Posted: Fri May 09, 2003 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: 50,000 ADAMS
shamsu wrote:
Imam SMS farman has stated that " Pacchas hajar Adam thai gaya..."
(50,000 Adams have passed)
Shamsu are you sure what you say is correct and that you are not rumor mongering ? The farmans of Sultan Mohammad Shah appears in books Kalame Imam E Mubin - Part I & II and they have serial numbers.
Which is the serial number of the farman please ?
You are aware that on Pre-Adam postings you have, on many many occassions, quoted false things and termed them as farmans.
Posted: Sat May 10, 2003 3:03 am Post subject: Re: 50,000 ADAMS
Anonymous wrote:
shamsu wrote:
Imam SMS farman has stated that " Pacchas hajar Adam thai gaya..."
(50,000 Adams have passed)
Shamsu are you sure what you say is correct and that you are not rumor mongering ? The farmans of Sultan Mohammad Shah appears in books Kalame Imam E Mubin - Part I & II and they have serial numbers.
Which is the serial number of the farman please ?
You are aware that on Pre-Adam postings you have, on many many occassions, quoted false things and termed them as farmans.
The serial number of the farman please.
SHAMSU - I AM STILL WAITING FOR THE SERIAL NUMBER OF THE FARMAN. IF YOU DO NOT GIVE THE SERIAL NUMBER WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME THEN IT DEMONSTRATES AND PROVES YOU HAVE TOLD A LIE ABOUT THE FARMAN.[/b]
Posted: Sat May 10, 2003 5:15 pm Post subject: Farman
Our Ginans have mentioned
"Momin dil Quran"
"Aql khule ta ku Farman Hazir"
Take a deep breath and ask your mowla in your heart if he said there were 50,000 Adams
If you fit the description above you should have a clear answer you will be certain about.
Kalame Imame Mubeen is the best collection of 48th Imams farmans but not the most comprehensive one. I have read a Baitul Khayal Khangi Farman book that has over a 110 pages. There is also another 47th Imam Farman Book that has 48th Imam Farmans too. Then there are private Mandali Farmans that are almost impossible to get.
I do not remember where or when I heard this farman.
I write this with clear awareness of the prescence of Ya Aly with me and with you as you read this.
Posted: Sat May 10, 2003 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Farman
shamsu wrote:
Our Ginans have mentioned
"Momin dil Quran"
"Aql khule ta ku Farman Hazir"
Take a deep breath and ask your mowla in your heart if he said there were 50,000 Adams
If you fit the description above you should have a clear answer you will be certain about.
Kalame Imame Mubeen is the best collection of 48th Imams farmans but not the most comprehensive one. I have read a Baitul Khayal Khangi Farman book that has over a 110 pages. There is also another 47th Imam Farman Book that has 48th Imam Farmans too. Then there are private Mandali Farmans that are almost impossible to get.
I do not remember where or when I heard this farman.
I write this with clear awareness of the prescence of Ya Aly with me and with you as you read this.
Serial Number I do not have at this time.
Wish you all the best with your Quest.
Ya Aly Madad
Shamsu,
In earlier posting under Pre-Adam/Soul or Spirit you gave a farman number so where is the question of your not having the time. You are refusing to give a farman number because there is no such farman. You said things and termed is as Sultan Mohd Shah's farman and this is wrong - Stop your rumor mongering business.
Not only that - you divert to Ginans and mention:
"Momin dil Quran"
"Aql khule ta ku Farman Hazir"
Take a deep breath and ask your mowla in your heart if he said there were 50,000 Adams
NOW TELL ME IN THE GINAN QUOTED BY YOU WHERE 50,000 IS MENTIONED. WHY DO YOU PURPOSELY TRANSLATE AND INTERPRETATE THE GINANS WRONGLY. ALSO AQL MEANS INTELLECT NOT BREATHING.
WHY DO YOU PURPOSELY TRANSLATE AND INTERPRETATE THE GINANS WRONGLY ?
SULTAN MOHD SHAH MENTIONED IF YOU USE YOUR INTELLECT YOU WILL KNOW ABOUT THE FARMANS AND GINAN MENTION AQL KHULE TA KU FARMAN HAZIR.
SULTAN MOHD SHAH SAID FARMANS ARE HIS GINANS AND HENCE IF THE TRANSLATION/INTERPRETATION GOES CONTRARY TO THE FARMANS ONE SHOULD KNOW THAT THE TRANSLATION/INTERPRETATION OF THE GINANS DONE IS WRONG.
YOU ALSO MENTION:
Kalame Imame Mubeen is the best collection of 48th Imams farmans but not the most comprehensive one.
----------------
= What do you mean "Best Collection". I have been given to understand that:
The Farman Book Part I covers farmans from 1885 A.D. to 1910 A.D. and the Farman Book Part II covers farmans from 1911 A.D. to 1951 A.D.
You also mention:--> I have read a Baitul Khayal Khangi Farman book that has over a 110 pages.
-----------------
= Baitul Khayal Khangi Farman Book pertains to Baitul Khayal only. Hope this is clear. The subject matter did not pertain to Baitul Khayal.
you also mention : --> There is also another 47th Imam Farman Book that has 48th Imam Farmans too.
------------------------
I have noted that the farman books like Gavere Rehmat, etc. are natually picked up from Kalam E Imam E Mubin taking into account that it covers all farmans from 1885 A.D. to 1951 A.D.
You also mention:-->
Then there are private Mandali Farmans that are almost impossible to get.
---------
Private Mandali's Farmans are for Private Mandlis. The subject matter does not pertain to Private Mandlis.
There is no need to be offensive. This is just a discussion forum, not a place to settle accounts.
As to Farmans of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, there are countless books in gujrati and khojki, maybe 10 thousands pages. There are many farmans and one should not make any comments unless he has read all of them. On the other hand, if any quote is provided, it is important that the source is given.
The aim of this forum is to create thinking and discussions and every person has to learn from the others.
Again, please respect the pluralism of thought in this forum and refrain from offensice language elese as moderator, I will start erasing all of th post on this subject...
There is no need to be offensive. This is just a discussion forum, not a place to settle accounts.
As to Farmans of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, there are countless books in gujrati and khojki, maybe 10 thousands pages. There are many farmans and one should not make any comments unless he has read all of them. On the other hand, if any quote is provided, it is important that the source is given.
The aim of this forum is to create thinking and discussions and every person has to learn from the others.
Again, please respect the pluralism of thought in this forum and refrain from offensice language elese as moderator, I will start erasing all of th post on this subject...
Administrator.
To, the Admin,
The Memoirs of Aga Khan is very clear:
What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to
"reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as others have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions - a small group in Karachi and in India - pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith, the faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity.
--------
So the farmans appearing in Kalame Imame Mubin Part I & II are enough - he has not missed out anything - in which case, as far as religious issues are concerned, the contents of memoirs of aga khan should also be in the farmans in one form or the other. The farmans are enough and hence the question of "one should not make any comments unless he has read all of them" does not arise. If the contents quoted does not match the farmans, then the person is telling a big lie.
Quran does mention about pluralism:
Al-Kafirum - 108
6) Unto you your faith and unto me my faith.
Pluralism of though does not mean "praying" means playing, eating, dancing, running, etc. but "praying" means praying.
Sultan Mohd Shah has, amongst other things, said to his followers to read books (here the 10000 or whatever the numbers of pages and other books come into picture) related to Ismailis - if they do not read the books how will they know what is what about their faith. Also, if anyone does not know then that person should ask the Imam - if the person does not ask the Imam then it is not the fault of the Imam but the fault of the person. You know Quran mention refer it to Allah and Quran also mention that Lord is God. Farman says share the knowledge - nowhere does the farman mention that one should share the confusion, one after another. The faith is quite clear. However, if one does not follow the farman that person will remain in confusion. So those in confusion should start reading the books - including all the farmans of sultan mohd shah and mawlana hazar imam karim al-husseini aga khan. If the farman books are not available by the Tariqah Board start writing letters, one after another, to the Imam of the Time (details about sending letter to hazar imam is given in the book Ismaili Constitution or having a similar name).
If I remember right - sultan mohd shah did say give a fitting reply. Hope I am giving a fitting reply.
In any event I do not consider my reply as settling the scores - just making things clear in good faith.
I just merely want that "person has to learn from the others" and not get confused by others. Someone said something and termed it as a farman when this was not the case. In the ginan someone translated Aql into breathing and he even got some "50000 "and "Adam" into the picture - the Admin will agree this is wrong - tell the truth do not lie and confuse others. I am taking a break from further posting.
Kalame Imame Mubeen are not the only Farman books of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.
There are countless other books with farmans which are not covered in Kalame Imame Mubeen. Many of those books are in Khojki and where never transcribed into Gujrati. One such book was recently transcribed from Khojki to Gujrati from the Farmans compiled by Hasham Bhoga Master's compilation, I think under the title Bahere Rahemat. Many of the farman in that books give complete version of some of the shorter farmans recorded in Kalame Imame Mubeen.
Kalame Imame Mubeen are not the only Farman books of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.
There are countless other books with farmans which are not covered in Kalame Imame Mubeen. Many of those books are in Khojki and where never transcribed into Gujrati. One such book was recently transcribed from Khojki to Gujrati from the Farmans compiled by Hasham Bhoga Master's compilation, I think under the title Bahere Rahemat. Many of the farman in that books give complete version of some of the shorter farmans recorded in Kalame Imame Mubeen.
Admin
-------------------------------------
Thank you for the information - The Gavhere Rahamat contains farmans which are edited and taken from Kalam E Imam E Mubin - in other words, the essence of the farmans is deleted to give unclear picture, which is not right by the people who did it. Not heard of Bahere Rahemat. Now the question is which farman appears in other books that are not covered in the book Kalam E Imam E Mubin?
Kalame Imame Mubeen are not the only Farman books of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.
There are countless other books with farmans which are not covered in Kalame Imame Mubeen. Many of those books are in Khojki and where never transcribed into Gujrati. One such book was recently transcribed from Khojki to Gujrati from the Farmans compiled by Hasham Bhoga Master's compilation, I think under the title Bahere Rahemat. Many of the farman in that books give complete version of some of the shorter farmans recorded in Kalame Imame Mubeen.
Admin
-------------------------------------
Thank you for the information - The Gavhere Rahamat contains farmans which are edited and taken from Kalam E Imam E Mubin - in other words, the essence of the farmans is deleted to give unclear picture, which is not right by the people who did it. Not heard of Bahere Rahemat. Now the question is which farman appears in other books that are not covered in the book Kalam E Imam E Mubin?
WHY NOT MAKE FARMANS AVAILABLE ON THE NET INSTEAD. ACCORDING TO ISMAILI TARIQAH WHEN ONE KNOWS ABOUT THE TRUTH AND THAT PERSON CONCEALS IT - THEN THIS IS A SIN.
ALSO QURAN REVEALS:
Al-Baqara - 2
42) And cover not Truth with falsehood nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
Posted: Thu May 15, 2003 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Farmans on the Internet
Anonymous wrote:
Farmans are available to those Mowla blesses with farmans.
Search and you may find them.
Farman is Aql of Imam.
Hazar Imam has blessed the Ismailis with the Farmans. At the same time he has instructed concerned authorities (who had approach the Imam and said they wish to render service to the Imam and jamat) to make the farmans available which they are not doing and they are betraying the Imam. When no farmans are available people start sinning because they do not know what is right and what is wrong. Now if people who has the intellect and does not use them - is it the fault of the Imam.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2003 8:04 am Post subject: Not everyone has access to Farmans
Mr Guest,
Alteration of farmans has been going on since the time of Rasulillah(Salwat). The Current Kitab of Quran has been referred to as "Usman's Quran"
There is a verse of a certain ginan
MOMAN MAN EM JANJO JI
Pir Hassanshah
"Donga to ene ene hare vasse, Te to lootae sahebji nu dhyan re"(Con men tend to stay close to Him(Imam), and steal your concentration {away} from the Imam)
Farmans are Haqiqat and I have heard this in Ramzan Molu's Waez
"Shariat ma ghana, Tariqat ma thoda, Haqiqat ma Virla koi" (Many in shariat, few in tariqat, barely any in Haqiqat)
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