Ismaili.NET - Heritage F.I.E.L.D.Defenses Glorifying the Aga Khan filed in federal Court - 2010-04-29
In a surprisingly rapid twist of events, both Mr Tajdin and Mr Jiwa have filed their respective statements of Defense this 29th of April 2010. They affirm to being devoted followers who will unconditionally abide by the wishes of the Aga Khan, whom they glorify in their defense.
Mr Tajdin declares that:
He has not been served yet but the ethics imposed upon him by his faith demands that he should not keep in ignorance the public by being silent on the issue and should clarify all of the facts, pertaining to this lawsuit, of which he is aware.
He reaffirms his allegiance to the Aga Khan, is willing to submit to any of his wishes, and is ready to surrender himself and all his possessions to the Imam.
He has been printing Farman books since 1992 with approval and instructions from the Imam received on August 15, 1992 in Montreal.
He has not received any communication from the Imam from 1992 to 2009 instructing him to stop publication.
He cannot stop publication without instruction from the Imam as this would be a breach of his oath of allegiance to the Imam.
All Farman publications were financial deficit projects done as a volunteer service and large numbers of books were distributed free of charge.
Farman sharing is a historic Ismaili tradition which still continues today.
The current Ismaili Constitution does not restrict the right to publish Farmans
Mr Tajdin concludes that:
He has no choice but to await further direct instructions from the Imam.
He reaffirms his allegiance to the Aga Khan, is willing to submit to any of His wishes, and is ready to surrender himself and all his possessions to the Imam.
Mr Jiwa states that:
"This action does not appear to have been authorized personally by the Aga Khan .."
"In distributing Farman books obtained from Tajdin to other Ismailis, he has not violated either the Ismaili Constitution or any Farmans"
He has not violated the copyright act as "Tajdin was given express authority by the Imam" and regardless of the fact that "the limitations period provided for by the Copyright Act also bars this action as the books containing the Farmans were commenced publication in the year 1992", he will still do whatever the Imam tells him to do.
Mr Jiwa clarifies finances:
He "obtains these books for C$50.00 from Tajdin and sells it for C$50.00, without any profit.
"All monies received by him from the sale of (other) books after 2005 were delivered to the Jamatkhanas"
Mr Jiwa further states that:
"If the Imam edited the Farman before releasing to the Jamats, in effect he is superceding the Farman he made orally previously."
He "unconditionally reconfirms his oath of allegiance to his Imam" and "if the Imam does not desire his Farman books to be distributed to the Jamats (...) this defendant will submit to the instructions of His Imam without reservation whatsoever"
Replies From the Plaintiff are due within 10 days, and Affidavits of Documents are due 30 days later.
[Update from May 6: Ogilvy Renault, the law firm which launched the case has asked for an extension of 15 days to reply to the Defense. They claim delays due to breakdown of email servers, blackberry communication, travel of senior lawyer, time difference with Paris etc...The more delays in this file, the more damage it creates to the reputation of the Ismaili community, the Imam and the defendants. It is to the advantage of all parties that this case be withdrawn from the courts.]
[Update from June 22: Defendants have filed a Motion for summary Judgement to have the case dismissed.]
[Update from September 5:
Online Book that gathers court materials as well as articles that are currently available for the ongoing 2010 Lawsuit:
Copyright Lawsuit 2010: Online Book of All available Materials
News on cross-examinations:
Copyright Lawsuit: CROSS_EXAMINATIONS Table of Contents - 2010-09-04
Latest Development
Copyright Lawsuit: Imam Appears for Discovery and Ends the Case - 2010-10-15
As users are asking to read the letters from Nagib and Alnaz on the court docket, the latest have been attached on the following link:
A. Various Court Filings
Revised Factums have been posted Here:
2010-11-29 Summary Judgment : Plaintiffs Revised Combined Factums of Reply and of Motion
2010-11-29 Summary Judgment: Defendants' Revised Factums of Motion and of Reply
There has been proven fraud in the recent past in the Aga Khan's domain by the Aga Khan's agents:
Aga Khan Lawsuit: Fraud at Aga Khan Studs - 2000-02-22
2011-05-25: A Jamati Member who has never met the Defendants volunteered as his brotherly duty to pay the $30,000 that was demanded in the Plaintiff''s submissions and that was accordingly ordered by the judge.
Read the full details of the $30,000 payment directly to H.H. The Aga Khan.
2011-06-16: The Appeal Memorandum of Fact and Law against the Summary Judgment has been filed in court by the defendants on June 16th, 2011.
Read the Full Appeal Memorandum of Fact and Law
Link to Court Docket Case T-514-10
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-60-11
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-59-11
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-156-13
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Tajdin Defence Apr 29.10.pdf | 491.02 KB |
| Jiwa AK Defence Apr 29.10.pdf | 543.82 KB |
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Comments
That is not how it happened
No you are wrong, Hazar Imam was never in Court or in front of a Judge in this lawsuit. This is only propaganda.
The Imam never acknowledged that he was the plaintiff. From what we know, SS is the real plaintiff, the Imam came to the Discovery to end the matter and gave instructions in accordance. The fact that Gray put off record immediately as the Imam started giving his instructions should be proof enough that he did not agree with the Imam on how the lawsuit should be resolved.
What the Judge or others think will not change the truth expressed by the Imam. The Imam works in a time frame which is completely different of the time frame of the limited life of a human being because he works as the Imamat which does not end in our time frame. We can not tell the Imam when and what he should do. Leave him the decision of his next move.
@librarian-umed
Thank You! and Thank You! again and again many... many... times brother, You are just doing an excellent work and we pray that May Our Lord Hazar Imam showers his choicest loving blessings on you for your hard work and dedication. Ameen!
On January 27th, 2011 librarian-umed
Well said Umed! Keep up the good work and may Mowla give you strenght to do more Ameen.
Editor again misinterprets
Editor again misinterprets comments saying Alnaz is insulting Imam, Islam and Prophet PBUH. my response and maybe Alnaz you can clarify too.
Reply Bloglaw - Editor - Alnaz unverified is merely saying that if Prophet Mohammed PBUH had issued and reaffirmed in a recorded Hadith about who is to be The first Caliph and Imam then the course of history would have been different. He is also saying Imams directions on 15th October are in contradiction to the Talika read in some of the JK's. Imam needs to clarify this contradiction and he does not believe this announcement is from Imam.
When Farmans or Talikas are received, they are read and studied by Our Institutions slso nationally and any thoughts of Imam and clarification of any message or issue sought and discussed. this is institutionally a process.
So anyone seeking information is not unusual. Many or most may not know and so find such seeking of information openly an emotional challenge as it is also unprecedented. They should feel free to discuss and seek clarification from their local ITREB.
@Alnaz
Ya Ali Madad Alnaz thanks for this beautiful posting. Our Beloved Hazar Imam knows the love you and Nagib have for Him, He also knows your Iman is also strong towards Him. May Allah shower His Blessings upon you and Nagib, may He give you both peace and strength during this difficult time. May Our Beloved Hazar Imam always be with you both, Ameen. Thank You.
@Alnaz
We and leaders I feel must look for excuses and reasons to share all the guidance of 15 th October and not for excuses not to share for legal or find other excuses not to share between brothers and sisters. Leaders in question are selective for the wrong reasons.
I feel you and Nagib should consider and share on this forum all the guidance, and the signed consent and also the 2 Draft consents by Mr Gray.
@Alnaz re: above post of Jan. 24th
786
Thank you for this post, Alnaz. I am glad you clarified this question on this site.
"Sugaraa bhar bhar piyè, nugaraa jaaè piyaasa..."
May Mowla Bapa keep us all among the "sugaraa". Ameen.
Yes, history will keep repeating itself because we don't pay attention to it and we (i.e. most of the Jamat) don't have the basic grounding in the faith...It is so sad.
Ya Aly madad.
gimme a break!!
as a child growing up, my parents and jamati waezins taught me, i should never wish anything bad upon anyone. but as of today, i really dont mind if nagib and alnaz burn in the fire of HELL! Rishma
@RISHMA
Rishma
YA Ali Madad
We all being a spiritual Brothers and Sisters of one faith, one should not be wishing ILL about other members of our Jamat, One has no right to wish BAD upon anyone as no body is perfect except Almighty Allah and again who are we to judge some ones action? I pray that May Mowla Bapa our Lord forgives you for your ILL wishes towards a fellow Ismaili and May he bless each and every member of our Jamaat around the World with his very choicest loving blessings for our good health, happiness, well being, Imanji Salamati, Unity, Love, and for Mushkila Asahaan, Munjawans and difficulties we all are facing and may we all reunite again as one big loving Ismaili family to keep our beloved Hazar Imam happy. Ameen.
@Rishma
Ya Ali Madad. As a Spiritual Sister let me comment here, ask yourself this question, will Our Beloved Hazar Imam be happy to read your comment, are you "hurting Him or making Him happy? Thank You.
You are a good "follower" of
You are a good "follower" of your parents and waezins...
@VRowonsadbarg
Sir, Thats Not a Good Advice "to be a good follower " and That's not our Beloved Hazar Imam teaches us, Our Lord teach us to be humble, to be polite, to be generous, to be forgiving, to be kind, to be loving etc...etc.... etc...I wish you Peace in your heart and I pray that may our Lord our Hazar Imam gives you lots of Love for all our brothers and sisters around the world. Ameen
@Nick
Ya Ali Madad Nick. Thanks for your comment. With regard to Brother Rowonsadbarg comment, I think he meant that Rishma was a "good follower of her parents and alwaezens", and she should carry on that way. Please forgive me if I am wrong. Thank You.
The guy is doing the
The guy is doing the opposite of what he had been thought. The word in ".." means the opposite in my language. Sorry for implying this rule in English, as I see now there is not such a rule. Admin can you please delete my comment. Sorry for confusion. Nick and Yasmin I totally agree with you.
@Rowonsadbarg & YASMIN
Dear Brother & Sister
YA ALI MADAD
I am very sorry! if I have hurt your feelings, I just misunderstood your comment please except my big sorry and forgive me with your big heart kindly "To err is human; to forgive is divine." Thank You and May our Lord our Hazar Imam bless you and your loving families always. Ameen
Dear Brother, You have not
Dear Brother,
You have not hurt anyone's feeling, it has been a healthy discussion and we found the mutual ground. Ya Ali Madad.
@Rowonsadbarg
Ya Ali Madad Brother Rowonsadbarg. Sorry for the confusion my apology, sometimes it happens, but I know you have always thought "good" of Nagib and Alnaz. Thank You.
Mawla Ali Madad dear sister
Mawla Ali Madad dear sister Yasmin. Mawla knows best and we mortal human beings can make mistakes. But it is my humble oppinion that if the intention of Nagib and Alnaz was to spread Mawlana's message to the community, the way I would choose as a leader would be to work with them and use their potential and devotesness for the good of the Jamaat. That would be a constructive solution I think and everyone would benifit and be happy.
@Rowonsadbarg
Ya Ali Madad Brother Rowonsadbarg. Many Thanks for your posting. I feel so "good", when I read posting of my Spiritual Brother who is "far away', but it seems that we are not too far, it is a small world now. I have always enjoyed your comments on this excellent "Heritage Site", so please keep on posting and surfing. We all are Spiritual Children of Our Beloved Hazar Imam, let us all be united, and make Our Beloved Hazar Imam always happy. Many Thanks. Khuda Hafiz
Talika, For only a Couple of countries?
Isn’t it surprising that the so called Talika was read out in JKs of USA and Canada only, while the case material is known to many Ism;ailis youths all over the globe. If that Talika had been from HI, it would have been for entire Jamat of the global. Why was not that Talika read in so many other countries? Is this decision is made by LIF leadership? We must request them what is the reason for this? I smell rat in it. In short, one needs not to be a rocket scientist to know that who is behind this and what are his objectives?
Talika for only a Couple of countries
I have only one thing to say regarding this Talika, is that the Imam of Time has put an end to this matter, why every body is trying to put their noses in every matter, as a murid you have to obey what Imam of Time says, if you have that much questions then the door is open to go any where. Please for the love of Imam no more comments just put an end to and keep praying that such an incident don't occur in future. (Ameen)
Possible reasons why this
Possible reasons why this Talika was not read in all JK's
1. It was not sent. If not it should have as it is unprecedented and the protection Imam is seeking and wishing is global and Imam wishes all Murids to know regarding the publication of Farmans. It is addressed country by country which cpuld mean it may be limited to countries, unlike the LIF announcements
2. It was sent but not read. Each President has the
authority to decide if it is appropriate to read or
not like the last LIF announcements which were sent but not all read everywhere. This decision will have been relayed and reasons to LIF chairman and Dr Sachedina.
3. There are some suggesting that this will be sensitive to read in some countries pr murids dont know or need to know. Hence the use of specificities of situation. This can't be so because also all the information and more is available internationally, and murids globally are reading and aware and progressively more so. If not read in their JK they may also think this guidance does not apply to them and they will certainly all wonder why? So would the leadership in those countries. The word sensitive has been used by Leaders in question to effectively maintain the status quo.
4. If Imam wanted this to be read only in the area where the 2 murids live, then why announce in UK and USA, and not send instead a personal Talika to them.
You are right this needs to be clarified by the Presidents to their Jamats and if they need to then they would seek clarification institutionally presumably from Chairman of LIF, and or Dr Sachedina
Historic case
A Murid's synopsis of this historic happening
First of all, I beg our Imam for forgiveness for my opinions stated below. I emphasize that these are purely my opinions after examining all the happenings to date and I do not intend to take any sides in this matter nor do I intend to intentionally hurt or demean any of the parties concerned. But I feel it necessary to reveal my opinions via these synopses, in case it helps to see the picture clearly:
1. Up to 15th October 2010 everything the defendants claimed rings true. Whatever they have said about the forgeries, about the plaintiff not being the imam, etc is a true representation. I have reached this opinion considering my knowledge of who the Imam is and what He stands for. There are also various other pointers. For example, the ridiculous action by Mr Brian Gray, a lawyer of substance and experience, of trying to prove that the Imam is the plaintiff by showing a photograph of himself standing next to the Imam during a function held in Toronto in May 2010. How does posing for a photograph with the imam prove that the Imam is the plaintiff in this case? Why would he do such a thing? One of two reasons: Either he thought the judge, the courts and the defendants have no brains and are completely stupid, or else he was unable, due to obvious reasons, to furnish any concrete evidence of the Imam Himself having hired his services. Similarly if examined carefully, there are many other pointers which lead to one conclusion and that is my first synopsis: PRIOR TO 15th OCTOBER 2010, ALL THE DEFENDANTS CLAIMS WERE, unfortunately, TRUE!
The 15th October 2010 produced a dramatic turn of events in this case:
2. Our Imam Himself appeared for discovery. The reports of this meeting show that the Imam was gentle and loving towards the defendants. However He did ask the defendants to return the unsold books to ITREB. Also, He told the defendants He would call upon them and that they would work together soon. Also, He did not demand the return of books already sold/distributed. I find this meeting to be very significant and the following is my synopsis:
THE IMAM'S APPEARANCE, IN PERSON, SHOWS THAT HE CHOSE TO TAKE ON THE ROLE OF THE PLAINTIFF IN THIS CASE. I am not saying that he approved of the method chosen by SS and his team to handle this matter. In fact the converse is true, which explains His gentle and loving demeanour towards the defendants. Also the fact that He allowed the distributed books to remain with people shows that in the Imam's eyes, this was not such a big issue. So then why would He appear and take on the role of the plaintiff? I feel that the Imam agreed with the PRINCIPLE/CONCEPT of the matter i.e His firmans and taliqahs should only be published under His authority and guidance, and not by any other individuals in the jamat. This is further evidenced by the fact that the Imam asked for the unsold books to be returned to Itreb.
This meeting should have been indication enough for the defendants who are devout and knowledgable murids that the Imam has come and given His guidance. The Imam understands that the two murids carried out this work based on their conviction that they had been granted permission by the Imam but now the Imam does not wish for His firmans and taliqahs to be distributed in this manner, and surely the Imam has the right and the authority to change His mind whenever He wishes and without any explanations whatsoever. I'm sure all murids of the Imam will accept this. Therefore, what I am saying is that this meeting should have been a clear sign for the defendants to completely withdraw from the case, to submit all their materials to Itreb, to inform the judge that they had received the Imam's guidance and that they were withdrawing their defence and they did not wish for the case to proceed any further. Thereafter, they could have asked the judge for leniency as far as costs and damages are concerned. This would have been an excellent move as it would have spared all of us the pain of reading the summary judgement from a person who knows nothing about our religion and community and about our emotions and convictions. For eg, we would not have had to read about the disgraceful comparison of the Imam to the pope. I wish the defendants could have thought through the happenings of October 15th 2010. I know withdrawing in the manner I have suggested would not have been easy, but surely for Imani murids, the fact that they had a mulaqat with the Imam Himself for over 30 minutes, the fact that the Imam spoke lovingly and gently to them and the fact that the Imam said that He would call upon them and work with them later on, would and should have carried them through the humiliation of withdrawal, happily and easily.
3. Finally, our Imam is the most merciful. SS, MM, AB are His children and so are Nagib and Alnaz. Most unfortunately, and this is indeed a black mark against them, SS, MM, AB went completely over the top in this issue. Nagib and Apnaz also did not leave any stone unturned to retaliate with all their might. But out of His infinite mercy, the Imam Himself stepped in and tried to make this over the top situation somewhat manageable. We should all respect this endeavour by our Imam and put a stop now to any further escalations and accusations. I'm sure the Imam will deal with His leaders when appropriate. I am also equally sure that He will give the defendants a chance to serve Him in the right way, officially, thereby utilising their talents and passions but all in all, ALL are His children and in the end, He will forgive everybody, inshallah.
Once again, I beg forgiveness if my synopses have hurt or offended anybody and once again I emphasise that these are just my own surmises but I do hope my words will be considered carefully and will shed light on all issues.
Ya Ali Madad
What is apparent...
Dear Murid,
If #1 rang true until October 15th, then you agree that someone high-placed was bold enough to send false letters (Talikas) and start a lawsuit in the Imam's name just to destroy Nagib. The expert reports showed that they could do free-hand "false" signatures as well as make stamps of "true" signatures. Anyone who is capable of going to those lengths - what are they capable of? Do they really respect Hazar Imam? What did cross-examinations reveal about who reveres the Imam and who doesn't?
Now if until October this High-placed person could not convince everyone to turn against the defendants, he must have been furious!
Re-reading all available material, here is what I see:
On October 15th, Defendants were obviously ready to listen to and obey their Imam. As the meeting progressed, Hazar Imam said and repeated some things (like the distributed books can be kept). I am sure they were listening carefully, as the whole premise has been how they treasure Mowla's authentic words. There is no reason to doubt their intentions.
Defendants' mistrust of SS was common knowledge, but instead of appeasing it, Mowla let the defendants watch how SS and MM jumped in when He was speaking and loudly contradicted Him and did not speak in "one voice" with Imam. Then, the draft consent came from the Lawyer, purporting to have been reviewed "by His Highness", but it contained the opposite of what Hazar Imam said and repeated on that day (and that the Lawyer Gray did not let be on the record)!.
How is a murid to proceed at that moment? When obviously the demands of SS were included, and the clarifications / modifications / objections of the Imam were left out of the consent draft? Who was still controlling the case?
Nagib decided to just draft and sign a consent, based on Hazar Imam's words. The Lawyer Gray decided that he preferred not to discuss and to go to Summary Judgment. Nagib wrote to the court that he was being dragged in to the Summary Judgment motion when both He and the Aga Khan wanted to end this with a consent Judgment. So who is the one who continued the case?
I go back to the Mehmani where Hazar Imam said 3 things: "continue" , "succeed", and "we will work together." On October 15th, Hazar Imam said "We will work together".. so which step have defendants reached? Has a "success" happened for the "work together" to begin?
I am not advocating for the case to continue because honest people seldom win against corruption. But I still believe that the definition of "success" needs to be looked at. Is the exposition of the corruption a success?...
@Believer's above post of Jan. 24th (What is apparent)
786
Bravissimo, Believer!! What a brilliant analysis!!! Thank you!!!!!!! Mowla tamnè sukhi raakhè, ameen!
Ya Aly madad.
Believer's comments
I am often amazed at the analysis offered by some individuals. MHI has often said, use your intellect, and Believer's comments certainly prove the use of intellect. Only if those who desire to abide by the announcements made in the name of our lord, used their intellect.
In my documents, I have referred to a point made by MHI, to follow His "thinking process". He did not say follow His Farmans, but specified "thinking process". What did He mean by this? I have never seen anyone discuss this point. I urge all to reflect over this point made by our lord.
The Imam came to conciliate
The Imam came to conciliate between his children.
Your interpretation is not based on sound information of what the Imam said at this meeting, specifically that he remembered the 1992 Mehmani and he said he did instruct at that time to continue publishing the Farmans.
Reply: Umed
What you say is correct and goes to prove that my first synopsis is true that whatever the defendants claimed prior to Oct 15 2010 was true. However, the biggest pointer of the mulaqat of Oct 15 2010 is that the Imam asked Nagib to return the unsold books to ITREB which clearly indicates that the Imam has changed His mind and does not wish for the defendants to operate on their own but would want this task to be carried out officially under His guidance and authority. So this does not change my second synopsis. I'm sure the Imam has plans to include Nagib an Alnaz but for the moment, after this mulaqat, they should have withdrawn and awaited further instructions from the Imam. As I said, please read my words carefully because I have put a lot of thought before writing my opinions.
Thank you, Umed, and Ya Ali Madad.
All the best.
@Murid &. Umed
Imam also have said so because the project of these volumes had ended and Imam did say we will meet and work together meaning also institutionally too ?
The biggest and most
The biggest and most important pointer which is also the only real issue of the judgment [infringement] is that Imam has told everyone that day that he gave instructions at the Mehmani to continue with the Farman project.
That instruction even in a legal framework means there was consent up to the time Imams revoke the consent, therefore even the publication of the Golden Edition was under consent.
You may debate for the next book that it may not be under consent. But that also has been addressed by the Imam since He said he will work with defendants for the next ones.
It is not up to any of us to judge the matter because either it is a religious matter between the Imam and the defendant and the Imam should be the one to judge it or as Harrington says it is not a religious matter and therefore there is no need for Ismailis to step into the debate which should be left to the realm of the Canadian Justice which provides various mechanism to correct wrongs.
*Sigh*
Point taken.
Now please explain, if you can, what it means when the Imam asked Nagib to return stocks of books remaining with him to ITREB. How does this relate now to the issue of consent?
your point #3..
YAM Murid, If I may attempt an answer..
I think this question ties in with your point #3 above.
All are Murids of Mowla who is infinitely graceful and Just.
By suggesting a consent including a return of undistributed books, He was mercifully making a path of redemption to the Leaders who went overboard. By remembering the Mehmani and accepting that those who have the book can keep them, He was asking for a humble gesture of acceptance by these leaders after which the matter could be put to rest. Once the Truth is accepted, there would be no advantage in pursuing the matter of forgery any further, because Imam is all-forgiving.
By remembering the Mehmani and accepting that those who have the book can keep them, he reinforced the Defendants' Iman. By suggesting a return of undistributed books, He showed them which concessions to make in order to achieve the brotherly goal of working together.
Now, recall His speech that same night. Often situations don't have black and white answers, and in order to reach a common goal, parties must work together past their differences. On October 15th, which party was not willing to make the concession that was asked for?
More generally, if the Leadership has, after so many decades decided that they will work on a Farman compilation, and that they will finally put resources in this endeavor that they are trying to get approved, then it was perhaps time that Hazar Imam consolidates the capacity. This explains the other matters addressed during the meeting. What more just way to proceed?
@Believer's above post of Jan. 24th (Your point # 3)
786
Excellent articulation of explanation, brother Believer!! Mubaraki ! A pleasure to read!
May I please add that we need to make note of the fact that when Nagib brought up the question of the remaining books on Oct. 15 (I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly, he was the one who brought it up, not some one else; my apologies if I am wrong), he asked if he could return them to Itreb in Naïrobi, which is mostly manned by Ismailis, as opposed to IIS, as the leaders insisted (which is manned by a mixture of Ismailis and non Ismailis).
Ya Aly madad!
I told Mowlana Hazar Imam on
I told Mowlana Hazar Imam on 15 October 2011 in Toronto, "I have about 200 books left in Nairobi, can I give them to ITREB in Nairobi?"
And Mowla replied "OK."
That's it. There was no mention of IIS at anytime during that meeting.
So, Mawla did not ask but
So, Mawla did not ask but Nagib offered them. Mawla agreed. Mawla also said Mawla will meet them again and will work together meaning institutionally. Another possibility is these 200 books would then be distributed by Itreb as is with may be a new re- print, since Mawla has agreed to the printing of Farmans as confirmed by Dr Sachedina.
@Nagib re: above post of Jan. 24th (I told ...)
786
Thank you very much indeed for your clarification, brother Nagib. Yes, the leaders had asked in their announcement early in 2010 to return the books to IIS (? or Itreb?).
In my post I meant that you had volunteered to return the remaining books, it had not been asked of you...
Hang in there now, brother Nagib. We have some even more difficult days ahead of us.
Ya Aly madad.
@Nagib
Nagib asked MHI AFTER MHI had said ITREB, but did not specify which ITREB. IIS was never mentioned by MHI at any time.
@Believer's above post of Jan. 24th (Your point # 3)
786
Bravo for your patience and the clarity of your explanations, Believer ! Thank you.
Ya Aly madad.
Thank you Believer
Very well expressed and explained. Your explanation is spot on! It puts all questions and dilemmas to rest. The whole situation is very painful is it not? Especially now that vancouverite is insisting that councils should initiate excommunication proceedings and disciplinary actions against the defendants. We must all pray for them.
Will our leaders stop at nothing? This is indeed very disheartening.
Excommunication hearings!!
Interesting to read calls for excommunication proceedings which require a hearing as per our Constitution. They would present their evidence against us, and we would be able to present our evidence to counter theirs. I have already planned out my defence at the hearing of excommunication: my chief witness at the hearing will be Mawlana Hazar Imam.
Since he granted us a Mulakat and essentially confirmed all of what we were saying (except the annotation of Farmans (which He offered to produce to us if we want them) he is a material witness. It will be interesting to see how the hearing to excommunicate turn out after MHI comes to give evidence on our behalf. I wonder, will they again subject the Imam to take oath before testifying on our behalf? At the discoveries on Oct 15, I asked Gray not to subject the Imam to take an oath (or affirmation) yet they refused my request and he insisted that MHI must Affirm before sitting down.
Excommunication hearings!!
@Alnaz, Do you know as a lawyer why HH had to take oath on Oct 15 discovery ?? Because this discovery was ordered by the courts and and the law states that when you take the stand you have to take the oath . In your eyes it was "mulakat" seeing/meeting the Imam, but generally speaking it was meeting ordered by the.courts
Be-adabi
Dear Brother Alnaz, I am not very happy with your comment. You seem to be getting above yourself. To quote your own words, our Imam is the Lord of the Worlds and when referring to the Imam, appropriate use of language is extremely necessary. I understand your emotions and feelings but you have expressed yourself with inappropriate language. It would be nice if you were to write that excommunication proceedings will never succeed because you have full faith that Imam will protect you and save you, but it is certainly not suitable to write that you will call the Imam as your witness. I do not agree with such Beadabi and as your peer I ask you to behave yourself. Refrain from getting carried away and crossing the boundary into arrogant territory. Remain humble and keep on praying for Mowla's protection and mercy. Do not hang on to justice. But ask for mercy.
Yours indignantly,
Sister Zeenatara
Zeenatara Re: Alnaz
Sister Zeenatara, I agree with you about the language we should use
when adressing Mowla, but I think you have misunderstood Alnaz when
he said he will call Mowla to be the witness. What Alnaz (probably) meant
was he will call Mowla spiritually not physically.
Dear Babu
I did say that I understand Alnaz's emotions and feelings but using the word "witness" for Mowla whether spiritually or physically is still inappropriate.
The expression is "God is my
The expression is "God is my witness" it is a common expression for those who understand "Imam is my witness."
Dear Umed
Huff and puff!
Dear Umed, stop annoying me. "As God is my witness" is of course a commonly used expression when one wants to emphasise the truth in one's statement. But that is just not how Alnaz phrased his words
You have received a lot of support for your cause. Do not let this all go to ruin by becoming proud and/or bitter. Also, the mulaqat was a great privilege for you. Don't take it for granted that Hazar Imam will appear physically on your behalf all the time. You should not even want this. If you believe Him to be the Lord of the Worlds then pray for His spiritual help and protection and He WILL help you, protect you and get you through the worst of situations. Nothing is more powerful than prayer. But prayers only work with humility, sincerity and dedication. I am not lecturing. I am speaking from personal experience. Imam is all knowing and when a true Murid asks for His help, He will never turn His back. But keep adab at all times.
Also, however right a person is, he must pray for mercy rather than justice. A small story here to illustrate this point:
A man, who according to himself, was good through and through and upon checking himself could not pinpoint any instance when he had done anything wrong in this world. On his death, he was asked by God whether he wanted justice or mercy for the time he spent on earth. Being very sure of himself he asked for justice. God then banished him to hell. Shocked by this, he fell at God's feet and begged for an explanation. So God said, on a particular day as you were walking home you threw a nail on the path. At that time you thought nothing of this and went on with your life. But do you know, a short time later an animal wandering through that path got wounded by that nail sticking into its paw. The animal, crazy with rage and pain, mauled to death a woodcutter who was making his way home along that path. The death of the woodcutter resulted in his family starving for days on end, to the extent that his wife committed suicide leaving her two children orphaned. Some townsfolk then took the woodcutter's daughter away and sold her to a brothel where she spent the rest of her life as a prostitute. The woodcutter's son....
At this time, the man started crying loudly, begging God for mercy saying that he had made a mistake in thinking that his life had been perfect. I am just saying that everyone should always remain humble and should beg for mercy, no matter how right we feel we may be. Dear Brother Alnaz, I respect you as a devout follower of the Imam an therefore I humbly request you to be careful about how you are using language to express your opinions. I take this opportunity to thank Sister Kanize for her kind words.
Love to all,
Sister Zeenatara
@Zeenataara Allahrakhya re: above post (Dear Babu, Jan. 26th)
786
Thank you for bringing this up, Zeenatara: I must say I had felt very disturbed about the wording used by Alnaz (and continue to feel uneasy whenever I remember it) but I did not know how to express my feeling or whether I should express it at all or not...
Take care. Ya Aly madad.
Talikas only in USA canada and UK
Yes, there was no read "Talika" in France... This is like the announcement read in April. Alnaz, thank you for your post, we completely agree with you. This is again fishy.
Announcement (purported Talika)
Previously two Talikas were sent to Nagib, which were not signed by the Imam.
The Purported Talika read in jamat khana cannot be signed and sent by MHI because the contents of the said Talika are contradictory to the information given to us personally by the Imam on Oct 15, 2010.
I cannot believe that the imam would tell us something and then tell the jamats something completely different, contradictory to what he said to us personally. Do you or anyone else believe that the imam would do such a thing?
The purported Talika relies on the judge's reasons while the judge made his decision primarily on speculating about MHI's presence without evidence of what was actually said by MHI, and on speculating what the Imam meant when the Imam said, 'continue doing....' and the judge speaks of expert evidence to explain mehmani and gestures, but we Ismailis (excluding SS and AB and their likes, read their evidence) ought to know what mehmani means and the gestures and words of the Imam. A judge cannot overrule or supersede imam's words.
What is also important is this:
If MHI did send the two Talikas to Nagib, a letter from his brother, issue the claim, send an announcement in jks via LIF, sign the affirmation,
then his appearance on Oct 15 would be to give us the same message in person, as we were refusing to accept all of the above as forged, or not being from Him.
The purported Talika strangely is silent on the Oct 15 mulakat. Why?
Assuming that He had given us the SAME message on Oct 15 as all the previous information mentioned above (implied to be so if the read Talika was sent by Him), would the imam not be furious with us defying Him by refusing to abide by His Farman delivered to us personally by Him on Oct 15, after which we continued the litigation? And the Talika is completely silent about this point.
People were not present on Oct 15 to hear what MHI said, but I heard Him with my own eyes and ears, and as such I know that our Imam would not lie in Talikas or would not tell us one thing and then tell the jamats another thing. Bush and other leaders have done these type of things to deceive others, but not Imams, they would not stoop to such behavior.
There are many reasons for my saying that the Talika is not from the imam, but I will point out a reason or so (more detailed points will be disclosed in due course):
MHI specifically told us (twice) on Oct 15, that imam's farmans 'cannot be changed', and this is in accordance with our tariqah - guidance is not from Aga Khan but from 'noor', yet the Claim in court says he has long standing tradition to edit. He specifically contradicted the allegations made in the claim on Oct 15. Therefore the claim cannot be from him.
On Oct 15 he could have but DID NOT say at all that he wrote the two Talikas sent to Nagib and that he signed the Affirmation. We made such serious allegations against his officers (not his staff it is an error to say we accused his staff of forgery) and he did not tell us we were wrong in making the accusations and he never asked us to apologize to SS for making 'false' allegations. Isnt it Because he never signed them that he did not ask us to apologize for making false allegations.
Notice that since February when Nagib first raised the issue of forged Talika sent to him, MHI has never publicly supported or backed SS, and also did not tell us on Oct 15 that SS and others were acting on his instructions. Not even a hint.
This forged Talika is an attempt by themselves to redeem their names which MHI has not done so to date.
On the contrary, MHI did make negative comments about leadership in London Golden Jubilee Farman (the Farman read to jks was changed despite MHI's specifically telling us otherwise), has anyone wondered why did the imam publicly speak against the leaders and yet publicly did not support them against allegations of fraud made by us.
All the documents and now a purported Talika (sent because I emphatically told the judge that MHI has not made any public Farmans or even sent a Talika to the jamats telling the jamats not to distribute, buy, or print farmans, etc, and the judge had asked the lawyer why has HH not made any such public farman. This purported talika is in response to that question, nothing else) are sent by the same persons who forged the initial Talikas.
I am also surprised that the Imam did not mention about the 1992 Mehmani and explain his direction given to Karim Alibhai to 'continue doing....', which the judge speculated about what the imam might have meant. The imam also did not speak about the previous Farman books published by Nagib.
After all, we have been saying that the Farmans were distributed after the 1992 mehmani, so why did the imam not speak about that mehmani and explain what was meant by him.
Why did the imam not acknowledge that the murids did print the farmans relying on the 1992 mehmani and why not speak about why he was not concerned about the matters then, and why is he concerned now and was concerned then.
I am not at all surprised by the events taking place.
By the way, in our history false Talika has been read in jamatlhanas to appoint a false imam.
@Alnaz re: above post of Dec. 23rd
786
Thank you ever so much for this post, Alnaz!
After hearing the first two lines of the announcement made in Jamat Khanè on the 21st, I knew right away that it was not a talika from Mowlana Hazer Imam!
My worst fear has now materialized: the leaders can now go as far as sending a false talika to the Jamat and do mass misleading.
More than ever before, every parent ought to pray for the "iman ni salaamati" of every member of their family...
The Kaljug that had entered our home (the Jamat) has now settled in our home. Mowla rakshaa karè, ameen.
Ya Aly madad.
I m not denying what Alnaz
I m not denying what Alnaz wrote (with all due respect to her in her personal capacity)... but can we be fooled so easily. There has to be something more to it then this. There are people in Jamaat who silently work for Imam directly without being in leadership role- cant they not update imam with this. Imam is not ignorant towards what happening in jamats around the world.
TALIKA
It seems the purported Talika read out only in all the Jamatkhanas of USA, Canada, and UK on Friday 18th February. However, there is no such Talika read out in JKs of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, UAE etc. Dr. SS, MM, AB should know that there are many youngsters in all these countries who are regular surfers of the Heritage site. It seems, these our top leaders have failed to convince the LIF leaders of these countries to read out such purported Talika.
You mean Friday 21st January
You mean Friday 21st January 2011, not February, we are not yet in ;-)
And as to SS failing to convince other leaders, do not count on this, he just has to convince one person in LIF and the announcement will go all over the place.
Talikas only in USA canada and UK
Can anyone please confirm that ?
My information says it was a Talika for all Global Jamats .
Allahu Alim.
No it was only an
No it was only an announcement in 4 Countries: USA, Canada, UK, Kenya.
Under Kenya Council there are Jamats of several countries however this time it was not addressed to Kenya + these other countries under its jurisdiction, just Kenya and in history of East African Talikas, this is an exception. Obviously the choice of these 4 countries speaks volumes about which Council presidents are loyal to SS..
Now of course there is an agenda which we already know, so look for the follow-up and lets all laugh together...
before we laugh
@ brother Umed
can you as a web/news site , visited by many , many 1000's of ismaili murids please check or confirm in what countries the Talikas were read to jamtats.or NOT read.?
Then we can debate and discuss the why or why not ? Lets get facts first , please .
Can any Golbal Ismaili , amongst 15 Million , confirm that the Holy Talika of Imam-e-Zaman dated 21st january 2010 was read in your respective jamatkhanas ?
4 countries verified
I have verified these 4 countries RDC [Congo], Belgium, France and Pakistan where I am told the "Talika" was not read. And we know that in Nairobi, the "Talika" read was not addressed to the "greater" Kenya :-) Jamat as it is usually so we know Jamats such as Rwanda, Burundi, South Africa did not get it also..
Maybe if we put some pressure, they will read it everywhere ;-)
Re: annoucement
I was not able to attend jk today, Can someone post the gist of the announcement
Thank you
Comments
Bloglaw
A Summary of Talika and need for some information, guidance and clarification.
This is not and should not be seen as questioning, but merely seeking of information similar to Farmans when being analysed by scholars Leaders and Al Waezeen as part of communication processes of all material and spiritual guidance and directions to the Jamat. This will have been done or is being done, Including for may be the current Leadership Orientation sessions ongoing globally.
Imam said that the Jamat are aware, Imam initiated a lawsuit in 2010 against the unauthorised publication of a book of his Farmans and Talikas. Imam did so in order to protect the integrity of Imams Farmans and Talikas. If Imam did, then Is this because Imam does not trust his murids? or because Imam had incomplete or inaccurate information from leaders ?
Imam added that historically Imam has and Imams have always tried to ensure all communications from Imams forwarded to murids are received genuine as released and coming directly from Imams without alteration, during times of war and also in times of peace.This also means all Farman received by Murids will therefore be authentic and unedited Farmans or annotated Farmans. Why Imam refers to times of War and peace in this Talika?
Imam added that Imam initiated the lawsuit as a last resort and after Imam wrote 2 private communications to the murids which Imam drafted and signed. Imam added that the murids did not abide by Imams wishes. Imam added that Imam wished and wanted this issue to be resolved privately and under the Imam-Murid relationship with the murids but this was not possible. imam refers to murids yet letter was to one Murid. Also in an Imam- Murid relationship would not then Imam have met spoken to them for 5 minutes and when Imam did give directions on 15th Oct. Are this consistent with them?
The Talika continues that the Federal court of Canada which is a competent court, has issued a judgement to protect any unauthorised publication of Imams Farmans and Talikas. Imam says this principle of copyright protection of Farmans is of profound importance for the Imamat and jamat, and which Imams wishes to defend. This was achieved with copyright registration and this was not challenged in the lawsuit.
Imam added that in order to protect this principle of protecting the copyright of Imams Farmans and talikas murids have given their lives in the past. Why did Imam say this? Is there a historical precedent of murids trying to protect the principle of or copyright of Farmans. May be Imam is referring to time of Dia's.
Imam continues that Imam has set up institutions for publication of Farmans. And, Imam reserves the prerogative and right regarding content and timing of farmans and talikas. Imam adds that this is complex due to the need to translate Farmans and Talikas and use them in 7 or more languages and related specific situations. Therefore farmans in English with annotations are not in any way complex. Why is Imam seemingly needing or trying to justify his authority and prerogative to murids and the 2 murids who Imam calls his murids and who have said they will give up everything for their Imam?
Imam says Imam wishes murids (meaning Nagib and Alnaz) not to prolong this matter any longer. Imam gave directions on 15 th Oct 2010. Are they consistent with this request. And have not the 2 murids obeyed and complied fully.?
Imam continues that there have been unfounded allegations made against some leaders, some of Imam,s staff and Imam's lawyers. Imam wishes to inform murids that they were acting in accordance with Imam,s wishes. Imam is referring to the lawsuit. Is the consent signed by the 2 murids as directed by Imam? What did Imam say and direct on 15 Oct 2010? (not only legally speaking but inclusively speaking as an Ismaili Murid )
Imam ends by giving His affectionate and best loving blessings to ALL murids of the UK jamat - Is this Talika only for UK Jamat or the same globally and addressed to each President and members individually.
Therefore, there are issues which need some explanation by Leaders or scholars of this Talika- Farman. i assume this will have been provided to the local Leadership and Al Waez's ( assuming the Talika is issued and signed by Imam and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that but I'm view of the situation and lawsuit this is an understandable concern)
Talika says Imam initiated the lawsuit and
Imam drafted and signed the 2 private communications
Imam does not say all Books distributed are to be returned of the last one referred to in the Talika or the earlier volumes
Imam says the lawsuit was initiated to protect the integrity of Farmans and later in the Talika Imam informs us of the profound importance of the judgement in protecting Imamat copyright and therefore authority and prerogative institutionally and as Imam. This is some what confusing and needs clarification by Leaders or an Al Waez
Imam did not say Imam edits his Farmans Therefore Imam does not do so.
Imam says Imam wishes the institutions Imam has set up to publish Farmans because Farmans need to be translated into 7 or more languages. This is embodied in the constitution and Imams authority and prerogative has never been questioned by the murids. May be Imam means communicate Farmans and give access to Farmans ?
Imam,s Talika Is regarding the latest publication by Nagib - not regarding the earlier publications. Imams Talika is about protecting copyright in the future which has not been challenged in the lawsuit.
Imam refers to 2 letters sent to murids and that the murids did not obey or abide by them. The letters were sent to Nagib. Not to Alnaz. May be this was in error in drafting or typing. No reference to any directions on 15th Oct 2020 ?
Imam says this judgement protects the principle of Imams and Imamate's copyright and authority to publish Farmans and talikas in future
Imam has not said specifically
Imam did not authorise or did not give consent to the first volume of the book in 1992 in the Mehmani. This therefore respects the sanctity of Mehmani . is that correct?
Imam did not say all the publications by Nagib Tajdin or by murids since 1992 were unauthorised. Alnaz was not involved in the Publications. He has admitted distribution of some books to his Ismaili friends and family. This also may be a drafting or a typing error.
Imam has not said that we should not share farmans and guidance amongst ourselves or that leaders should not give access to the jamat
Imam has not said Imam does not annotate Farmans or that Imam edits his own Farman
Imam does not say Farmans should not be followed until after they are edited or published. If that was so, then that brings into question this Talika - Farman too. Hence some uncertainty.
When comparing this Talika to other Farmans and Talikas or even to Imams speeches generally. This overall to me seems to have some a different feeling. And with unusual reinforcing repetitions, and sequential chronology, and with a number of contradictions which can be attributed to either being different or a departure s. That may be simply because this is unprecedented or is a surprising departure or for other reasons, which we do not know.
Imam wishes the murids should not prolong this matter meaning not to appeal. This therefore will also mean or assumed that Leaders and The lawyers will have been directed not to issue any fresh motions or other legal or institutional proceedings against 2 of Imams Imams
Imam did not make any reference to directions given on 15th October 2010 or Imam's wish for everyone to work together in the future etc
Finally Imam refers to Alnaz and Nagib not by name but as IMAM'S MURIDS and refers to the Imam- Murid relationship. This is significant and important for all of us.
The above is a recollection of the Farman from listening and some discussions from memory. There is no way that by listening to it once in JK, anyone can fully completely and accurately remember or understand or share this Talika with family and friends. We therefore need access to & to read at least a few times to fully completely and accurately understand and internalise, as in case of Farmans generally.
I hope this Talika was or will be explained to the Jamat institutionally and assuming Imam will have shared Imams thoughts too on any clarification by any of the President Sahebs/ans, and this I hope would be by a unifying and supporting announcements, or local explanations, also to ensure clarity.
Since this Talika has a specific direction for the 2 murids in question I assume a signed copy will have been given each of them to read and study. I hope also with a suggestion and offer from the Leaders to meet and discuss with related matters and directions of MHI
If I have made any errors in what Imam has directed and said or not in this Talika. I seek forgiveness from everyone and I stand to be corrected.If you have the same or any other concerns I am sure leaders will be able to clarify regarding this Talika and related matters. We should feel comfortable to seek information.
I also hope and pray that this lawsuit is not prolonged and concluded without any delay in accordance with the wishes and directions of Hazar Imam. deserve respect as do all murids.
The above is a recollection of this Farman from hearing it once and some discussions with a few friends and family
I hope this Talika was or will be explained to the Jamat institutionally, assuming Imam will have shared Imams thoughts too, and this would be by a unifying and supporting announcement to ensure clarity.
Since this also has a specific direction for the 2 murids in question a copy will have been given each of them to read and study this Talika.
If I have made any errors in my understanding or recollections of what Imam has directed and said or not said, then I seek forgiveness from one and all, and of course I stand to be corrected.
I also hope and pray that this lawsuit is not prolonged and concluded in accordance with the wishes and directions of Hazar Imam, and as soon as possible
Obviously another stunt by SS
Obviously a real Talika would not contradict what the Imam said again and again, only fools will believe this was a "Talika."
You are right it was not read in all the countries as it would be normally, only in countries where Nagib and Alnaz are know.
I have seen both unsigned copies and signed photocopies (we all know how it is done) and many people were laughing at the content which was so obviously written by SS&co and in their style. Obvious for Ismailis of course, obvious to those who know how Talikas (real ones) are sent and how they are written and the language of the Imam. For all others they better ask the Imam who sent this purported "talika"
I would call it
I would call it announcement, not Talika. Unless you believe that Imam's vocabulary has suddenly changed. One should ask the following question: What does this announcement achieve other then completing the threats of SS on defendants reputation? Nothing really, unless one is day-dreaming. So much unlike Hazar Imam.
announcement or talika ?
announcement (əˈnaʊnsmənt) noun
1. a public statement
2. a brief item or advertisement, as in a newspaper
3. a formal printed or written invitation
4. the act of announcing
Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Ed
Talika: from Statement of Defence of 23april2009 (3.) Definitions # j.
>> "Talika means a written message sent to Jamat by the Imam and read in Jamatkhanas. Talika can also be sent to individuals. " <<<
Let your visitors decide what they heard in Jamatkhanas on Friday 21st January 2010 . Thank you.
Allahu Alim.
Thanks for the definition.
Thanks for the definition. better use Oxford Dictionary but do not make it a best seller ;-)
How cold is it in Ottawa? Minus something? enough to freeze the birds?
Thanks for allowing me to participate
Alhamdullilah. Brother Umed thank you for letting me post and participate here. We might disagree yet we dialogue and debate in a civil manner.
Thanks for "tracking" that I am in Ottawa...i dont deny that or hide that . It was the coldest nite of this winter last nite.@ minus - 33 centigrade . Inshallah , Allah Taala , inshallah , will protect the birds from freezing .
I note that Alnaz has posted his version of the recent Holy Mumbarak Talika of Imam-e-Zaman. I wont comment here before patiently re-reading and reflecting .
Allahu Alim.
The announcement will
The announcement will probably be posted here in a couple of days Inshallah
posting of announcement or purported "HOLY" TALIKA
Is that going to happen ?
Bloglaw has already given
Bloglaw has already given some summary of the announcement "Talika"
If we can get all of these announcements, I will post all of them here. It has only been sent to 4 countries.
@Librarian-umed re post of Jan. 22
786
Thank you for using the word "announcement", brother Umed.
Ya Aly madad.
Response to Chai
SS pushing the Imam during Golden Jubilee is not a perception but a fact. I have seen this happening with my own eyes. Refer to my open letter to SS. So something which I have seen with my own eyes cannot be a perception but a fact, dear brother Chai. And after reading SS's testimony, his thoughts and beliefs, the fact that he is still serving the Imam is a testament to our beloved Imam's infinite mercy and patience and big heartedness.
Not convinced...
In what ways was he "pushing him around"? There can be many sides to a story. And Hazar Imam's constant praise for his leaders and volunteers are quite contrary to what you're saying. Hazar Imam maybe Merciful, and big hearted, but he would never allow anybody at any cost to compromise the Jamat. If what you're saying is true, then allowing SS to continue to serve him to this day does not add up.
Announcement
Have there been any new developements in this lawsuit?
Purported Talika Tonight
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30533
Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!
Purported Talika Tonight
I read comment about Talika. This is a big development. I hope this is THE END and matter is closed
Our spiritual path is already encoded by Mawlana Hazar Imam.
YAM, MR. BLOGLAW! “Life is a pure flame and we live by an invisible Sun.” - Sir Thomas Brown. Our spiritual path is already encoded by Mawlana Hazar Imam. It is a reality and we do not have to look for and search for it. If we can balance our material and spiritual life, it becomes very easy for us to meet our quest! Spirituality is divine. But when we seek this divine path, we have to understand that the divinity is around us. We have to invoke this mysticism by way of accepting the humanity! There are many hurdles for this guidance but if we train ourselves to accept it virtuously then the hurdles are gradually removed to make our path smooth. Ismaili Muslims Tariquah has already enlightened us about the spiritual and the divine aspects of a human life. We can spiritually become stronger and with meditation we can achieve inner peace and satisfaction. Our Ginan have explained our esoteric and exoteric lives very vividly. But this wonderful traditions is not yet grasp to awaken the divine that is in us! The dynamism of meditation requires us to release ourselves of external dominating force. Thus knowing ourselves inwardly can open this mystic in our daily life! Allah Hafez, Nizar Ali K. Shivji!
Zak says in vancouverite :
Zak says in vancouverite : "If I place one “counterfeit 20 shilling bill” in a friends memhmani { i wouldnt but for arguements sake lets say I did } . Can I then distribute / use the rest of the 100′s of other $ 20 bills i had printed . ? and if not caught can I now print some $ 100 shilling notes and distribute them too…claiming indirect implied consent from a spiritual ceremony of my faith ?
Law of land prevails. It has in this case , Copyrights were infringed." Allahu Alim.
Reply by bloglaw
Very creative Zak It is counterfeit dollars for you and for Editor Daggers and Aga Khan brand chocolates :)
No one is saying the law of the land does not prevail.
The question is what is the meaning and significance of our rites and practices especially Mehmani ? You too I suggest spend a few hours with a scholar/Waezeen to understand what it means to other Ismailies (even if you dont believe in it or don't understand it) Maybe if you are in same city as Editor you can do so together ? See my question to Editor -The same question to you - will you then agree ? By the way I note you have used the word as Allahu Alim to end your comment ? Is that a joke or do you really mean and why use Alim and not any other I wonder ?
I believe the defendants... because:
chai asks " How can we be for certain that MHI actually said that others can keep the book?"
I believe the defendants about keeping the book... because:
- The defendants are vigilant about following Imam's words to the letter, and consistently reject any change in instruction that does not authentically come from Imam Himself. How would they change what Imam said to them in Discovery?
- They have sought out Farmans, which is the duty of every ismaili, otherwise there is no point of having a living Imam.
- They have remained honest and true to the Imam and to His authentic Word.
- They have maintained a goal of accuracy in the compilation, so there is no malice or manipulation of Farmans, here.
- They have respect for Imam's word, rather than to say like SS that it needs to be edited.
- They have rejected any attempt to change the Imam's word by others.
- They have rejected any doubtful communication purporting to be from the Imam.
- They have dedicated 20 years of work on a single order to them at Mehmani - that's respect for Imam's word!
- They have never acted disrespectfully toward Him even when they had the chance to corner Him at discovery.
- They have kept their principles without worrying about their standing, their reputation, their finances.
- They have not been caught in lies and hiding the truth like SS and AB have in their cross-examinations.
- They have never pushed Imam around in public like SS did during Golden Jubilee.
- They have not conducted mass meetings and phonecalls to sway people's minds like Manji has, first claiming in Jamatkhanas that forgery claims are bogus because others are allowed to sign for the Imam, and changing his story according to who he was talking to. Imam would never need to resort to such tactics to gather support.
- They have even been threatened by the Lawyer before he acted on his threat to make the "Affirmation" public. Imam does not need to resort to this.
By keeping my copy of the Farman book, I get to experience the words of the Imam exactly as they were spoken, in the context of the full Farman, in the context of the Farmans that came before and after it. It feels like I was present at every Didar. What a treasure! Shukhar!
Not quite..
"They have never pushed Imam around in public like SS did during Golden Jubilee"
Are you suggesting that Hazar Imam is weaker than his Murids as to allow being "pushed around" by them?
"I get to experience the words of the Imam exactly as they were spoken"
How do you know they are "exactly" the way MHI spoke them? They are human beings, they could have very well made a errors.
"They have respect for Imam's word, rather than to say like SS that it needs to be edited."
MHI appointed SS. I am certain that if he felt that murids were compromising the jamat in anyway, he would take swift action. As it stands, SS is still serving...
Imam Hussein allowed Shimar
Imam Hussein allowed Shimar to murder him. it was a test for all of the people who watched him. i am sure you are not suggesting Imam Hussein was weak not that you are capable of understanding why Imam Hussein did that when he could have easily escape death.
I don't see the parallel
It is a fact that Imam Hussein got murdered. However, the notion that SS pushes MHI around in public is your perception...
@Librarian-umed re post of Jan. 21
786
Touché, Umed !! Thank you ! :-)
Ya Aly madad.
"Murshid-Murid Relationship"
Ya Ali Madad. During Our Beloved Hazar Imam's Padhrami, even if His Murid is sitting in the corner of the Darbar Hall, He will pass near him/her, and have an eye contact with that Murid of His, that is "Murshid-Murid Relationship". He sees through each an every one of us. He even knows what is in our minds, especially during "Mehmani', only few of His Murids will know who He is? He knows everything. Thank You.
Is mehMani meaningless ?
Editor of vancouverite says Mehmani is meaningless. My response. Editor your argument to Sadrudin is totally flawed and therefore wrong because when you say that the book and therefore all items presented in the mehmani became meaningless because Imam did not pick it up or read the book or chose to, or chose not to take it and handed it back. Imam is known to take for example envelopes sealed.
I appreciate to you this is so and therefore to you all mehmanis are therefore meaningless and purely symbolic too. Therefore what about every other symbolic practice you perform when you go into JK?
Imam says I am always with you, to you what does that mean. More important what does that mean to us all. Seriously I would urge you to spend a few hours with a senior Al Waeez to discuss snd understand and more importantly it's significance and how most murids understand our rites and practices. And in particular mehmani. You seem to be giving a similar view to that oDr Sachedina and the judge who at least says he does not understand it and did not have expert evidence before him.
Imam also says our rites practices and traditions are a part of our faith and we must “live our faith” which is as a part of our daily lives. This of course leaving aside out ethics and values which are also a part of and reflect our faith.
That is why your conclusions in my view are totally wrong.
I agree with you regarding the possible reasons for a comparison and generally comparing as a basis
To understand differences and SP respecting differences including your understanding of Mehmani and of most other ismailies and respecting them as the judge did in his reasons.
"Our interpretation about the Mehmani"
YAM, MR. BLOGLAW! Regarding your interpretation about the Mehmani, I totally agree with you. The Mehmani in Ismaili Muslims Religion is not symbolic. It is a down-to-earth practical gesture offered to the Imam of the time. There are many reasons on Mehmani. The Mehmani is established since time of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.w.). Normally during the acceptance of Mehmani, the Imam of the time will accept the Mehmani in required decorum and dignity because Mehmani deserve the demureness! The Murid who is presenting the Mehmani to his Murshid is required to follow all the rules and regulations in presence of his Murshid. Mawlana Hazar Imam will accept the Mehmani in good faith and conviction. But the inner thoughts of the Murid should not commit a breach or fall foul in with presumption that it is consent or an approval from Murshid to Murid. During the presentation of the Mehmani, Mawlana Hazar Imam is presented by some Murid with sealed envelopes or items which are placed on Mehmani plate. Mawlana Hazar Imam may accept the seal envelope and hand it over to the Mukhi Saheb who is standing near Hazar Imam. But there is no certainty that the Murid who has presented a sealed envelope will merit a reply from Mawlana Hazar Imam. We, the Ismaili Muslims are very fortunate in terms of daily simplified ritual during our daily prayers in Ismaili Muslims Jamatkhana. Allah Hafez, Nizar Ali K. Shivji!
This case is different..
In this case, the Mehmani was not just some symbolic action.
The Imam spent the time to take a long look at the book where the title said "Farmans 1957-1991, Volume 1", He put his hand on it, and in answer to the question "What else can we do for the Imamat", He said "Continue what you are doing, Succeed in what you are doing..." He said it as if He knew exactly what he was saying, and He said it in the form of an order.
How would true murids live their life after that, would they stop what they were doing until an edited instruction came to them from ITREB? Or would they continue doing exactly what they were doing because Imam said so?..
Why are they so quiet?
I have been following the arguments and twist and turns of this case since its inception. But so far I have been a bystander, looking in from the side. Can someone tell me why SS and MM have abandoned Vancouverite now?
After the bombshell announcement in JKs and the lawsuit, SS and MM made themselves available to Vancouverite for interviews to disseminate information to influence public opinion. They went to the extent of giving their lawyer permission to be interviewed by Vancouverite. Mr. Gray would not divulge information about the case without the client’s permission. SS and MM were obviously ‘driving’ the lawsuit and making the decisions. If MHI were in the ‘driver’s seat’ regarding the lawsuit, he would not need to mobilize public opinion as he has said (Farman) that he seeks the truth in all matters, and truth does not require public support. On the contrary, seeking public support is divisive and detrimental.
So where are SS and MM now? They have not said a single word about their mulaqat with MHI on Oct 15 and neither are they refuting NT’s and AJ’s version of events. This has left Vancouverite in a lurch as the source of information has dried up. Now the fanatics are fanning the fires.
In my mind, MHI was very gracious to NT and AJ on October 15. He did speak very kindly to them and asked that they do not proceed with forgery allegations against his senior officials, off course because there were issues with the forgery. He agreed to let the distributed books not be recalled and gave an implicit approval to ismaili.net. In my mind this was a vindication for NT and AJ and the judgement (by the Judge) was of a lesser consequence. On the contrary MHI had to tell SS and MM each to ‘speak with one voice’. They were being told diplomatically not to contradict MHI and to listen to ‘his voice’. Obviously MHI was displeased with SS and MM, who instead of resolving the issues proceeded with the Summary Judgment. So why are SS and MM so quiet now?
"We all cannot divulge into Murshid-Murid relationship!"
YAM, MR. IMAN! We all cannot divulge into Murshid-Murid relationship! Your religious belief is all yours. It is very difficult to change a person who has practiced his/her faith in accordance with Ismaili Muslims Tariquah or in accordance with the tradition of their ancestors. The most important factor here is you are steadfast and resolute in your belief in your Murshid. I have presented my thoughts and comments in Ismaili.Net and the Vancouverite with my belief and conviction. I have disregarded any negative comments from any web sites because like I have said in what I would prefer to practice in what I have preached! The Ismaili Muslims leadership has been appointed to execute their undertaking in accordance with the Ismaili Muslims Tariquah. This leadership is conscious about their responsibilities and what it entails but if they are not up it then they should not accept these responsibilities! I understand it is a voluntary position, unpaid, demanding, and charitable but the service in professionalism has not to be compromised under any pretext. These leaders have come forward to offer their service to Imam of the time and the Ismaili Muslims Community at large! Their perks are in their satisfaction and in being with the close proximity of the Imam of the time. Nobody has any right to silence and brand anybody! If you conduct yourself within the Charter of Rights, let the critic do the disparagement at his-her peril! Allah Hafez, Nizar Ali K. Shivji!
Mehmani a Bogus says Editor
Nizar, We are agreed on Mehmani. Most Ismailies are agreed. Why is the Editor of Vancouverite and his group belittling and insulting the significance of mehmani. He could have and did not get an Al waez or scholar to clarify it to him as I requested earlier? He, SS and MM seem to say the same. Editor responds below and shows his anger and disdain by making a reference to a DAGGER as an example in a mehmani, suggesting criminality by inference. What a shame and how sad coming from an Ismaili professional ? Where is the respect for the views and understanding of others in majority, and of our practices.
News Editor says : "....The idea that you can take whatever that you have in your mind and not discuss it and consider that it is known and approved is seriously flawed as you’ve already discovered. Mehmani is a deeply spiritual experience for most Ismailis – for many a once in a lifetime occasion to appear in front of their spiritual guide. The offering itself is symbolic. Therefore, to read into it that you can take a book or a dagger or anything else and that you can use that as consent for anything is bogus. ......""
BLOGLAW replies.
Editor ; There was a mehmani The book was within it. . Imam saw the book and accepted the Mehmani . There was a conversation. The time given by Imam was longer. Mukhi Saheb and All Leaders were present. This was a recorded event. No one objected to 4 volumes for 18 years. Leaders have and use them. The mehmani and its significance spiritually and temorally, and its secular nature is similar to that of a covenant and is more than the secular meaning of the conversation as reported in the lawsuitand Imam knows and knows best and that he does not need to look at the content because he has implicit and explicit trust and confidence in his Murids, and in this case bith spiritually and temporally and If Imam had any doubt Imam would have taken the book and handed it to the Mukhi Saheb next to his with an instrution or guidance. Imam then gave guidance and directions on 15th Octobwer 2010 too.
Question to the Editor ; As an Ismaili, would you agree and change your mind and show respect for an Ismaili scholar and or an Al Waeez who confirms the above as an expert ? The Jugde would have of course done so. IN fact if the Judge had known Nagib and or Alnaz was a MUkhi Saheb and that was secularly explained he may have ruled differently.. I doubt you, SS or MM would agree. You will probably say you know better ? Your addition of a "dagger" as an example is very unfortunate and speaks a volume of your thinking and if you are projecting the thinking of the top leaders then theirs too.!
Nizar we all have a divine
Nizar we all have a divine spark which is a part of and has a special individual relationship with the divine and all other divine sparks and divinity.
Monotralism, which has been explained wonderfully by MSMS in Mawla,s memoirs. We are also reminded our faith is a part of our life and our life a part of faith Hence the need for balance of din and dunya.
We do and can discuss all aspects with our Al Waezeens and MK including spirituality, soul and eternity. Unfortunately because of wanting to maintain the status quo or being un able to explain and articulate we have historically and traditionally been told and taught that this is personal and should not be discussed or divulged or kept confidential
I personally have no issues in discussing all and do for hours on end happily with comfort. I feel blessed I am able to and to share when given the opportunity.
I hope the above thoughts will make you reflect and I am not saying what you beleive or your views on your belief
and relationship with your Murshid and the divine is wrong, maybe be somewhat different which we must all respect. Have a happy day and weekend.I would recommend you to read even if you have that chapter of the memoirs of MSMS
Job done
It is wrong to think that people who put their comments on this website are Mr Jiwa and Mr Tajdin's ' Group' as some people think in Vancouverite. We are entitled to have our own opinion. Most of us think that leadership is doing an excellent job. I know of leaders who sit in the meetings until 1.00 am in the morning be it for social welfare matter or arbitration mattter. Some them who have young families. Time and again Mr Jiwa and Mr Tajdin have been advised even on this end to let the matter rest. But no one can judge their Iman or how they are feeling about this whole issue.
Sometimes you see things around you and take a decision who do you want to support. London Padhramni - 35000 + jamat was present. Imam spoke about the leaders -whether what he said was conveyed to the jamat or not. 35000+ jamat clapped at the end of that sentence. After 3 months that particular sentence was taken out of the Farman when it was read in the jamatkhanas. Hmm.... Interesting Imam chose to edit that particular sentence.
I repeat again that people who have got 'KIZ' are the real winners. No appeal / reappeal,trial will change anything as the job has been done by Mr Jiwa and Mr Tajdin. As the judge rightly said about Imam stepping in his shoes. Let the Imam step in his shoes and the whole Ismaili Ummah will see what happens when Imam steps in his shoes. In the past the Imams used to send their Generals to fight some wars. If the Generals would feel there is no choice but to let Imam come and finish off the war then Imam used to come and finish the job.
Iman
Very well written and I appreciated very much. " Sometimes you see things around you and take a decision who do you want to support. London Padhramni - 35000 + jamat was present. Imam spoke about the leaders -whether what he said was conveyed to the jamat or not. 35000+ jamat clapped at the end of that sentence. After 3 months that particular sentence was taken out of the Farman when it was read in the jamatkhanas. Hmm.... Interesting Imam chose to edit that particular sentence. "