Homosexuality

Current issues, news and ethics
s786
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:20 pm

Post by s786 »

finni wrote:"Memoirs of Aga khan" may I suggest you read a bit about the person who wrote the foreword to it....
Explain please

---

Aside from all of that. Regardless of who around me is gay, or who makes my clothes or food or what not. Being gay is wrong. Just because a government allows it, it does not mean it's not ethically or morally wrong. Just because something becomes legally right, does that make it okay?

You're telling me drinking, smoking, all of these things are healthy? Just because they are legal they should be encouraged?

Come off it if Finni.

I feel the way I do, and I always will. Gayism is wrong, if it is a sin, it is a sin, so be it. I am no one to judge, but if it has been stated as wrong in reglious books, then I surely have the right to point it out.

Just because we won't be discussing it 20 years or what not, down the road, doesn't mean anything. Being surrounded by homo(sexuals) is the last thing I would want. Sure, if one day I have kids and I find out they are homo(sexuals), I would throw them out. I would not even think twice about getting any sort of help. That goes for saying, if you were my kid, I would throw you out as well. I'm disgusted and shocked at how people "okay" such a thing.

Like people have mentioned, just because eventually one day the government will say it's okay to marry a Dog or a Cow, or have sex with them, does that make it the "right" thing to do? Consider being a homo(sexual) along the same lines.
finni
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:54 am

Post by finni »

Gay relationship is like a hetero relationship ..which is consentual relationship between two adults be it emotional , friendship or others.

I agree, any other relationship between non- consenting parties is wrong.
pannekoek
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:14 pm

Mutah was practice by the Imams

Post by pannekoek »

<<I think what you are referring to is Mutah marraige... <BR>Ismailies don't practise Mutah.. >><BR><BR>The 3rd Aga Khan had a mutah marriage.<BR>
pannekoek
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:14 pm

Keep in Mind that the Imam has not condemned it

Post by pannekoek »

<P>One should keep in mind that the Imam-e-zman has not spoken out against gay marriage or the simple act of being gay. This in itself speaks volumes.<BR><BR>peace,<BR></P>
ShamsB
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:20 pm

Re: Mutah was practice by the Imams

Post by ShamsB »

pannekoek wrote:<<I think what you are referring to is Mutah marraige... <BR>Ismailies don't practise Mutah.. >><BR><BR>The 3rd Aga Khan had a mutah marriage.<BR>
Once again "Ismailies" don't practise Mutah Marriage.


Shams
arifjinha
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:02 pm

this subject

Post by arifjinha »

When i posted this, i was surprised at where it ended up in the discussion. my comments are referring to some of the posts which argue that homosexuality is wrong according to religion, as well as some of the more esoteric arguments about lust etc.<BR><BR>with all respect, we do not know the full mystery of the Creation.<BR><BR>The Quran was revealed to the prophet, God said "read". The written text is a record of that period of revelation.&nbsp; The purpose, I believe, was to bring the religion of Abraham to the Arabs who had fallen backward into superstition and adolatry.&nbsp;&nbsp; Many of the verses concern the political and social context of that period.&nbsp; I understand that there exists an exegesis of the Quran through the Imam and scholarship.&nbsp; I do not think we are literalists.&nbsp; The Koran gives very specific guidelines for inheritance, for instance, and we do not necessarily use those today.&nbsp; Some parts of the koran seem clear and then you could start to think that since they seem so clear we should take them literally.&nbsp; But, does anyone&nbsp;really think we should begin stoning gays? I think everyone would agree there must be interpretation.&nbsp; The Imam - the speaking koran - has not given us a farman o&shy;n the subject.&nbsp; Furthermore, as Ismailis we are expected to follow the laws of the country we live in.&nbsp; I do not want to be unfair, but some of the comments in this&nbsp;forum verge o&shy;n discrimination, I want to be as open as I can to the different viewpoints, but I feel duty-bound to comment o&shy;n this for the sake of our jamaat.&nbsp; There are members of the jamaat who are already struggling with this, who will be made to feel worse by reading this forum.&nbsp; Please hear me out.<BR><BR>There are those who would go to the Koran and use it to justify killing, they will take a bit out of it and make it seem clear that they are right.&nbsp; How do we judge for ourselves that they aren't? We are a faith of ethics and intellect.&nbsp; My understanding is that the perennial values of compassion and love are the root values of our faith, and when the koran is interpreted in a way that brings about the opposite, we can guess that the interpretation is incorrect.&nbsp; If you got to know someone who is gay, escpecially someone who is sincerely spiritual and appreciates faith, you would understand that this approach is harmful to people who are human beings like you and me.&nbsp; Since when do we start deciding for others how their relationship with God should be?&nbsp; My understanding is that MHI has a personal relationship with each of his murids.&nbsp; So please allow someone who is gay to ask God and MHI how they should deal with their homosexuality.&nbsp; There is plenty in all of the holy books to lead us astray, just as there is plenty to guide us.<BR><BR>There is a tendency to a certain esotericism here that I don't quite understand.&nbsp; The faith teaches a balance between&nbsp;spiritual and material life.&nbsp; Sexuality, I believe is an aspect of both.&nbsp;&nbsp;A healthy sexuality&nbsp;does not deny sexual desire.&nbsp;&nbsp;But we know the difficulties you can bring upon yourself and others if&nbsp;you do not bring that desire out in a healthy way.&nbsp; And I know enough gay people that do so, and more than enough straight&nbsp;people who do not.&nbsp; It is not a question of being elevated&nbsp;to some mystical plane and being above those who are sexual.&nbsp; The meaning of mysticism to me is this,&nbsp;&nbsp;Allah is everwhere, in every cell and atom, in every place in the universe without exception and you are never apart from that mercy and love, it is living and breathing within you whether you are separated or in union, this first, last, inner, outer, breathing human being.&nbsp; <BR><BR>enlightenment means knowing this, in my opinion<BR><BR>be good<BR>
rumi
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:44 am

Post by rumi »

I think this s786 and some other highly strung men o&shy;n here are simply getting off their difficulty in seeing things thru their intellect.Cor! Ge t a life !<BR><BR>Hey bruv, o&shy;ne who is gay, PLEASE be happy knowing you are loved and will always be partof the wider embrace that mawla showers o&shy;n all.[/quote]
rumi
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:44 am

Be Happy

Post by rumi »

I would like to admire some of the very warm comments and love being spread thru the words, thought written here.<BR><BR>I am sad to read some of the unintelligent speeach and discord in the minds of others.<BR><BR>I hope that in time many will learn that it is not for ANYONE to judge.<BR>Get a life!
sheri
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:41 am

Post by sheri »

I love this, its precise, up to the point and covers everything about how our IMAM feels and he said it openly in his speech. All in one! Its a very touching line.....:)

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule."

BEAUTIFUL!
finni
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:54 am

Study on mom's genes

Post by finni »

Moms' Genetics Might Help Produce Gay Sons By Randy Dotinga
HealthDay Reporter
Tue Feb 21, 11:52 PM ET



TUESDAY, Feb. 21 (HealthDay News) -- New research adds a twist to the debate on the origins of sexual orientation, suggesting that the genetics of mothers of multiple gay sons act differently than those of other women.



Scientists found that almost one fourth of the mothers who had more than one gay son processed X chromosomes in their bodies in the same way. Normally, women randomly process the chromosomes in one of two ways -- half go one way, half go the other.


The research "confirms that there is a strong genetic basis for sexual orientation, and that for some gay men, genes on the X chromosome are involved," said study co-author Sven Bocklandt, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of California at Los Angeles.


The link between genetics and sexual orientation has been a hot topic for more than a decade as a few scientists have tried to find genes that might make people gay or straight. In the new study, Bocklandt and colleagues examined a phenomenon called "X-chromosome inactivation."


While females have two X chromosomes, they actually require only one and routinely inactivate the other, Bocklandt said. "That way, both men and women have basically one functional X chromosome," he added. Men have both an X and Y chromosome, but the Y chromosome plays a much smaller role, he said.


Women typically inactivate one of their two X chromosomes at random. "It's like flipping a coin," Bocklandt said. "If you look at a woman in any given (bodily) tissue, you'd expect about half of the cells to inactivate one X, and half would inactivate the other."


In the new study, researchers looked at 97 mothers of gay sons and 103 mothers without gay sons to see if there was any difference in how they handled their X chromosomes. The findings appear in the February issue of the journal Human Genetics.


"When we looked at women who have gay kids, in those with more than one gay son, we saw a quarter of them inactivate the same X in virtually every cell we checked," Bocklandt said. "That's extremely unusual."


Forty-four of the women had more than one gay son.


In contrast, 4 percent of mothers with no gay sons activated the chromosome and 13 percent of those with just one gay son did.


The phenomenon of being more likely to inactivate one X chromosome -- known as "extreme skewing" -- is typically seen only in families that have major genetic irregularities, Bocklandt said.


What does this all mean? The researchers aren't sure, but Bocklandt thinks he and his colleagues are moving closer to understanding the origins of sexual orientation.


"What's really remarkable and very novel about this is that you see something in the bodies of women that is linked to a behavioral trait in their sons," he said. "That's new, that's unheard of."


Still, there are caveats. Dr. Ionel Sandovici, a genetics researcher at The Babraham Institute in Cambridge, England, pointed out that most of the mothers of multiple gay sons didn't share the unusual X-chromosome trait. And the study itself is small, which means more research will need to be done to confirm its findings, Sandovici said.


Ultimately, Sandovici added, the origins of sexual orientation remain "rather a complicated biological puzzle."


And this line of research does have its critics. Some have worried that, in the future, manipulation of a "gay gene" or genes might be used as a method of preventing homosexuality in utero, or perhaps even after. But Bocklandt said these kinds of fears shouldn't stand in the way of legitimate scientific research.


"We're trying to understand one of the most critical human traits: the ability to love and be attracted to others. Without sexual reproduction we would not exist, and sexual selection played an essential role in evolution," he said. "Yet, we have no idea how it works, and that's what we're trying to find out. As with any research, the knowledge you acquire could be used for benefit or harm. But if [scientists] would have avoided research because we were afraid of what we were going to find, then we would still be living in the stone age."


More information

Learn about the debate over a "gay gene" from the PBS' Frontline.
nargisk5
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:51 pm

Post by nargisk5 »

wow, I am so appalled at some of the things I’m reading in here.. and to think, some of ya’ll are preaching your views on islam even though you’re so close-minded, and not even attempting to think of the POSSIBILITY that being gay is okay?

so yeah s786, I think you’re right.. btw, I’m being very sarcastic here.. it’s your CHOICE to be a heterosexual right? just like it’s someone else’s choice to be gay? get real!!! if you can't control who you're attracted to, how do you know that others can?? just because it's a different choice than yours, doesn't mean that theirs is wrong or right. personally, I don’t know if it’s a choice or not, but I don’t see why someone would CHOOSE to be gay and go through so much with themselves, their family, and with society and close-minded judging people like you, when they didn’t have to..



just because God chose "Adam and Eve" and not "Adam and Steve" is not just for reproductive purposes... just because a male and female can conceive doesn't necessarily mean they should... half the people who do end up getting married and having kids get divorced.. or they're not exactly the best parents.. but i guess it's better to let them raise kids, rather than give it to a couple who actually cares for them but are gay.. right?? If the Imam hasn't yet made a statement on his views on gay's, don't make an assumption that it's wrong- half the stuff the Quran now says is outdated, and the people who do still follow it literally are too busy killing each other because of their ignorance.. and that's what you seem to be doing with your words s786.. i'm not saying you have to think being gay is okay, but you have no right to condemn it just by your assumptions.. and what, if being gay is wrong just because they can't have kids.. does that mean using contraceptives are sinful? so is abortion? what about putting kids up for adoption? what about those who can't have kids.. they're probably sterile because they're "sinful" and weren't meant to have kids right??

and for someone to say that they’re minds are developmentally immature??? personally, I don’t think any of ya’ll have the right to speak until you are in one person’s shoes.. regardless of what your beliefs on this subject are, to hear that you would be so discriminative towards someone who is gay probably makes you more of a sinner than someone who is actually gay (IF being gay is really a sin.. who knows!) s786,, after reading how you said that you would disown your kids if they were gay.. I hope for their sake, you don’t have any kids.. and if you do, they don’t grow up to be as callous as you seem to be.
pakifellah
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:07 am

Post by pakifellah »

YA ALI MADAD:&nbsp; LADIES AND GENTLEMEN ,&nbsp; i have gone through all of the post o&shy;n this subject,&nbsp; first of all there is no need to bring our beloved IMAM or his view into this, when the time would be appropriate he will address it, we are in no position to tell him to express his views.<BR>secondly, as i have read the post of FINNI, i think he or she should have been defending his religion post 9/11 then promoting homosexuality.<BR>thirdly few people are blasting o&shy;ne person who is taking a strong stand against homosexuality by telling you the way it is and accusing him of discriminating against gays , well guys and gals if you read your own post you will find yourselves guilty of the same crime.<BR>lastly everyone who is in support of homosexuality let me tell you, you dont know a damn thing about gayism, homosexuality is animal behaviour and has the blessings of SATAN,&nbsp; you just cant comments o&shy;n homosexuality by just watching few tv shows o&shy;n HBO. first&nbsp; you need to take&nbsp;a field&nbsp;trip to a gay neighbourhood and at night go to boystown to get a first hand knowledge.<BR><BR>no hard feelings against anyone.<BR>ya ali madad<BR>PAKIFELLAH
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

Interesting trend! Can marriages of convenience serve as a bridge to normal sexuality? In other words, can living together trivialize sex and hence lead towards normal marriage based on love?

Muslim Gays Seek Lesbians For Wives
Social Pressures Push Some Into Sexless Marriage

By Ayesha Akram
Religion News Service
Saturday, June 24, 2006; Page B09

On a Web site for gay South Asians, 27-year-old Syed Mansoor uploaded the following message last summer:

"Hi, I am looking for a lesbian girl for marriage. I am gay but I would like to get married because of pressure from parents and society. I would like this marriage to be a 'normal' marriage except for the sex part, please don't expect any sexual relationship from me.


"Being an Indian gay person, I believe it is so much worth it to give up sex and have a nice otherwise normal family. We can be good friends and don't have to repent all our life for being gay/lesbian."

Across the globe and especially in America, hundreds of other gay Muslims have started to pursue marriages of convenience--or MOC, as they are known-- in which gay Muslims seek out lesbian Muslims, and vice versa, for appearances' sake.

Mansoor works as an accountant in New York and is a devout Muslim. He abstains from drinking alcohol or eating pork and is particular about offering early morning prayers.

To his friends on Wall Street, he is a financial whiz; to his parents, a devoted son. But Mansoor is also part of a burgeoning trend of gay Muslims adopting marriages of convenience. Hard statistics are hard to come by, but on a single Web site for South Asian gays and lesbians seeking such marriages, almost 400 requests had been uploaded.

They ranged from a desperate plea from Atlanta ("I just finished medical school, and the pressure for me to get married is becoming ridiculous. I can't have a conversation with my parents without them pressuring me") to a straightforward one from Texas ("I will not object to her having sex with other women").

Mansoor credits the Internet for making these marriages a real possibility for gay Muslims. Gay activists agree and say that in recent years they have seen a rise in such marriages among Muslims.

Jack Fertig, a co-coordinator for al-Fatiha, a national advocacy group for gay Muslims, says he comes across at least one such e-mail request every month.

"It's obvious that this is becoming a viable option," he said. "People are seeking, looking and trying to make connections that could develop into such marriages."

Other activists say gay Muslims are resorting to these unions for reasons of self-preservation.

"Marriages of convenience are the result of gay Muslims wanting to avoid emotional and physical harm to themselves," says Muhammed Ali, a board member of Homan, a Los Angeles-based support group for gay Iranians.

Homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in much of the Islamic world. In Iran last year, two gay teenagers were publicly executed, while in Afghanistan, the Taliban government would torture homosexuals by collapsing walls on them.

Though gay Muslims in America don't have such fears, they still seek out marriages of convenience as a way of staying in the closet. Many of them worry about being ostracized from their families if their secret is revealed.

A marriage of convenience is the perfect solution, Mansoor said. "It's a great option," he said. "I get married to a lesbian, we sleep in different rooms and remain friends. Meanwhile, I can have a boyfriend."

Mansoor is also willing to throw a financial incentive into the deal. A year has passed since he posted his request on an online discussion board, and, as yet, he has received no replies. But he continues to hope. "Now that I have a good job and earn handsomely, my family keeps asking, 'Why don't you find a wife?' " he said. "I plan to have a marriage of convenience just to satisfy the world."

Muslim authorities around the world have repeatedly emphasized that homosexuality is not permissible. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America said there is no flexibility on this topic.

"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption. . . . No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer," he said. "People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."

Mainstream Islamic scholars also take an unfavorable view of MOCs. The face of Imam Omar, a scholar at the Islamic Cultural Center of Manhattan, crinkled with laughter when he was asked about this phenomenon. "These people are Muslims?" he asked.

Omar receives all sorts of inquiries and is now rarely taken aback. But a query about marriages of convenience stunned him. "What kind of marriage is this?" he asked. "A nikah [marriage] in Islam needs to be consummated. There is no concept of marriage in Islam without sexual relations."

Although some gay men feel a union of convenience is the best option, Rachel Sussman, a marriage counselor in New York, said they may not know what they are getting into. "It's opening up a Pandora's box," she said. "What happens if his partner falls in love with someone? What happens if he falls in love with someone who is not okay with him being married?"

Sussman says that arrangements can potentially lead to depression, anxiety and severe marital distress.

But Ali of Los Angeles disagrees. He doesn't think MOCs are any unhealthier than other arrangements.

"If you look at our traditional culture, marriages were usually marriages of consensus and convenience and not necessarily emotional marriages," he said. "If two people care enough about each other to help each other out, who is to say they won't have a good marriage?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... ailarticle
finni
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:54 am

Post by finni »

Interesting article. I am quite aware of this trend and I think it is pretty sad that one would resort to that to satisfy the wishes of their parents or the societal pressure.

But I am happy that there is a dialogue and awareness tho this subject matter.

It is of immense interest to a lot of people who are so afraid to come out or to just want to know what this is all about just judging from the hits this subject has received.

I am a gay Ismaili out to close few friends & family and I do sincerely hope many will come out and find peace within themselves.

Amen.
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

The following article that appeared in the NewYork Times discusses the crisis of married gays. It does raise interesting issues about what a marriage is or supposed to be.

When the Beard Is Too Painful to Remove
By JANE GROSS

Published: August 3, 2006
THEY spend decades denying their sexual confusion to themselves and others. They generally limit their encounters with men to anonymous one-night stands and tell all manner of lies if their wives suspect.

PLAYING A ROLE The movie 'Far From Heaven' featured Dennis Quaid and Julianne Moore as a couple struggling with his homosexuality.

They consider themselves to be devoted husbands, conscientious fathers and suburban homeowners, and what typically brings them to the point of crisis in their 40's, 50's and even 60's is their first emotional connection with another man.

For gay men in heterosexual marriages, even after the status quo becomes unbearable, the pull of domestic life remains powerful. Many are desperate to preserve their marriages — to continue reaping the emotional and financial support of wives, and domestic pleasures like tucking children in at night.

The demand for support groups for gay, married men, as well as traffic in Internet chat rooms, shows that so-called "Brokeback" marriages have hardly disappeared, as many experts assumed they would, even in an age when gay couples, in certain parts of the country, live openly and raise children just like any family.

Leaving a marriage and setting up housekeeping with a gay partner is not what most married gay men have in mind when they join a support group, according to Stephen McFadden, a clinical social worker, who runs such groups in Manhattan. Instead, Mr. McFadden and others in the field say, their clients generally start out committed to the opposite goal.

Even after a pained awakening or acknowledgment of their sexual orientation, these men want to save their marriages, Mr. McFadden and others say, either by lying, promising their wives they will not have sex with men or persuading them to accept their double lives.

Yet, such arrangements succeed for only "a small percentage'' of couples, Mr. McFadden and other therapists said, but the stubborn attempt often makes these men unwelcome or uncomfortable in support groups for gay fathers, which are easy to find but largely the province of men who are long divorced.

One support group member, Steve T., is a Long Island doctor, married to his high school sweetheart and the father of three school-age sons. He said he felt the sting of judgment when he tried a group for gay fathers. "They thought my desire to stay married was part of my denial,'' said Dr. T., who would do almost anything to keep his family together and his suburban lifestyle intact, even after telling his wife that he is gay.

She is his "best friend'' and the "perfect co-parent,'' said the 44-year-old doctor, who agreed to be interviewed on condition he not be fully identified and his secrets thus revealed to relatives, neighbors and patients. He enjoys the social life of a popular suburban couple, adores his in-laws and wants to live in the same home as his children.

But he also wants to continue a love affair with a man like himself: married, with children, a lawn to mow and a comfortable life. And until a few weeks ago, Dr. T. said, "this was working great in terms of getting our needs met and not disrupting our families.''

Dr. T.'s wife had agreed she could live with his sexual orientation provided he didn't act on it. So he lied and said his homosexual relationship did not include sex. But she wasn't fooled and forced him to move into an in-law apartment in the family home, a way station to a more formal separation.

This development has left him stunned, one moment sympathetic to his wife's position and the next disbelieving that they can't work it out. "I love her, but she wants me to be in love with her," Dr. T. said. "She wants to be my one and only. Everything we have will be at risk if, God forbid, we divorce.''

Data on these marriages is scarce and unreliable because of the various ways of defining "gay'' in demographic research. Studies in the 1970's and 80's, using inconsistent methodology, found anywhere from one-fifth to one-third of gay men were or had at one time been married. All the therapists and gay men interviewed for this article assumed that percentage would be far lower in today's more accepting society.

But Gary J. Gates, a demographer at the Williams Institute, a research group that studies gay issues at U.C.L.A., blended data for The New York Times from the 2000 Census and a 2002 federal survey of family configurations, and found that the percentage of gay men who had ever been married could be as high as 38 percent — or as low as 9 percent — depending on whether respondents were asked their sexual orientation, whom they had sex with or whom they found attractive.

Of the 27 million American men currently married, Mr. Gates found, 1.6 percent, or 436,000, identify themselves as gay or bisexual. Of the 75 million men who have ever been married, 1.8 percent, or 1.3 million, identify themselves that way. But, in both cases, when the men are asked about behavior if they have ever had sex with men, not what they consider their sexual orientation, the number of men who have ever been married doubles.

The sort of arrangement Dr. T. hoped for — a proper marriage and one or more relationships with men on the side — is not unheard of. Cole Porter pulled it off and so did James McGreevey, New Jersey's former governor, who left office, and his wife, in 2004. Mr. McGreevey, 48, has spent the last year writing a memoir, "The Confession,'' to be released on Sept. 19, and recently, with his new partner, Mark O'Donnell, 42, moved into a Georgian mansion in Plainfield, N.J.

THE specter of AIDS has led to a formal and presumably safe way for gay married men to have it all, known as a Closed-Loop Relationship. Instead of risky promiscuous sex, a married man has two "monogamous'' relationships, one with his wife and one with another man, usually married. Done according to the rules, enumerated on Web sites and online support groups, all four parties agree to this setup.

"It's an approach which people hoped would be a compromise solution,'' said Michael, the Web master of www.marriedgay.org, a site based in Manchester, England, who declined to give his last name out of deference to his wife, whom he no longer lives with. "But it's easier said than done.''

Closed-Loop Relationships are anathema to Bonnie Kaye, the former wife of a gay man, who runs the Web site www.gayhusbands.com and conducts "How to Come Out to Your Wife'' workshops. "If they're too selfish to leave, I won't work with them,'' Ms. Kaye said. "If they love their wives, they need to give them their lives back.''

Deception remains common. An unscientific survey of visitors to www.marriedgay.org found that more than half of the married gay respondents said their wives did not know of their sexual inclinations. Of those, a slim majority were considering whether to come clean but a third said "never.''

Men who are forthcoming with their wives, and then divorce or separate, report surprise that what happens afterward is often vastly harder than the process of ending the marriage.

Scott W., 64, a retired school teacher and real estate agent, relieved his occasional need for homosexual sex with anonymous encounters on East Hampton Beach without quite labeling himself as gay or bisexual. Only when he fell for someone, who rejected him because he was married, did Scott conclude he had to divorce a woman he loved and had been with for 24 years. That process, as these things go, was without acrimony, said Scott, a former member of Mr. McFadden's support group, and he remains close to her and his two grown sons.

But looking for love in late middle age, Scott said, is a frustrating ordeal. After a brief "slut phase,'' he had "the naïve idea I'd find someone right away.'' Instead, he has learned he is ill-suited, or too old, for gay night life. "They want to go out at 11 o'clock,'' Scott said, "and I want to go to sleep at 11 o'clock. Plus, in those places, there's too much noise and confusion.''

He eats dinner most nights at the bar of an East Side restaurant that attracts an older gay clientele. The conversation is lively, Scott said, but he hasn't found anyone to date. Recently, a married gay man left his business card but Scott threw it away. He is not looking for a one-night stand.

Scott's loneliness after divorce is common among middle-aged men, according to Dr. Richard A. Isay, 69, the first openly gay member of the American Psychoanalytic Association who himself left a heterosexual marriage about 20 years ago, when he was already in a gay relationship that he remains in today. Dr. Isay said he came slowly to understand his patients' sense of isolation during three decades of practice, and therefore has modified his advice to gay married men.

"I beg them to take it slow because it's difficult to find the substitute for the love and companionship of a longtime spouse,'' said Dr. Isay, author of "Commitment and Healing: Gay Men and the Need for Romantic Love" (Wiley, 2006). "They must take that loss into consideration.''

The loss comes on top of the adolescent awkwardness of not knowing the social norms of a new world, described on the blog www.comingoutat48.blogspot.com . Its author, who identifies himself only as Chris, writes of changing his clothes many times before heading to his first gay bar, finding it empty and not realizing he had arrived too early. He writes of not understanding the sexual terminology in gay personal ads and looking for an "always gay'' man to teach him what he needed to know.

In an e-mail exchange, Chris compared the experience to "living abroad,'' where the "thrill of a new place'' competes with "the deep loneliness'' of unfamiliarity. It is not, he said "the existential loneliness of not knowing who you are and where you belong, but the loneliness of 'What am I going to do this weekend?' 'How am I supposed to behave?' or 'When will the phone start to ring?' ''

Even in the security of a six-year relationship with a man, John. J., 53, resists divorcing his wife of 30 years. "I am still so in love with her,'' he said, speaking on the condition he not be fully identified because his parents, in-laws and colleagues do not know the details of his separation. "And there's nobody else I'd use that word for.''

John said he had no moral choice but to leave his marriage once he "let the emotional aspect'' of his attraction to men into his life. "That had been the realm of me and my wife,'' he said. "So that's the line of demarcation. The two, for me, are mutually exclusive. But divorce? I can't imagine the finality of that. I have doubts all the time.''

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/fashi ... &th&emc=th
peace.salam
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:26 am

Post by peace.salam »

I believe in the Holy Quran, and condemn gay behavior for myself and all my loved ones that I care about. For all others, if they are gay or lesbians, its their business and good for them as long as they dont try to impose their view on me. It is not in my contract with God to impose my views on others who never undertood the same contract (ie Islam) that I undertook.
ZAly
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:22 am

Shocking & Distressing - Response Needed

Post by ZAly »

pannekoek

Posted: 24 Jul 2005 03:50 pm Post subject: Mutah was practice by the Imams

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what you are referring to is Mutah marraige... Ismailies dont practise Mutah.. The 3rd Aga Khan had a mutah marriage.
_________________
Jim Davis, Ozark Bioregion Missouri USA

ShamsB response

Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 318

Posted: 24 Jul 2005 06:08 pm Post subject: Re: Mutah was practice by the Imams
Once again "Ismailies" don't practise Mutah Marriage.

Shams

YAM

I was just going through the forum on homosexuality and read the above SHOCKING Posts (what pannekoek had written about Imam Sultan Mohd Shah and Mutah form of marriage.)

Who says Imam Sultan Mohd Shah had Mutah marriage and with whom? How can people quote without any evidence and whats more shocking is that no one even responded to this post.

I am hoping that in future such comments will be dealth with properly.I am most distressed

ZAly
Fedayeen
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:05 pm

Post by Fedayeen »

I have not read the entire topic, but most of it. So, I may be wrong and if I am, someone please correct my error. To my knowledge, the Imam has not made a ruling on Homosexuality. If he has not, then it would fall under the interpretation of the individual, based on the history of the Imamate, the Prophets (all 124,000 of them) and the Revelations by Allah to mankind. Going by these and the most definite, the Quran, Homosexuality is wrong. The Prophet Luts message was that it was wrong and since then no Prophet or Imam has declared this to have changed and since it has not changed, then Homosexuality as an act is still as wrong today as it was then. If the Imam were to overrule this, then we would have a clear and definite stance to take, but since he has not, we must go with the readings of the Quran rather than the speakings of it, and the Quran plainly states the stance that should be taken.
akbarpanjwani
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:19 am
Location: Mumbai

NOT permitted

Post by akbarpanjwani »

It is not allowed or permissable as per Holy Quran as Allah has created women for men to satisfy his sexual desires. Homosexuality is Haraam in ISLAM.

Regards

Akbar[/b]
joseph
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:19 pm

Post by joseph »

So women's only purpose is to statisfy men's desires?? wow, that includes so much respect for women!!!!
Homosexuality is not only common to humans, many animal species practice it explain that!
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

Pope gets tough over Canada's same-sex laws
Ontario bishops in Vatican rebuke

Allison Hanes
CanWest News Service


Saturday, September 09, 2006

CREDIT: Plinio Lepri, Associated Press
Pope Benedict XVI has urged Canada's Roman Catholic politicians who voted for gay marriage not to sacrifice their personal beliefs for the sake of opinion polls and social trends.

In a toughly worded statement, Pope Benedict XVI Friday singled out Roman Catholic politicians in Canada who voted for gay marriage, urging them not to sacrifice their personal beliefs for the sake of opinion polls and social trends.

The Pope repeated his opposition to abortion and gay marriage after a week of meetings with Ontario Catholic bishops.

The group, including Cardinal Aloysius Ambrozic of Toronto, is wrapping up an ad limina visit to the Vatican -- a once-every-five-years courtesy call where they provide the Pope with a state-of-the-union report on their diocese.

"In the name of tolerance, your country has had to endure the folly of the redefinition of spouse, and in the name of freedom of choice it is confronted with the daily destruction of unborn children," the Pope said.

The pontiff touched on the highly sensitive issue of whether Catholic politicians can back legislation allowing practices such as gay marriage and abortion even if they are personally opposed to them.

He condemned such behaviour as "false dichotomies."

Same-sex marriage was legalized in Canada after a series of provincial court decisions and the passage last year of a bill in Parliament by a 164-137 margin.

But during last winter's federal election, Prime Minister Stephen Harper vowed to reopen the debate, which in many cases has pitted MPs against the positions of their parties. A vote on whether to revisit the law is scheduled to take place this fall.

Gilles Marchildon, executive director of EGALE Canada, a same-sex rights group that pushed hard for the marriage law, said Friday he was not overly surprised by the Pope's latest comment, since he has expressed his opposition before.

It is hard to tell, Marchildon said, how his remarks might influence the next round of the parliamentary debate.

"Most politicians are able to be objective and while being informed by their faith, are not shackled by it," he said.

Archdiocese of Toronto public relations director Neil McCarthy explained Friday that the Pope's latest foray into the gay marriage debate came directly in response to issues the visiting Ontario bishops would have raised.

He said Catholic bishops from Quebec and the Atlantic provinces also made an ad limina visit to the Vatican earlier this year, eliciting a response from the Pope on other matters of concern in Canada, like unemployment.

© The Calgary Herald 2006
BUIteacher23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:13 pm

Post by BUIteacher23 »

sexuality is fluid and not fixed. If you feel like you might be gay at one point but never have relations and eventually feel attracted to the opposite sex once, it doesn't make you homosexual nor does it necessarily mean you're bisexual. I'm sure everyone goes through these feelings and don't know how to deal with them so homophobia evolves from that. People are afraid of exploring the sexual side of themselves which leads to these types of attitudes. You could be attracted to one or two people of your sex in your lifetime and like many others of the opposite sex, that doesn't make you gay or bi you could still be straight if the opposite sex is your preference. Some say there is the 'gay gene' but I don't believe in that. Everyone, no matter what race or religion has sexual feelings, be it for the same sex or opposite sex, it could be one or the other or both or none or whatever else. Remember, it was only several centuries ago that people were sleeping around with everyone without looking at their age or sex/gender without thinking about morals and labels and categories are all a recent phenomenon. We have to look at the gray areas between heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality to understand. Plus if you just have feelings for the same sex but don't act upon them and pray about it, I don't think Allah will send you to hell for that. Remember, Islam is about peace, love, unity and also sacrifice and because homosexuality is not permitted in our religion it keeps us grounded in a way if we abstain from such practices. That's my take on it, though I don't disrespect those who are gay or bi cause I have friends who are and they're the sweetest people one could know.
ynv85
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:50 am

confused

Post by ynv85 »

i m a ismaili gay, livin in US...i know from a very early age that is 12 or 13 that i m gay & i feel that is what i never chose to be but i m not able to come out of the closet in front of my parents,i m totally confused wat to do.I m the o&shy;nly son of my parents and i m ready to sacrifice my whole life with a female after marriage, but i still wanna tell my parents abt it with honesty and i dont understand wat to do.i read all the posted msgs and i dint get any specific farman of Hazar Imam abt it.i m confused and i dont understand why Hazar Imam not addressin such an important social issue.Can someone help me with this...
BUIteacher23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:13 pm

Post by BUIteacher23 »

A lot of people do not agree with my opinion but sexuality is fluid and not fixed. It's one thing to be attracted to the same sex but another when you're engage in intimate relations with them. Going from being attracted to the same sex sometimes and to the opposite sex at others is something I view just the same as some having preference for partners way older than them, around the same age, or younger. Sexuality has no boundaries, but in our religion, our biology is our destiny(arguably) thus we must have heterosexual relationships and reproduce. In those times we were encouraged to reproduce in order to keep Islam going. But because Islam is the fastest growing religion right now, one may argue that procreation is not necessary although I believe it is. We're doing it to pass down our traditions to the next generation and all. It just makes sense.
ShamsB
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:20 pm

Post by ShamsB »

BUIteacher23 wrote:A lot of people do not agree with my opinion but sexuality is fluid and not fixed. It's one thing to be attracted to the same sex but another when you're engage in intimate relations with them. Going from being attracted to the same sex sometimes and to the opposite sex at others is something I view just the same as some having preference for partners way older than them, around the same age, or younger. Sexuality has no boundaries, but in our religion, our biology is our destiny(arguably) thus we must have heterosexual relationships and reproduce. In those times we were encouraged to reproduce in order to keep Islam going. But because Islam is the fastest growing religion right now, one may argue that procreation is not necessary although I believe it is. We're doing it to pass down our traditions to the next generation and all. It just makes sense.
It's very interesting that in one posting on the ginan section where you mention that ginan's aren't as important as the quran and in another posting in this section you actually make an arguement in regards to homosexuality and fail to mention that Homosexuality is forbidden in the Quran as quoted below...

" We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But We saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! (The Holy Quran, 7:80-84)"

Islam doesn't grow by reproduction or having lots of children...Islam grows by people becoming muslims and practising islam in the correct manner prescribed...of what use are people that call themselves muslims but commit all sorts of crimes and transgressions...there are a few million muslims in the middle east....how many of them live in the spirit of Islam and brotherhood.......

Islam isn't a faith where asceticism and being a hermit is permitted...all men/women are supposed to shoulder the responsibility of having a family....to live a balanced life..(as per the farman of Hazar Imam as well)...and that doesn't mean having a few dozen children to help Islam grow...

Ya Ali Madad.

Shams
finni
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:54 am

Post by finni »

I know it is a struggle to reconcile one's faith and sexuality.
One's orientation should be irrelevant as to how one practise faith .

One prominent author stated that she wished religion was about ones actions rather than beliefs. Basically do good thing and you will be rewarded accordingly. What is the point of following some beliefs which may be in conflict with others?

Hazer Imam has said and talked a lot about tolerance. Why should one be so specific and arouse hatred and incite outrage from fundementalist?

Get my point?
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

Do some gay men want to get HIV?
Researchers grapple with bug chasing

Jeremy Hainsworth
The Canadian Press


Sunday, September 24, 2006


VANCOUVER - Lloyd Norquay is HIV positive and he's mystified as to why anyone else would want to be.

Norquay, who manages a gay bathhouse in Vancouver, says he's been approached by men who don't have the virus that causes AIDS but who tell him they want to be infected by him.

"I usually try to find out why, if they're interested in talking at all, and then ask them questions as to why they're wanting to do this," Norquay said.

"Nobody has a real answer."

In the gay community, they're called bug chasers. If he were willing, Norquay would be referred to as a gift giver. Whether they actually exist or whether they're simply part of the fantasy life that's rife on the Internet is a matter of debate among researchers and even Norquay isn't quite sure.

He said whenever he's been approached by bug chasers online, they never show up for a meeting in the real world.

But medical officials and AIDS organizations say even the notion that AIDS may be a fetish among some gay men suggests that 25 years worth of work to build education and tolerance about the disease hasn't been enough.

Phillip Banks, director of HIV prevention for AIDS Vancouver, said with AIDS infection rates rising once more, some young gay men see becoming infected with AIDS as just a matter of time.

"That sense of inevitability for some was so stressful and such a burden that many people found relief with an HIV infection," he said.

He said a gay young man today has a 50 per cent chance of being HIV positive by the time he reaches his late 40s.

"If there are people who are so impacted psychologically, emotionally by the existence of HIV in their communities that they feel they would be better off to become (infected) and just have it done with, then that's a significant issue that needs to be addressed."

Michael Graydon, a researcher at Carleton University in Ottawa, studied the bug chasers and gift givers via online newsgroups for his master's thesis which he presented to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta in 2004.

"Sometimes it was described as the gift of death," Graydon said in a recent interview. "Other times, it was described as the gift of the positive brotherhood."

He said one gay man told him he wanted to contract the virus sooner rather than later so "he could feel more like a gay man, which to me, kind of summed up everything.

"These are guys that are the products of a virulently homophobic culture, who've been viciously stigmatized because of HIV for 25 years. They believe being gay means death. Being gay means getting AIDS."

© The Calgary Herald 2006
shamsu
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:32 am

Re: confused

Post by shamsu »

ynv85 wrote:i m a ismaili gay, livin in US...i know from a very early age that is 12 or 13 that i m gay & i feel that is what i never chose to be but i m not able to come out of the closet in front of my parents,i m totally confused wat to do.I m the o&shy;nly son of my parents and i m ready to sacrifice my whole life with a female after marriage, but i still wanna tell my parents abt it with honesty and i dont understand wat to do.i read all the posted msgs and i dint get any specific farman of Hazar Imam abt it.i m confused and i dont understand why Hazar Imam not addressin such an important social issue.Can someone help me with this...
Dude, write him (Mowla Bapa)

A simple letter explaining your dilema and asking his advice. I am sure you can find the address if you use your resources.

The sexual need can be compared to hunger.

Different people have different tastes.

Some may like mexican food some italian.

Some prefer men some women.

The guy who likes mexican can satiate himself with Italian food if he has to. He may not enjoy it as much but it is possible.

I am sure there are many men in marriages where the sex life is worse than that of a married gay guy.

I think the single gay lifestyle is pathetic but then marriage is not a bed of roses either.

Hope things work out for you

Shams
BUIteacher23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:13 pm

well then

Post by BUIteacher23 »

let me ask you this. If you're having attraction to the same sex but do not engage in relations, does that mean you're going to hell according to the quran because your body is feeling something, even if your mind and soul do not want your body to feel this way? I know the quran says no homosexuality, but I think it is referring to not engaging in homosexual relations or falling for the temptations which is why I replied the way I did.

And all I said in the other forum is that Dua and Dasond are seen as compulsory, although Ginans are very important, considering that they summarize the Quran it's not like we're told to sing ginan in our spare time the way we have to say Dua 3 times a day even if we're not in jamatkhana, that's what I meant.
ynv85
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:50 am

Post by ynv85 »

Entire Message deleted by Admin

This is not a dating board. We can not allowed this type of message on this board. It has already gone far enough and we will not let it degenerate into a dating service for people of certain preference.

This thread will be closed soon. A lot of what could have been discussed under this topic has already been said. Thank you for your understanding

Admin
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