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azamour
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 58
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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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ShamsB Said
[/quote]In MY opinion..ismailies are the only muslims..as they are the only ones that have actually followed the guidance of the prophet. i.e. followed the IMAM.
The Imam's authority for me doesn't come from the Qu'ran..neither is he dependant on the Quran.
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Remember the IMAM was ALWAYS THERE..from the DAY OF CREATION and will be THERE to the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, the Qu'ran came after the Imam.
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Since the topic of discussion is a Shariati matter answer should be given on the same level. So that every one can understand. If a Non Ismaili is asking you a Question about Ismaili practices and Only answer you have is that "Imam was there from the day of Creation and He will be there till end" than you might as well just say i dont know why we practice Islam this way but i do whatever Imam says.
Which to me would be against Ismaili spirit. As Imam says You should put My Farmans on your Neck through Akl(Wisdom,Intellect).
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azamour
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Excuse the Technical Error.... Quotation part was my opinion |
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azamour
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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unnalhuq said:
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Let’s make this elementary and see where it leads us and I think it is a very important discussion that warrants some time to be spent on.
What tells you that the Imam(s) have the authority? Or What constitutes the legitimacy of the Imam(s)? |
Argument with ShamsB we are having is that No Ismaili can say that Quran is Irrelivant. I dont think it would be in Ismaili spirit to discuss Hazar Imams authority. Even ShamsB's statement is i think out of his love for Imam. We all consider Imams love to be above all things, so lets just correct him(as we cant allow Qurans disrespect either) and lets keep it to that. |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9915
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I think we must make a distinction between what we understand and know for ourselves and what we articulate to others. The former approach would be the 'Batini' perspective to which ShamsB and curious2 are alluding to and the latter would be the 'Zaheri' approach.
From the 'Zaheri' perspective the Quran is important. Our constitution recognises it as the final revealed message of Allah. Mowlana HazarImam is building bridges with other Muslims and it is only the Quran that can be used for this purpose being the basis of all interpretations of Islam. |
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curious2
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| kmaherali wrote: |
I think we must make a distinction between what we understand and know for ourselves and what we articulate to others. The former approach would be the 'Batini' perspective to which ShamsB and curious2 are alluding to and the latter would be the 'Zaheri' approach.
From the 'Zaheri' perspective the Quran is important. Our constitution recognises it as the final revealed message of Allah. Mowlana HazarImam is building bridges with other Muslims and it is only the Quran that can be used for this purpose being the basis of all interpretations of Islam. |
Another thing we should all realize is the concept of traditionalist and rationalist schools of thoughts when it comes to Quran. Although the historic schools of these two branches had their say in earlier times but their reminisces still persists (that's where the current fight is I believe). Examples of those who come up with zahiri questions like above mentioned subject (and many other topics) are usually those who have their religious understandings firmly grounded in traditionalist school of thoughts.
So the battle is tough, but some how we have to come up with work arounds. 
Building a solid bridge on the basis of Quran is the best approach. Quran is the only zahiri thing that binds us all. |
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star_munir
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1602
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Ya Ali Madad all
In Ginan Buj Niranjan, Pir Sadardin says,"The Holy Quran should be understood for it is interpreted by the Nabi for you."
I agree that Imam was before Quran but just like Khoja Ismailis got the Shanakht of Imam from Ginans same can be with Non Khoja Ismailis that they may have recognized Imam through Quran. As it is in Ginan Moman chetamani verse 16,"The right knowledge has come from Ali and His Progeny as is forecast by Holy Quran and the Holy Quran has come from God Himself and the proof ofall that is really in this Satpanth."
If any one is asking an explanation of Quranic verse, I dont think he or she has done any thing wrong in that.
But however,in Ismailism the Farmans are far more important then any other thing. There are many examples which we can find in history with this regards like the battle at the time of Imam Ali in which Imam claimed to be Speaking Quran and ordered to continue the war etc. I would like to repeat the post of K.Maher Ali here which he replied to a Non Ismaili who wrote
"Words of Imam are more important than the words of Allah .. Interesting"
K.Maher Ali replied,"It would also be interesting for you to note that Islam is pluralistic. That there are many interpretations of Islam possible. According to Shia Ismaili interpretation MHI interpretes and contextualizes Allah's message and in that sense his message is equivalent to Allah's but more recent than the Quran. "By the institution of the 'Ulu'l-Amr', who can be interpreted as Imam and Caliph, and by placing obedience to 'Ulu'l-Amr' immediately after that to God and Prophet, he ensured that the Faith would ever remain living, extending, developing with science, knowledge, art and industry." -Hz. Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah Aga Khan III (Sept. 1934
Now regarding Wazzu.
Also in verse it is mentioned like O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath......
To clean body not necessary means to do Wazzu..Further I would request that is same section there is another topic with name wazzu, you may also refer to the posting there. In one of the post there is mention of Spiritual Wazzu which is very much worth reading. |
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nowroozalisabiti
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Afghanistan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0pt">Dear all YAM,<BR> You should pay attention, Muhammad (S) has said in o­ne Hadith," I remain two things for the Ummah, and they remain after me in the world; o­ne is Quran that is the speech of Allah and the other is the thread of Imamat. If any o­ne takes refugee to these two things he/she will never stray" Quran proves the Imam and Imam tells the Quranic hermeneutics to Ummah keeping with each era where the IMAM of the Time lives. If you guys want to ask information, I refer you to a book. Waj-e-Deen of Nasir Khusraw is o­ne of the books it explains in details what WUZU is. You should know both the Zaher and Baten. From Zaher we can prove baten. Please find an English translation of Wajh-i-Deen and you will find what the reality of the WUZU is. OK!</P> |
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kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9915
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| nowroozalisabiti wrote: |
Dear all YAM,
You should pay attention, Muhammad (S) has said in one Hadith," I remain two things for the Ummah, and they remain after me in the world; one is Quran that is the speech of Allah and the other is the thread of Imamat. If any one takes refugee to these two things he/she will never stray" Quran proves the Imam and Imam tells the Quranic hermeneutics to Ummah keeping with each era where the IMAM of the Time lives. If you guys want to ask information, I refer you to a book. Waj-e-Deen of Nasir Khusraw is one of the books it explains in details what WUZU is. You should know both the Zaher and Baten. From Zaher we can prove baten. Please find an English translation of Wajh-i-Deen and you will find what the reality of the WUZU is. OK! |
YAM nowroozali,
Yes I have read the tawil of wuzu in the Waj-i-deen and I must say it is beautiful like his tawil of other practices including the much acclaimed significance of Hajj.
However we must realize that the personal and communal health was the primary reason for the institution of wuzu by the Prophet (AS) as stated by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his statement (Precious Perals, No. 106); "The care of the body is incumbent upon Muslims and the necessary ablutions and washings that Islam encourages are part of that.."
However we must not get into the mindset that because there is a beautiful tawil of it, we should start practising it today. The essence of the tawil is that it represents the washing away of false concepts and reminds us of the correct metaphysical principles expressed through various physical personalities or the hududs as means of attaining correct knowledge and salvation. This function can equally be achieved through the recitation of appropriate verses of Ginans and Qasidas before Dua.
During the Fatimid period it was necessary to practice all the external Islamic rituals in common with other tariqahs otherwise the Fatimid period would not have lasted that long. Therfore the dais of that period thought of ingenious tawil in keeping with the esoteric and intellectual nature of our tariqah. However times have changed and we need not practice the wuzu in the form that it was practiced then. We should still strive to be as clean as we can physically before we go for Dua in JK. |
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DELETED
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: wuzu |
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