Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Were the avatars infallible?
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

Were the avatars infallible?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Pre-Adam
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
amardeep



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:22 am    Post subject: Were the avatars infallible? Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.

Having read a few books at the local library on the life of Krishna and an analysis of the earliest puranas i read that Sri Krishna had some incidents with the gopis which would be classified as adultary or zina.

What is the view on these incidents at the river where Krishna is intimate with the milk maids and taking their clothes and hiding them in order for them to appear nude infront of him? Is it possible to these avatars to commit sins and be subjected to lust ego etc.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16845

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatars are by definition the most perfect and pure beings and in this respect they have the constant joy and bliss of God within them at all times. Why would an enlightened person enjoying this happiness need to indulge in worldly lusts which are sinful? It is logically untenable. In a verse of the Ginan: Kal pat Jal Pat, it is stated:

Nisi jal hove to kuchh kaar na aave meaning ‘the one who is as pure as water is not affected by the influence of time”.

Hence a perfect being and a Murshid will never indulge in lower lustful activities especially amongst his murids.

My take on the stories alluded to about Lord Krishna is that they are false and fabricated. It is difficult to prove such stories and logically they are untenable. Throughout history there have always been individuals who have scandalized/ridiculed faiths and this could just be one of them. If indeed Lord Krishna was such a hypocrite, then his teachings would not have guided mankind for millenniums!
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
amardeep



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the explanations given by hindu pundits hundreds of years ago is that avatars are not harmed by sin, nor can they approach it. The same way that fire can burn unclean things, and still remain pure,- the same way avatars can indulge in what we will call sinfull activities without it being sins.

The history of Krishna and the gopis(I think radha was also one such gopi) are mentioned in the puranas, in Guru Gobind Singhs commentary and translation of Chaubis avatar aswell as in hindu poetry actually sung by Nusrat fateh ali khan in his qawalies (Saso ki mala pe comes to mind).
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
amardeep



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

........
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Were the avatars infallibe? Reply with quote

amardeep wrote:
Ya Ali Madad.

Having read a few books at the local library on the life of Krishna and an analysis of the earliest puranas i read that Sri Krishna had some incidents with the gopis which would be classified as adultary or zina.

What is the view on these incidents at the river where Krishna is intimate with the milk maids and taking their clothes and hiding them in order for them to appear nude infront of him? Is it possible to these avatars to commit sins and be subjected to lust ego etc.


It is ignorance to even think that they commited any sin. When Krishna asked Arjun to do battle with korvas, at first he thought it to be great sin but later when he got to know the divinity of Krishna, he found that Krishna is the only one who is aware of all secrets of dharma and adharma.

The incidents you have mentioned seems to be taken from anti hindu source and hence are written in quite negative way. One might take Krishna stealing butter and doing raas leela in negative way. To understand Krishna and His mysteries and secrets is not easy thing.

If you want good information and want to know answer of your questions, I would suggest you to watch Shri Krishna and earlier episodes of Mahabharat by Ramanand Sagar.
You may watch "Jai Shree Krishna" by Meenakshi Sagar on colors tv, which gives the most comprehensive details of leela of bal krishna.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
amardeep



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what lesson is there to be learned from the leela at the river? It can be found in most of the puranas and Krishna was intimate with the gopis here.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5367

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Avatars been the Imam of that Time, it will always be a problem to weight their intelligence with ours, especially when interpreting event of a period that we do not know much about.

In one interpretation, the Gopis represent the souls that has to abandon the attachment of the material world in order to see Krishna, the clothes representing the physical and material aspect of the person's life.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
amardeep



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krishna stealing the clothes of the gopis bathing, is found here (the second sawiya)

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=696&english=t&id=91993

The incident of Krishna and the Gopis being intimate is found here


http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=768&english=t&id=94999


It is from one of the ancient Puranas though the text is called chaubis avatar
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amardeep wrote:
Krishna stealing the clothes of the gopis bathing, is found here (the second sawiya)

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=696&english=t&id=91993

The incident of Krishna and the Gopis being intimate is found here


http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=768&english=t&id=94999


It is from one of the ancient Puranas though the text is called chaubis avatar


The links you have given are not of ancient Puranas but of Dasam Granth Sahib,by Guru Gobind Singh. But I do agree that it is mentioned in ancient scriptures as well.
Admin has given a very good iterpretation of the incident "In one interpretation, the Gopis represent the souls that has to abandon the attachment of the material world in order to see Krishna, the clothes representing the physical and material aspect of the person's life."
The relation between Krishna and gopis was not lustful but it was spiritual, innocent and pure love.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following incident was shown on 13-02-09 on "Jai Shree Krishna" on colors channel in following manner:

It was early morning. Gopis were going towards river to complete their vrat, which they had kept for Krishna. They were glad that inspite of so many obstacles (which were due to Krishna himself) they were able to reach there.
Gopis kept their belongings there and started taking. One gopi said: Krishna was creating hurdles in our way to test our devotion and love. Another asked her: So what has he realised?
First one replied: That our devotion and love is pure
Krishna (who was small kid) was looking at them and smiling.
Gopi named Ganga said Love is another form of devotion(Bhakti). Devotion is faith and faith is dedication, and dedication is the other name of devotion. We have Shraddha and vishwas and Prem on our Krishna.
Gopis were talking about Krishna. One of them said Krishna is our bhagwan. When he smiles it seems as God is smiling and when he gets upset with us it seems that our life has got upset with us. If he plays any pranks with us it seems that God is very happy with us. When Krishna breaks our pots and butter and curd falls down on us, it seems as God is showering His blessings on us. When He plays his flute it seems that our body and mind are getting purified with the divine music.
All the gopis went in river to complete their vrat. They take bath and sing prayer of Katyani maa "Krishna milan ka var de hum ko katyaani maa"
One of the gopi said if we see Krishna now that will mean that our vrat is successful now............(gopis were talking abt Krishna and bal krishna came climbed on branch of a tree and started playing his flute)
Gopis were happy to see Krishna there but then one of the gopi said we can hear flute later, first of all we need to get our clothes otherwise if some one will see us then we will be no where.
They asked Krishna to stop his flute and Krishna stopped. One f them said: What mischief are you doing now?
Krishna: What am I doing? Its all you, who keep complaining to my mother and here now I am playing flute to enjoy and you are stopping me from this enjoyment.
One gopi: Oh so you are really innocent. Why dont you say that you love teasing us.
Krishna: What do you want?
one gopi: We are taking bath
Krishna: ok then do it. I am not saying you or bothering you.
Gopi: Krishna has become very stubborn now. Let us complain her mother.
Krishna: Oh you want to do my complain. ok do whatever you want.
He started playing his flute.
One of them said: where are our clothes? Oh that must be taken by Krishna...makhan chor Krishna now you have become stealer of clothes also !
Krishna smilingly said I have not taken your clothes nor I do have. They are lying on tree. Come and do take it.
One of the gopi: How can we come?
Krishna: Why cant you come?
Gopis were feeling shy
Gopi: we are not wearing any dress how can we come to take our dresses
Krishna: Oh ! So you are taking bath in river without clothes. Now I understood whole matter. Dont you know that to take bath in river without dress is a big sin.
Gopi: Then give us mukti from this paap (sin)
Krishna: How?
Gopi (feeling shy) By returning our clothes to us.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

continuation from my previous post

Krishna: Will you now do my complaing?
They said: No
Krishna: Will you now get angry on me?
They said: No
Krishna: will you give me butter and curd?
Gopis: No
Krishna: What??
Gopis: We will give icon_lol.gif
Krishna teases them ok I am going. My mother would be waiting for me.
Gopis requested him: Please done leave us in this condition.
Gopi: Krishna you are ours isnt it?
Krishna replies cutely: NO
Gopi: When will you become ours?
Krishna: When you will complete your vrat?
Gopis: How can we complete our vrat without dresses?
Krishna replies: who told you that you need the clothes to complete your vrat? If your dhyaan or thinking will be clothes then when will you think about bhagwan? You are talking about dress but look you are already dressed.
Krishna explained them that the devotee should not have any kind of wordly desires, the clothes are also hindrance.
Krishna showed the Gopis Paramdhaam, they were surprised seeing themselve in Paramdhaam and Krishna standing in front of them, holding mace, chakra. He told that one has to detach from wordly pleasures and if one's mind is in wordly desires, how can he get chance to see paramdhaam? Krishna explained them :
You are feeling shy because your mind is in this world, in clothes, once you renounce every thing to me, you will get me. Yogis, saints detach all worldly desires.
Gopis folded thier hands and it was shown Krishna merging in them individually.
You people are shy cos ur mind is in world, in clothes, once you renounce everything and come to me, it is a Poorna Samarpan. One who are yogis, saints, they consider these cloths as hindrance between God and them..they detach themself desires and always think about me..

Gopis folds their hands and Krishna is shown merging in the individually..Gopis now see themselves in river again..
Krishna said: Now take your clothes..he returned them clothes and went smilingly...gopis said them ruk jao..He gave them blessing and went away. All gopis were glad.

An interesting converstation was shown between Narad and Vishnu on this incident but I am not posting it because I am unable to translate most of the words in English.

If it is not against the rules of ismali.net, then I will like to post the video link, so those who are interested may watch the video online or download it.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5367

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No video link please [except if you are pointing to a video of the Imam but also you can not point to any site where they have advertisements or if that site is selling anything]
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats ok
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:09 am    Post subject: Lord Krishna & Gopies Reply with quote

First of all you must to know who were those Gopies? they all were "Rishi" a Hindu Holy man in their past life and they all prayed to the Loard that Loard give them a life as a Gopies so they can live with the Lord (Krishna)on earth as well (MRUTYULOK) and I belive there were around 1600 Gopies , Lord Krishna was 8th Vishnu Avatar at that time and he was aware about gopies past life as a Rishi now knowing this fact how can Krishna or anybody act in unmannerly. My personal opinion is this kind lust wast pure blameless act and not the adultery act?
I also sugest you to watch "Shri Krishna" TV serial by Rmanand Sagar and it may give you perfect answer of your query.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Pre-Adam All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400