am Fatimah, my father is Muhammad [SWS ].I do not say what is wrong, and I do not transgress, the Messenger of Allah came to you from amongst yourselves; your suffering has been a heavy burden upon him, and he was very loving and compassionate towards the believers; so, if you honour, you will realize that he was my father and not the father of anyone amongst your women, and he is the brother of (Ali) to the exclusion of all the rest of your men.

The leader of Truth is amongst you [meaning her husband Imam Ali
( a.s.)], and the Pledge that he has pledged with you from before (at Ghadir-e-Khum on 18th Zil-Hajj 10 A.H.) ...Ali is with the Quran ! and the Quran is with Ali !!!! The truth follows Ali !
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

znanwalla wrote:Yes! The quran of Allah - as revealed is safe and protected and confined safely.....

"And enjoin prayer on your household ." (20:132), Jaledin Siyuti in "al-Durr al-Manthur", has related as quoting Abu Saeed Khidri as saying that after this verse was revealed, for eight months, the Prophet went to the house of `Ali every morning at the time of morning prayers and read this verse: ".. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!And to purify you a (thorough) purifying (33:33)." "Al-Durr al-Manthur" 198/5 and 199; "Fadail al-Khamsah"; 226/1).

Bibi Fatima said He (Allah) has made the (Zakat) "alms",Khums obligatory as a means of cleaning your souls and for growth of your sustenance, as a means of steadfastness in sincerity, and as a means of might in your religion, and as a means of harmony for your hearts, and He has made your obedience to us [Ahlul-Bayt] obligatory as a means of organising the community properly, and has made "us religious leaders" [i.e. we Ahlul-Bayt ruling you] a source of security from disunion of the nation.

Bibi Fatima:

O people, know that I am Fatimah, my father is Muhammad [SWS ].I do not say what is wrong, and I do not transgress, the Messenger of Allah came to you from amongst yourselves; your suffering has been a heavy burden upon him, and he was very loving and compassionate towards the believers; so, if you honour, you will realize that he was my father and not the father of anyone amongst your women, and he is the brother of (Ali) to the exclusion of all the rest of your men.

The leader of Truth is amongst you [meaning her husband Imam Ali
( a.s.)], and the Pledge that he has pledged with you from before (at Ghadir-e-Khum on 18th Zil-Hajj 10 A.H.) ...Ali is with the Quran ! and the Quran is with Ali !!!! The truth follows Ali !
What is the point of Allah mentioning that the Qur'an that was revealed is protected? To me it does not make sense and seems a little strange...obviously no one can corrupt a book that no one else has access to.

15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).[/b]
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

arshad1988 wrote:15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).[/b]
The Message can be interpreted as the Guidance manifested in the living Imam who is protected from corruption.
binom
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Post by binom »

kmaherali wrote:
arshad1988 wrote:15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).[/b]
The Message can be interpreted as the Guidance manifested in the living Imam who is protected from corruption.
Or the Message can be more obviously interpreted as the Guidance manifested in the Qur'an, which is protected from corruption, as the verse itself says.
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

March 1975 L'expansion.

Q. What is your role as head of the community?

A. It is two-fold. The Imam must direct Ismailis on the practice of their religion and constantly interpret the Qur'an for them according to our theology. On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible. This is fundamental to our religion - perhaps something similar is found in the case of the Pope in the Catholic religion.

That is not all. The Imam is at all times responsible for aid and assistance to Ismailis in their material life. Not directly, but in the sense that he helps them to follow the necessary institutions for their material progress.


So - Only the Imam can interpret the Quran - according to our theology - and that authority is absolute - we have Farmans of the Imam stating that the Quran is missing verses; the Quran is missing verses - for an Ismaili that should be the end of the discussion.


Shams
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

It is more effective to also show from the Quran itself so then it becomes more conclusive for those who are NOT Ismailis.

We have sent among you a Messenger from you (minkum) who recites to you Our Signs and purifies you and teaches you the Book (al-Kitab) and the Wisdom ( al-Hikmat) and teaches you that which you did not know. - Holy Quran 2:151

5: 17 There hath come to you From Allah a (new) light And a perspicuous Book

So SIGNS is plural ! Prophet purified and taught muslims the BOOK (Al-Kitab)...and the WISDOM ! and it is also clear that Allah has sent a LIGHT and a PERSCPICOUS Book ! Perscpicous means flawless and perfect in all respect !

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate family) said, “I leave amongst you TWO most weighty things; one is the BOOK OF ALLAH, THE HOLY QUR’AN AND THE OTHER IS MY AHLUL-BAYT?

If the Holy Qur’an was not readily in the book form, then how come this is mentioned in the quran and in the hadith? And so then the question arises? why did muslims scramble to put together different "mushufs", after the Prophet's death and after many scribes had already died and then call it the Book? Are the TEXTS Perscpicous? No ! and so what do you want Allah to protect? HIS own BOOK which HE had given to the Prophet? or the one compiled by man?

Are the scattered chapters in the hearts and minds of people the same as a readily compiled Book ?

And so logically which one would Allah protect? HIS own Quran from which the Prophet was teaching? or the man made compilations done after his death?

Amir ul Momineen frequently said:

"By Allah,no verse has been sent down without my knowing about whom or what it was revealed and where it was revealed. "Ask me about the Book of Allah,for by Allah,there is no verse about which I do not know whether it was sent down at night or during the day,or whether it was revealed on a plain or in a mountain....."

[18:57] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing.

Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears.

Thus they can never ever be guided.

God sent only one Quran - the original - as revealed and NOT as compiled and put together by the scribes and companions ....

Al-Baqir said: There is absolutely no one from the people that can say he has the entirety of the Qur'an as it was revealed by Allah except a liar; the one only who possesses it all and has preserved it as it was revealed by Allah was Ali ibn Abi Talib, and the Imams after him. (As-Saffar al-Qummi Basa'ir 4:193)

Now this is the Quran Allah has promised to protect - not the man made texts put together by the scribes, after the death of the Prophet SAW.

STARTLING CONFESSIONS
November 29th, 2007
STARTLING CONFESSIONS

Let us examine the personal confessions of some of the most ancient and foremost “Imams” (’Canonical’ authorities) who narrated History, Hadith (Prophetic sayings and traditions), laid down Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) and did Tafseer (explanation) of the Quran.

IMAM RAZI’S HORRIBLE CONFESSION:

Most Muslims have heard of one of the most ancient and famous Tafseer-e-Kabeer (The Great Exposition of the Quran) by Imam Fakhruddin Razi.

This Tafseer is one of the tops being followed by our Mullahs till this day.

After writing his 300 volumes, ‘the great and authoritative’ Imam confesses: “All my intellectual and supposedly logical statements in the explanation of the Quran turned out to be lame.

All the explanations of the Quran done by the so-called Imams (Tabari, Zamakhshari, Ibne Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim etc) are misguided and misleading. All of us were the tools of Satan.

Our souls were polluted by our physical desires. All our endeavors and works of this world promise to bring upon us nothing but eternal humiliation, torture and doom.”

Hadith-Ul-Quran by Allama Inayatullah Khan Al-Mashriqi, 1954 edition, Pg 190.

IMAM TABARI’S STRANGE CONFESSION:

“I am writing this book as I hear from the narrators. If anything sounds absurd, I should not be blamed or held accountable. The responsibility of all blunders rests squarely on the shoulders of those who have narrated these stories to me.”

So, Tabari wrote nothing but hearsay. Mazhabi Dastanain Aur Un Ki Haqeeqat by Allama Habib-ur-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalwi, Ar-Rahman Publishing Trust, Karachi


Tareekhil Umam Wal Mulook (The History of Nations and Kings) popularly called “The Mother of All Histories” is the first ever “History of Islam” written by ‘Imam’ Tabari (839-923 CE) at the junction of the third and fourth century AH. He died in 310 AH, three centuries after the exalted Prophet.

What were his sources? Not a scrap of paper! “He told me this who heard it from him who heard it from her and she heard it from so and so,” and so on.

By compiling his 13 Volume History and his 30 Volume Exposition of the Quran under royal patronage, Tabari became the Super Imam. The later historians until this day have persisted in following the trails of the Super Imam. Imam Zahri Wa Imam Tabari, Tasweer Ka Doosra Rukh by Muhaddith-ul-‘Asr Jaame’-ul-‘Uloom Hazrat Allama Tamanna Imadi Phulwari, Ar-Rahman Publishing Trust, Karachi

IMAM IBN KATHIR’S CONFESSION: “Had Ibn Jareer Tabari not recorded the strange reports, I would never have done so.” Tafseer Ibn Katheer, Khilaafat-e-Mu’awiya-o-Yazeed, Mahmood Ahmed Abbasi

IMAM AHMAD BIN HANBAL’S CHASTISEMENT: The sincere Islamic scholar of the 20th century, Allama Shibli Na’mani, on page 27 Vol 1 of his Seeratun Nabi has given a startling quote of the ancient Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), “Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghazi, Malahem and Tafseer.” (The Prophet’s Battles, Dreams & Prophecies and Expositions of the Quran.)

HISTORIAN IBN KHALDOON’S THRASHING: “The Muslim historians have made a mockery of history by filling it with fabrications and senseless lies.”

Muqaddama Tareekh Ibn Khaldoon. [Ibn Khaldoon then himself makes a mockery of history. Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal points out that there is nothing worth reading in his book but the preface, Muqaddama. Dr. Shabbir respectfully agrees.]

SHAH ABDUL AZIZ’S CRITIQUE: “Several pages of Ibn Khaldoon’s History have been deliberately removed since the earliest times.

SHAH WALIULLAH’S CHASTISEMENT: “Imam Jalaluddin Sayyuti’s Tarikh-ul-Khulafa is the prime example of how our Historians, Muhaddithin and Mufassirin, each have played like Haatib-il-Lail (The man who collects firewood at night not knowing which piece is good and which one is bad).” Hujjatullah-il-Baalighah

WHO AUTHORISED muslims TO INTRODUCE THESE INNOVATIONS IN ISLAM?

THE RELIGION OF ISLAM WAS ALREADY COMPLETED BY ALLAH HIMSELF BY THE TIME THE HOLY PROPHET (peace and blessings be upon him and his immaculate progeny) PARTED THIS WORLD.

33:36 “IT IS NOT FOR TRUE BELIEVERS - MEN OR WOMEN - TO TAKE THEIR CHOICE IN THEIR AFFAIRS IF ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE DECREE OTHERWISE. HE THAT DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE STRAYS FAR INDEED.”

49:1-2 “BELIEVERS DO NOT BE FORWARD IN THE PRESENCE OF ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE. HAVE FEAR OF ALLAH: HE HEARS ALL AND KNOWS ALL. BELIEVERS DO NOT RAISE YOUR VOICE ABOVE THE VOICE OF THE PROPHET, NOR SPEAK ALOUD WHEN SPEAKING TO HIM AS YOU DO TO ONE ANOTHER. LEST YOUR LABOUR SHOULD COME TO NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE.”

59:8 “WHATEVER THE PROPHET GIVES YOU, ACCEPT IT AND WHATEVER HE FORBIDS YOU FORBEAR IT.”

59:8 “WHATEVER THE PROPHET GIVES YOU, ACCEPT IT AND WHATEVER HE FORBIDS YOU FORBEAR IT.”

If the Messenger of Allah could not and would not alter anything, how could the muslims interfere and introduce bida’h? And so what sort of Muslims are we to accept such innovations, to begin with?

Didn’t the Holy Prophet (pbuhf) say, “whatever I Muhammad has made halal will remain halal up to the Day of Judgement and whatever I Muhammad has made haram will remain haram up to the Day of Judgement”?

If so, then on whose authority are we Muslims following the innovations and bid’ats ?

THE ABOVE MENTIONED VERSES ARE CLEAR CUT AND THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANY INNOVATIONS OR BID’AH IN ISLAM.

“This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favour to you. I have chosen Islam to be your faith.” 5:3.

If Allah claims to have completed His Deen, then why and for what are all these changes after the departure of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate progeny) accepted by the muslims?

How can one claim to be following the Deen of Muhammad (pbuhf) if they allow such manipulation ?

This would then mean drifting away from the original Islam as preached by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate progeny) in the light of the Holy Qur’an and as per commandment of Allah.

Do you have more questions? do please ask if you require further clarifications.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
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Post by znanwalla »

9: 68 Allah hath promised the Hypocrites Men and women and the rejecters of Faith the fire of Hell: There in shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: For them is the curse of Allah ; And an enduring punishment,-

9: 66 Make ye no excuses: Ye have rejected Faith After ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We Will punish others amongst you for that they are in sin

7:182 Those who reject Our Signs, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways They perceive not; They ask thee about The (final) Hour- when Will be its appointed time?

Say: "The knowledge thereof Is with my Lord (alone): None but He can reveal As to when it will occur.

Heavy were its burden through The heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden, Will it come to you." They ask thee as if thou Wert eager in search

And now review this ayah...it speaks for itself...

" SAY: Were the sea to be Ink for the words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of MY Lord were EXhausted, even if WE WERE TO BRING THE LIKE THEREOF TO HELP..."

It is clear the BOOK is NOT enough ! plus the TAWIL is only known to the Inheritors and those who are the MUTHHAROON (Purified ones) as the Holy Quran (Sura al Azhaab).

" None shall touch it save the purified ones (Mutahharoon)..." (Sura al Waaqi)

Allah alone has purified the Ahl al Bayt with a thorough purification - HU purified them and so meet the criteria to "touch" the noble Quran...the majority of us are deaf, dumb and blind if I may say so !

YUTAHHIRAKUM TATHEERAN comes from the same root of TAAHIR or PURE and frankly what I am saying is not a secret ! there is nothing ambiguous as the Quran has said this all along.
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

ShamsB wrote:March 1975 L'expansion.

Q. What is your role as head of the community?

A. It is two-fold. The Imam must direct Ismailis on the practice of their religion and constantly interpret the Qur'an for them according to our theology. On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible. This is fundamental to our religion - perhaps something similar is found in the case of the Pope in the Catholic religion.

That is not all. The Imam is at all times responsible for aid and assistance to Ismailis in their material life. Not directly, but in the sense that he helps them to follow the necessary institutions for their material progress.


So - Only the Imam can interpret the Quran - according to our theology - and that authority is absolute - we have Farmans of the Imam stating that the Quran is missing verses; the Quran is missing verses - for an Ismaili that should be the end of the discussion.


Shams
15:1. A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.

12:1. A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

27:1. These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;

24:34. We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear ((Allah)).

These are just a few verses. Hazar Imam says that he interprets the message, he does not deliver it. Hence, if there are things which are unambiguous, which are the foundation of the Book, then it is safe to approach it. Otherwise, approach the Imam.
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

znanwalla wrote:It is more effective to also show from the Quran itself so then it becomes more conclusive for those who are NOT Ismailis.

We have sent among you a Messenger from you (minkum) who recites to you Our Signs and purifies you and teaches you the Book (al-Kitab) and the Wisdom ( al-Hikmat) and teaches you that which you did not know. - Holy Quran 2:151

5: 17 There hath come to you From Allah a (new) light And a perspicuous Book

So SIGNS is plural ! Prophet purified and taught muslims the BOOK (Al-Kitab)...and the WISDOM ! and it is also clear that Allah has sent a LIGHT and a PERSCPICOUS Book ! Perscpicous means flawless and perfect in all respect !

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate family) said, “I leave amongst you TWO most weighty things; one is the BOOK OF ALLAH, THE HOLY QUR’AN AND THE OTHER IS MY AHLUL-BAYT?

If the Holy Qur’an was not readily in the book form, then how come this is mentioned in the quran and in the hadith? And so then the question arises? why did muslims scramble to put together different "mushufs", after the Prophet's death and after many scribes had already died and then call it the Book? Are the TEXTS Perscpicous? No ! and so what do you want Allah to protect? HIS own BOOK which HE had given to the Prophet? or the one compiled by man?

Are the scattered chapters in the hearts and minds of people the same as a readily compiled Book ?

And so logically which one would Allah protect? HIS own Quran from which the Prophet was teaching? or the man made compilations done after his death?

Amir ul Momineen frequently said:

"By Allah,no verse has been sent down without my knowing about whom or what it was revealed and where it was revealed. "Ask me about the Book of Allah,for by Allah,there is no verse about which I do not know whether it was sent down at night or during the day,or whether it was revealed on a plain or in a mountain....."

[18:57] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing.

Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears.

Thus they can never ever be guided.

God sent only one Quran - the original - as revealed and NOT as compiled and put together by the scribes and companions ....

Al-Baqir said: There is absolutely no one from the people that can say he has the entirety of the Qur'an as it was revealed by Allah except a liar; the one only who possesses it all and has preserved it as it was revealed by Allah was Ali ibn Abi Talib, and the Imams after him. (As-Saffar al-Qummi Basa'ir 4:193)

Now this is the Quran Allah has promised to protect - not the man made texts put together by the scribes, after the death of the Prophet SAW.

STARTLING CONFESSIONS
November 29th, 2007
STARTLING CONFESSIONS

Let us examine the personal confessions of some of the most ancient and foremost “Imams” (’Canonical’ authorities) who narrated History, Hadith (Prophetic sayings and traditions), laid down Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) and did Tafseer (explanation) of the Quran.

IMAM RAZI’S HORRIBLE CONFESSION:

Most Muslims have heard of one of the most ancient and famous Tafseer-e-Kabeer (The Great Exposition of the Quran) by Imam Fakhruddin Razi.

This Tafseer is one of the tops being followed by our Mullahs till this day.

After writing his 300 volumes, ‘the great and authoritative’ Imam confesses: “All my intellectual and supposedly logical statements in the explanation of the Quran turned out to be lame.

All the explanations of the Quran done by the so-called Imams (Tabari, Zamakhshari, Ibne Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim etc) are misguided and misleading. All of us were the tools of Satan.

Our souls were polluted by our physical desires. All our endeavors and works of this world promise to bring upon us nothing but eternal humiliation, torture and doom.”

Hadith-Ul-Quran by Allama Inayatullah Khan Al-Mashriqi, 1954 edition, Pg 190.

IMAM TABARI’S STRANGE CONFESSION:

“I am writing this book as I hear from the narrators. If anything sounds absurd, I should not be blamed or held accountable. The responsibility of all blunders rests squarely on the shoulders of those who have narrated these stories to me.”

So, Tabari wrote nothing but hearsay. Mazhabi Dastanain Aur Un Ki Haqeeqat by Allama Habib-ur-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalwi, Ar-Rahman Publishing Trust, Karachi


Tareekhil Umam Wal Mulook (The History of Nations and Kings) popularly called “The Mother of All Histories” is the first ever “History of Islam” written by ‘Imam’ Tabari (839-923 CE) at the junction of the third and fourth century AH. He died in 310 AH, three centuries after the exalted Prophet.

What were his sources? Not a scrap of paper! “He told me this who heard it from him who heard it from her and she heard it from so and so,” and so on.

By compiling his 13 Volume History and his 30 Volume Exposition of the Quran under royal patronage, Tabari became the Super Imam. The later historians until this day have persisted in following the trails of the Super Imam. Imam Zahri Wa Imam Tabari, Tasweer Ka Doosra Rukh by Muhaddith-ul-‘Asr Jaame’-ul-‘Uloom Hazrat Allama Tamanna Imadi Phulwari, Ar-Rahman Publishing Trust, Karachi

IMAM IBN KATHIR’S CONFESSION: “Had Ibn Jareer Tabari not recorded the strange reports, I would never have done so.” Tafseer Ibn Katheer, Khilaafat-e-Mu’awiya-o-Yazeed, Mahmood Ahmed Abbasi

IMAM AHMAD BIN HANBAL’S CHASTISEMENT: The sincere Islamic scholar of the 20th century, Allama Shibli Na’mani, on page 27 Vol 1 of his Seeratun Nabi has given a startling quote of the ancient Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), “Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghazi, Malahem and Tafseer.” (The Prophet’s Battles, Dreams & Prophecies and Expositions of the Quran.)

HISTORIAN IBN KHALDOON’S THRASHING: “The Muslim historians have made a mockery of history by filling it with fabrications and senseless lies.”

Muqaddama Tareekh Ibn Khaldoon. [Ibn Khaldoon then himself makes a mockery of history. Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal points out that there is nothing worth reading in his book but the preface, Muqaddama. Dr. Shabbir respectfully agrees.]

SHAH ABDUL AZIZ’S CRITIQUE: “Several pages of Ibn Khaldoon’s History have been deliberately removed since the earliest times.

SHAH WALIULLAH’S CHASTISEMENT: “Imam Jalaluddin Sayyuti’s Tarikh-ul-Khulafa is the prime example of how our Historians, Muhaddithin and Mufassirin, each have played like Haatib-il-Lail (The man who collects firewood at night not knowing which piece is good and which one is bad).” Hujjatullah-il-Baalighah

WHO AUTHORISED muslims TO INTRODUCE THESE INNOVATIONS IN ISLAM?

THE RELIGION OF ISLAM WAS ALREADY COMPLETED BY ALLAH HIMSELF BY THE TIME THE HOLY PROPHET (peace and blessings be upon him and his immaculate progeny) PARTED THIS WORLD.

33:36 “IT IS NOT FOR TRUE BELIEVERS - MEN OR WOMEN - TO TAKE THEIR CHOICE IN THEIR AFFAIRS IF ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE DECREE OTHERWISE. HE THAT DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE STRAYS FAR INDEED.”

49:1-2 “BELIEVERS DO NOT BE FORWARD IN THE PRESENCE OF ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE. HAVE FEAR OF ALLAH: HE HEARS ALL AND KNOWS ALL. BELIEVERS DO NOT RAISE YOUR VOICE ABOVE THE VOICE OF THE PROPHET, NOR SPEAK ALOUD WHEN SPEAKING TO HIM AS YOU DO TO ONE ANOTHER. LEST YOUR LABOUR SHOULD COME TO NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE.”

59:8 “WHATEVER THE PROPHET GIVES YOU, ACCEPT IT AND WHATEVER HE FORBIDS YOU FORBEAR IT.”

59:8 “WHATEVER THE PROPHET GIVES YOU, ACCEPT IT AND WHATEVER HE FORBIDS YOU FORBEAR IT.”

If the Messenger of Allah could not and would not alter anything, how could the muslims interfere and introduce bida’h? And so what sort of Muslims are we to accept such innovations, to begin with?

Didn’t the Holy Prophet (pbuhf) say, “whatever I Muhammad has made halal will remain halal up to the Day of Judgement and whatever I Muhammad has made haram will remain haram up to the Day of Judgement”?

If so, then on whose authority are we Muslims following the innovations and bid’ats ?

THE ABOVE MENTIONED VERSES ARE CLEAR CUT AND THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANY INNOVATIONS OR BID’AH IN ISLAM.

“This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favour to you. I have chosen Islam to be your faith.” 5:3.

If Allah claims to have completed His Deen, then why and for what are all these changes after the departure of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate progeny) accepted by the muslims?

How can one claim to be following the Deen of Muhammad (pbuh) if they allow such manipulation ?

This would then mean drifting away from the original Islam as preached by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate progeny) in the light of the Holy Qur’an and as per commandment of Allah.

Do you have more questions? do please ask if you require further clarifications.
The verses which you refer to, they seem to refer to a broader and more general meaning.

As Shams had said above, the Imam interprets the Qur'an. However, what Qur'an does he interpret if there is no book? It is very clear that our Prophet (peace be upon him) had specifically ordered scribes to write down the verses of the Qur'an as they were being revealed. Would this not have been pointless if he knew they would be corrupted?

98:1. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,- 2. An apostle from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:

As for the posting in regards to the scholars of tafsir, please refer to my above post, where I have listed verses with respect to the foundation of Qur'an being unambiguous.

"It has been said that the Qur’an is its own best commentary . As we proceed with the study of the Book, we find how true this is. A careful comparison and collation of passages from the Qur’an removes many difficulties. Use a good concordance, such as the one I have named among the Works of reference, and you will find that one passage throws light on another." The Holy Qur’an- Translation and commentary by A. Yusuf Ali, pp xi

"The Qur’an must not be viewed as a compilation of individual injunctions and exhortations but as one integral whole: that is, as an exposition of an ethical doctrine in which every verse and sentence has an intimate bearing on other verses and sentences, all of them clarifying and amplifying one another. Consequently, its real meaning can be grasped only if we correlate every one of its statements with what has been stated elsewhere in its passages, and try to explain its ideas by means of frequent cross references, always subordinating the particular to the general and the incidental to the intrinsic. Whenever this rule is faithfully followed, we realize that the Qur’an is - in the words of Muhammed Abduh- "its own best commentary". The Message of THE QUR-AN by Muhammad Asad, pp vii

A person should approach the Book for the purpose of sincerely seeking divine guidance, and should keep his mind receptive and free from all pre conceived notions. If this is done, the meaning of the Qur’an will be clearly apparent to him and he will discover that the Qur’an is a simple, clear and self explanatory Book, kept independent from all sorts of traditions for its exegesis.

http://freequranonline.org/Tafsir-Quran



For me personally, the hadiths are a very complex and cannot be relied upon if they do not have the Qur'an to corroborate it.

There are many hadiths which contradict the Quran, each other, or at least state something else.


Alleged contradictions in Hadith

"Haaroon al-Rasheed arrested a heretic and ordered that he be executed. The heretic said, "Why are you executing me?" Haaroon al-Rasheed said, "To rid the people of you." The heretic said: "O Ameer al-Mu'mineen, what will you do about the thousand ahaadeeth - according to one report, four thousand ahaadeeth - which I have fabricated and spread among you, in which I made what is halaal haraam and what is haraam halaal, of which the Prophet uttered not one letter?" Haaroon al-Rasheed said to him: "What will you do, O enemy of Allaah, about Abu Ishaaq al-Fazaari and 'Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak? They will go through them and sift them letter by letter."
—al-Dhahabi[24]
While the Quran says that adultery must be punished with whipping,[25] the Hadith has abrogated this and said instead that married adulterers should be stoned to death.[26]
A Hadith recorded by Bukhari and Abu Daoud suggests that drawing blood violates one's fast, while another Hadith recorded by the same scholars suggests Muhammad had his blood drawn while fasting.[27]
Hanbal recorded a Hadith where the Prophet forbid the people to face towards the Qibla while relieving themselves, while Bukhari recorded the opposite, that Muhammad had his own toilet point towards the Qiblah in order to discourage superstition.[27]
Ibn Kutayba wrote a book dealing solely with contradictory Hadith, such as one in which Muhammad kissed his wives while fasting, and one in which he answered a query by stating that kissing one's wife violated a fast.[27]
Although Bukhari records a Hadith where Muhammad urinated while standing, Sunneni Nesei stated that "if someone says to you that the Prophet urinated standing, do not believe him".[27]
Abu Daoud recorded two Hadith, one in which the speaker says he saw the Prophet standing and drinking water "like you and me", and another in which he forbids drinking water while standing upright.[27]
Hadith states that Muhammad had forbidden people to perform marriages, or seek spouses, while performing the Hajj. Yet he is believed to have married Maymuna bint al-Harith while performing the pilgrimage himself.[27]
While Tahzibut Tazhib records that Muhammad ordered his followers to cover their calves as they were a part of their genitals, Hanbal recorded that Omar and Muhammad were both reclining with their calves uncovered when Abu Bakr requested entrance to their domicile, and was granted access and that they did not cover themselves.[27]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... _in_Hadith


4:82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
kmaherali wrote:The Message can be interpreted as the Guidance manifested in the living Imam who is protected from corruption.
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message al-zikr; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)

69. We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:

The Qur'an is synonymous to the "Message"
[/i]
ShamsB
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:20 pm

Post by ShamsB »

arshad1988 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:March 1975 L'expansion.

Q. What is your role as head of the community?

A. It is two-fold. The Imam must direct Ismailis on the practice of their religion and constantly interpret the Qur'an for them according to our theology. On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible. This is fundamental to our religion - perhaps something similar is found in the case of the Pope in the Catholic religion.

That is not all. The Imam is at all times responsible for aid and assistance to Ismailis in their material life. Not directly, but in the sense that he helps them to follow the necessary institutions for their material progress.


So - Only the Imam can interpret the Quran - according to our theology - and that authority is absolute - we have Farmans of the Imam stating that the Quran is missing verses; the Quran is missing verses - for an Ismaili that should be the end of the discussion.


Shams
15:1. A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.

12:1. A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

27:1. These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;

24:34. We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear ((Allah)).

These are just a few verses. Hazar Imam says that he interprets the message, he does not deliver it. Hence, if there are things which are unambiguous, which are the foundation of the Book, then it is safe to approach it. Otherwise, approach the Imam.

Sept 6 1979 BBC Interview by Michael Charlton.


MC: But was that itself a cloak and a mask for, in fact, war between nation-states in, in what was at this time the last empire, wasn't it, of the ancient world, the great Arab empire?

HH: I think that is not correct, in the sense that the Ismaili movement did not begin as a political movement. What may have begun, as a partial issue, and it's extremely difficult to establish, because nothing was written at the time; the Koran itself was memorized. But at the time of the death of the Prophet, what was the ingredient of the division between the Shia and the Sunni is not really entirely clear, because all we have today is literature which is based on repetition of what was said, the Hadith in a sense.


So if nothing was written - then how did the Prophet have scribes write things down?...

Shams
nagib
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:07 am

Post by nagib »

ShamsB wrote: that the Quran is missing verses; the Quran is missing verses - for an Ismaili that should be the end of the discussion.

Shams

Lets be more specific. Obviously The Quran can not miss verses, it is perfect. In the same sense that the talking Quran is also perfect.

But compilations by humans is what is referred to as been incomplete. Usually this compilation which some call Quran also is called Mushaf to seperate people's compilation from Gods compilation. Gods Quran is eternally preserved in the spiritual world.

Lets just remember that our beloved Prophet Himself [PBUH] never accepted to compile the verses into a Book during his lifetime.

And lets also remind pious and devoted Muslims, which we all are, that when Allah declared to mankind through His Holy Prophet [PBUH] that - Today I have perfected your religion - the religion was perfected and there was no written compilation at that time.

And as a practical boundary, lets keep the Quran discussion in the Quran subject so it does not get scattered all around and we can avoid repetitions.
Valani
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:33 am
Location: Karachi, Pakistan

Post by Valani »

I know i am deviating from the subject, but feel perhaps this is the forum where I should seek clarification/ guidance.

My question is mainly o­n "kmeheraly" statement somewhere in this threat regarding "U lil Amr i Minkum" . The popular translation of this phrase is "Those who are charged with authority among you" (i guess the same is the translation in Dua books as well). I have a few questions regarding this:

1) This phrase speaks of "plural" and not singular that gives an indication that there can be more then o­ne U lil Amr at a time. If Allah wanted to refer to all the Imams who were to come afterwards and meant by o­nly o­ne person at a time perhaps here he would have used word for single person which would perhaps translate “the o­ne who is charged with authority among you". So the question is what our Ismaili's stance o­n this that is it possible to have another person charged with authority apart from the Imam at a time? Remember Imam SMS has praised Ghazali and Roomi and Bayazid Bastami in his farmans (they surely were not Ismailis but Imam praised them as knowledgeable persons and not ignorant) and he guided us to read them and learn.

2) The verse proceeding the above verse of Quran translates as: "O ye, who believe! obey Allah and obey the messenger and those who hold authority from amongst you; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end ". My questions regarding this are as follows:

a) Are the believers given an option to have a difference of openion (dispute) concerning any matter with the U lil Amr or we Ismailis are bound to accept whatever the U lil Amr says and follow it and disregard this Quranic verse.

b) If we do not disregard this Quranic verse: Allah asks people to refer to Allah and the messenger if they have a difference of opinion (dispute) concerning any matter with the U lil Amr and we have to refer it to Allah, do we have anything else then Quran to refer to Allah. Likewise if we have to refer to the messenger do we have anything else then Hadith or Seerat (commonly known as Sunnah)

c) If we disregard this Quranic verse: do we know which Quranic verse to disregard and which to accept (anything mentioned in Farmans of SMS or HH) so we are clearer o­n subject. Or do we disregard the entire Quran.

d) Have not Imams in the past and also present been saying that they are the interpreters of Quran. Which Quran is this if not the o­ne present in written form. You would remember that HH in his speech in a Seerat Conference held in Pakistan some 2/3 decades ago has declared Quran as the biggest or o­nly miracle of Muhammad (SAW) (i do not remember exact words).

I know my questions have been pretty irrelevant to the subject but it is important for me to get a clear view o­n these questions because they keep o­n disturbing me. I would especially like Kmeheraly to respond to these queries may be as a private message at (svalani@hotmail.com) if needed. All other Ismaili brothers are also requested to through some light o­n these issues.

I wish you all best regards and will be patient to see the answer/clarification
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

WHOEVER I AM HIS MASTER, ALI IS HIS MASTER (repeating three times).

O God! Love those who love him. Be hostile to those who are hostile to
him. Help those who help him. Forsake those who forsake him. And keep
the truth with him wherever he turns (i.e., make him the axis of the
truth).

Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother, my executor (Wasi), and my
successor (Caliph), and the leader (Imam) after me.

His position to me is the same as the position of Haroon (Aaron) to Moses, except that there shall be no prophet after me.

He is your master after Allah and
His Messenger.

O Folk! Verily Allah has appointed him to be your Imam and ruler.
Obedience of him is obligatory for all Immigrants (Muhajirin) and
Helpers (Ansar) and those who follow them in virtue, and on the
dwellers of the cities and the nomads, the Arabs and the non-Arabs,
the freeman and the slave, the young and the old, the great and the
small, the white and the black.

His commands should be obeyed, and his word is binding and his order
is obligatory on everyone who believes in one God.

Cursed is the man who disobeys him, and blessed is the one who follows him, and he who believes in him is a true believer.

His WILAYAH (belief in his
mastery) has been made obligatory by Allah, the Powerful, the
Exalted.

O Folk! Study the Quran. Reflect on its clear verses and do not
presume the meaning of the ambiguous verses.

For, by Allah, nobody can
properly explain them to you its warnings and its meanings except me
and this man (i.e., Ali) whose hand I am lifting up in front of
myself.


O People! This is the last time that I shall stand in this assembly.
Therefore listen to me and obey and submit to the command of Lord.
Verily Allah, He is your Lord and God. After Him, His prophet,
Muhammad who is addressing you, is your master.

Then after me, this
Ali is your master and your leader (Imam) according to Allahs
command.

Then after him leadership will continue through some selected
individuals in my descendants till the day you meet Allah and His
Prophet.

Behold! Certainly you shall meet your Lord and He will ask you about
your deeds.

Beware! Do not become infidels after me by striking the
necks of one another.

Lo! It is incumbent upon those who are present
to inform what I said to those who are absent for perhaps the informed
one might comprehend it (understand it) better than some of the
present audience.

Behold! Havent I conveyed the Message of Allah to
you? Behold! Havent I conveyed the Message of Allah to you? People
replied: Yes. The Prophet said: O God! Bear witness.

References:
- Aalam al-Wara, pp 132-133
- Tadhkirat al-Khawas al-Ummah, Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 28-33
- al-Sirah al-Halabiyyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p273
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Safinah Tradition :

The virtues of the "ahl al-bayt" have been amply mentioned in the authenticated and Tawatur traditions narratted by both Shia and Sunni `Ulama.

Using different words and phrases, these traditions have asked people to love the "ahl al-bayt" and follow their teachings.

For instance, the Holy Prophet (s) has compared his "ahl al-bayt" to Noah's ark.

Whoever loves and follows them will attain salvation and whoever violates their sanctity will drown.

The servant of the Holy Prophet (s), Anas bin Malik (d 93 A.H.), has been related as quoting the Prophet (s) as saying:

"The example of the members of my Household among you is like the example of Noah's ark. Whoever boards it will attain salvation and whoever does not board it will drown."

This tradition has been narrated by Hakim Nishaburi in "Al-Mustadrak" 343/2; Khatib in "Tarikh Baghdad" 91/12; and other great recorders of traditions ("al-Ghadir" 300/2-301).

In this regard, Imam Shafii' has said the following:

"When I saw different schools of thought directing people toward the seas of ignorance and deviation, I boarded the ark of salvation in the Name of Allah.

This arc is verily crystallized in the "ahl al-bayt" of the Seal of the Prophets, Mustafa (s)."

Among very famous traditions in which the "ahl al-bayt" have been resembled to the ark of salvation, reference can be made to the famous "Ishbah tradition" which has been narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) by Abu Hurayrah `Abdul-Rahman bin Sakhar (d 59 A.H.).

"When Almighty Allah created Adam, the father of mankind, and breathed His spirit into him, Adam looked to the right hand side of the empyrean.

There he saw five figures in the form of silhouettes engaged in prostration and genuflection. He asked: "God, have you created any one from the dust before me?" God replied: "No."

Adam said, "So who are these five figures which I see resembling my own shape and form?" God answered, "These are five of your offspring.

If it were not for them, I would have not created you.

They are five people whose names are derived from My Own. If it were not for them, I would have not created paradise or hell, the heavens and the earth, the skies and the lands, the angels, the human beings and the jinn.

I am "Mahmud" and this Muhammad. I am "Aala" and this is `Ali. I am "Fatir" and this is Fatimah, I am "Ihsan" and this is Hasan. I am "Muhsin" and this is Husayn.

By My Glory, whoever bears even an atom's weight of grudge against them will be cast into hell.

O Adam! They are My chosen ones. For them, I will save or cast others to perdition. If you want anything from me, you should resort to these five people."

The Holy Prophet (s) said: "We serve as the ark of salvation. Whoever holds fast to this ark will reach salvation and whoever deviates from it will be cast into perdition. Whoever wants Allah to grant him something should resort to the `ahl al-bayt'."

This tradition has been narrated by Shaykh al-Islam Hamu'i in the first chapter of "Fara'id al-Samtayn" and Khatib Khwarazmi in "Manaqib" 252 (c.f. "al-Ghadir" 300/2). The Ashbah tradition has been narrated by `Allamah Amini in another part of the al-Ghadir" (301/7) quoting Abul-Fath Muhammad bin `Ali al-Natanzi in "Alfaz".

Moreover if you go through the teachings of the Ismaili Imams, one will easily notice that every word they speak is full of wisdom and if one listens to their teachings, he will sit in wonderment because of their spiritual profundity...and so a person's worth is judged NOT by how he looks or wears but by what he says...hope this helps you Valani
arshad1988
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:02 am
Contact:

Post by arshad1988 »

nagib wrote:
ShamsB wrote: that the Quran is missing verses; the Quran is missing verses - for an Ismaili that should be the end of the discussion.

Shams

Lets be more specific. Obviously The Quran can not miss verses, it is perfect. In the same sense that the talking Quran is also perfect.

But compilations by humans is what is referred to as been incomplete. Usually this compilation which some call Quran also is called Mushaf to seperate people's compilation from Gods compilation. Gods Quran is eternally preserved in the spiritual world.

Lets just remember that our beloved Prophet Himself [PBUH] never accepted to compile the verses into a Book during his lifetime.

And lets also remind pious and devoted Muslims, which we all are, that when Allah declared to mankind through His Holy Prophet [PBUH] that - Today I have perfected your religion - the religion was perfected and there was no written compilation at that time.

And as a practical boundary, lets keep the Quran discussion in the Quran subject so it does not get scattered all around and we can avoid repetitions.
There currently exist three different narrations of the farewell pilgrimmage, which the Prophet (pbuh) told the people if they held onto them/it, one would never go astray:

1) Qur'an and Ahl-al-Bayt
2) Qur'an and Sunnah
3) Qur'an

The common denominating factor between all three is the Qur'an, hence my belief that Qur'an which we have today cannot be corrupted.

Which Qur'an was he telling people to hold on to?

If he was referring to the one memorized in the minds and hearts, or the one inscribed in the heavenly plane, how would the Qur'an be passed onto future generations for them to hold onto ? How can you hold onto the Qur'an if it became 'corrupted'? It HAS to be preserved.

Remember, the Prophet(pbuh) made two different distinctions between the Qur'an and the Ahl-al-Bayt. They both had to exist separately during his lifetime for him to refer to them. He would not refer to the Qur'an if the people did not have access to it, otherwise he would not have told them to hold strongly to it.
nagib
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:07 am

Post by nagib »

To which book is the expression People of the Book refering to?

The Book you are referring to did not exist and was not compiled.

Does it not refer to the eternal Quran that is with God?

When this expression was used, was the present compilation in existence?

Are Christian and Jews believing in any such book compiled after the death of our Prophet [PBUH]

Are they not also People of the Book?

Questions to ponder.
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