Are Farmans to be followed?

Mr Sachedina says that Farmans that we hear in Didars are not actually Farmans and are not to be followed. He maintains throughout his testimony that only the written edited versions sent by ITREB are actually Farmans. Later, Mr Sachedina has to admit that Farmans come from the Noor, the Light of God. Mr Bhaloo says that Talikas containing blessings are not Farmans.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #301:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. ... Would you agree with me, sir, and you said this earlier, that the jamats are obligated to follow the Imam's farmans and the Constitution?
A. Just as farmans that he has authorized for release to the jamat. Not any farmans. Absolutely what he had given for the jamat, which he has authorized for the jamat, and once he is the one who approves those farmans.

Sachedina #542 - #545:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. ... My question to you was that before Mr. Tajdin started distributing these farmans, there were many farmans that were not released by ITREB to the jamat khanas -- to local ITREBs to be read; correct?
A. Because Mowlana Hazar Imam had not authorized the release of those farmans through the process.
Q. So the answer is yes to that?
A. Yes. It was not released because he did not authorize the release.
Q. So you said earlier, if I understand correctly, that the farmans become definite after they are authorized by the Imam?
A. Absolutely. That's my understanding.
Q. And that by His Highness not authorizing, he doesn't want those farmans to be followed; correct?
A. Because they are not farmans. Actually, those farmans have not been authorized or released. That means they don't become effective, and, therefore, they are no longer farmans. They are not made as farmans.

Sachedina #511 - #514:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, His Highness, it appears from what you are saying, when he makes his farman, his oral farman, he comes to the jamat khana --
A. Extempore.
Q. Extempore.
--- Off-the-record discussion.
Q. And you are saying that after he approves and finalizes, then it becomes definitely farman?
A. Yes.
Q. Are jamats expected to follow the farman that he has already made, or do they wait until he has authorized the final version?
A. To me, the version that he has authorized become the farmans that are conveyed to the jamat with his authority. So even in my view, and it is my opinion, that even if you had been made aware of a farman to the jamat, the text that he releases after his review are the authorized farmans. Because they have gone the review process by the Imam himself, and he has therefore completed this where there have been -- no, he has reviewed them. If he requires anything, whatever he requires is done, and then in most cases, as I say, he goes through this process and then gets them released. So those are the only ones that are the farmans.

Sachedina #622 - #628
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. It's still read in jamat khanas usually 11th of July, the day of the Imamat --
A. Yes. That's the farman of the Imam.
Q. It's a farman which is a recognized farman; right? Can you confirm to me if 'Noor' means 'the Light'? And there is a surah in the Koran, a chapter in the Koran, about the Noor?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it the same Light?
A. The Light, yes.
Q. The Light. It's the Light of God --
A. Yes.
Q. -- which guides materially and spiritually?
A. The Noor of Allah, the Noor of God.
Q. Which guides materially and --
A. Yes.
Q. And this is guided through the Imam's love that Noor is guiding us. And since we are all from the same religion, we all believe in this; right?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).

Bhaloo #143:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin. `
Q. You would accept that the talika is a written farman?
A. Sometimes the talikas are blessings, not farmans.
Q. Oh, blessings are not farmans?
A. I told you that talikas are sometimes blessings given by the Imam to the individuals, but not instructions in farmans.

Are Ginans to be followed?

Mr. Sachedina maintains that Ginans are just devotional poetry and are not meant to be followed.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #140
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Must abide by, yes. And would you also agree with me that the jamat is also asked to obey and follow what's preached in the Ginans, g-i-n-a-n-s, so long as they are not contradicted by a current Imam?
A. Ginans are devotional poetry, and thus as poetry, it is not in a way incumbent for anybody to follow the ginans in the way that you describe. Ginans are, as I say, devotional poetry.

Sachedina#892 - #895
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. But you agreed that the Usul-e-deen farman, which is very well known in the community, says that farmans and ginans are the same?
A. As I said to you, this was by the past Imam, the 48th Imam.
Q. Is it valid or not?
A. As I said to you, my interpretation, and it is my personal interpretation, that I follow the guidance given by the present Imam always.

Are Previous Imams' Farmans to be Followed?

Mr Sachedina maintains that he does not follow Farmans of previous Imams.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #885 - #889:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Can I ask you to look at the second page of this. Have you heard of a farman that people refer to as the Usul-e-deen farman --
A. Yes.
Q. In the, not the last paragraph but just before that paragraph, I want to point to this: 'My Farmans themselves are the Ginans!' The Usul-e-deen farman is quite widely circulated in our jamat; do you agree with that?
A. This is -- again, I keep coming back, these are farmans from Sultan Muhammad Shah, and I always -- as I said to you, it is my position very clear, and it's my believe, that every time we look at, first of all, the farmans of the present Imam, they take precedence over any previous farman. And the Imam of the Time is the one -- the farmans that are, from our point of view, in our tariqa. We look at the present Imam's farmans.
Q. That's very good. Mr. Sachedina, would you agree that any farman which has not been superseded is still valid?
A. By the Imam -- living Imam.
Q. So let's say on July '57 the living Imam became Shah Karim, the present Imam. So the farman made two weeks ago by the previous Imam are no longer valid; is that what you are saying?
A. What I'm saying to you is our -- the farmans of -- Imam is Imam, is the present living Imam, and we, as the jamat Ismaili community, follow always the Imam of the Time. So those farmans are the ones that guide our life because he is the present Imam and he makes the farman. It is his farmans that we follow because we have given the bayat to the Imam of the Time.
Q. Thank you for this theological discourse. Now, let me tell you -- isn't it true that the Imam, when he became Imam, the present Imam said 'follow the farman of my grandfather' who was the previous Imam'; right? Isn't it true that he said that in his very first farmans?
A. Well, as I say, I cannot respond to that.

Sachedina #892 - #893:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. But you agreed that the Usul-e-deen farman, which is very well known in the community, says that farmans and ginans are the same?
A. As I said to you, this was by the past Imam, the 48th Imam.
Q. Is it valid or not?
A. As I said to you, my interpretation, and it is my personal interpretation, that I follow the guidance given by the present Imam always.

Has an Official Farman Book Publication Been Approved?

LIF's announcement in January 16, 2010, informed the jamats as follows: 'The Jamat will be pleased to be informed that Mawlana Hazar Imam has already approved that the Jamati institutions should formally publish a volume containing the approved text of his farmans, including those made for the Golden Jubilee.'
Is this announcement accurate? Mr Sachedina cannot pinpoint whether or when the approval for this official Farman book was given, and does not indicate that any work is under way to produce an official Farman book.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #390 - #402:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. 'The jamat would pleased to be informed that Molwana Hazar Imam has already approved that the Jamati Institution should formally publish a volume containing the approved text of his farmans.' [as read] Do you know when did he formally approve this?
A. The principal. This is an approval of the principle to publish. That does not mean you can publish tomorrow. It is the principle that he has agreed. The principle to approve, that he has approved the principle of being able to publish the farmans at his time. He has not made a decision that tomorrow you will publish this. He has given his -- here, as I say to you, 'approve the jamat to formally this.' So he has given his agreement to publish. Now the process has got to be gone through.
Q. Okay, so what I'm saying -- my question was: When did he give this approval?
A. This was during the -- this discussion has been on the table with Hazar Imam for a number of years.
Q. No, this --
A. Listen to me, please. I have also.
MR. GRAY: Let him finish his --
THE DEPONENT: I have to be able to give you the context of this. It is my right to give you a context to this. And, therefore during the Jubilee there were a -- during the Golden Jubilee of the Imam, there were a number of projects, and one of them was -- there's one to do with the speeches of the Imam, and this one also is the farmans of the Imam. And these were issues that were discussed by -- with Hazar Imam, and he has, as I said, given in principle his agreement to do this. The question is going to be the timing in when this will happen and the process has to -- due process will have to be gone through before they are released to the jamat.
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. So my question is when -- when the final approval was given?
A. About the...?
Q. When you say 'has already approved'?
A. I told you during the meeting with the leaders -- at the time of the Golden Jubilee, this proposal was --
Q. No, it would be nice if you would say what month, what year?
A. During the Golden Jubilee when we -- leaders of the jamat periodically meet Hazar Imam, and there were meetings with Hazar Imam about what will be the outputs that we will do before the Jubilee, during the Jubilee, and the post-Jubilee. And the farmans would be the compilation also of -- all the farmans of the Golden Jubilee would be included in this. So this was something that came out of the Golden Jubilee.
Q. So you cannot point to the month that he gave --
A. This was done in the context of the principle of -- agreement by approval by Hazar Imam to do certain things. And this was informed to the jamat that that approval has been given by Imam to do this. But, as I say to you, there's a process to follow, which Hazar Imam will have to be -- his guidance will have to be sought.
MR. GRAY: Excuse me just for a second.
--- Off-the-record discussion.
--- Recess taken at 11:59 AM.
--- Upon resuming at 12:09 PM.
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Now, Mr. Sachedina, your announcement --
A. Yes.
Q. You were talking about this already approved and you explained that. Now, to your knowledge has His Highness, prior to his Golden Jubilee approval, has he ever approved prior to that for the publication of the farmans?
A. The principle to publish?
Q. What do you mean 'the principle'?
A. Because the fact is that, you know, there is no publication at the present time. There is no publication of farmans authorized by any institution actually at the present time which is there. So this will be something that is in the process. It was in the process, principle was agreed with Hazar Imam.
Q. Right.
A. And now it's being looked at. Because I -- so that you should be aware, I had raised this matter with Hazar Imam of the Time of my meetings with Nagib at that time about this whole issue, that we will need to make sure that there's a publication available.
Q. Did he give you an approval at that time? Did you ask him for approval at that time?
A. No, he had said that -- we are very, very clear on this matter, that whatever it is you prepare, submit, and then we will make a decision once I have reviewed the material.
Q. Right. And so he said that in 1998 to you?
A. He said the principle about this is something I'm willing to consider and I'm willing to look at. And that's why I was very satisfied that this is where the direction we will end up at some point in time, but only after he has given his authority ###.

Over 80% of ismailis have NO access to Farmans.

Mr Sachedina helps to establish that despite there being a few thousand Jamatkhanas, the circumstances of the worldwide ismaili Jamat are such that over 80% of ismailis do not have access to Jamatkhanas or to Farmans.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #606-#614:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Now, as the head of Jamati Affairs, you have a list of how many jamat khanas there are which are in contact with the Imamat?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many?
A. Of the number of murids or in the global number of countries?
Q. No. Jamat khanas.
A. Oh, jamat khanas. Well, we have in excess of nearly over 5,000-7,000 jamat khanas.
Q. 7,000. And some are in remote areas where there are small villages and few people?
A. Absolutely.
Q. So on the average, that would cover about 2, 3 million Ismailis?
A. Well, yes, possibly. Even more.
Q. There are jamat khanas where there are a thousand people that can sit, and there are some where there are a hundred people that can sit; am I right?
A. There are different size of jamat khanas.
Q. Okay. So if we have to be very generous that about 2, 3 million people have access to jamat khanas, would you agree that not all the people who have access to jamat khanas go to jamat khanas?
A. Access to jamat khanas is out of choice of people being able to go because of their lives, whether they are able to go to the jamat khanas, the proximity of the jamat khanas, the distances people have to travel to jamat khanas. So there are many factors that determine for any member of the community to go to jamat khanas. There could be a jamat khana but they can't get to it because of the distance, whatever it may be. There are many reasons for that.
Q. Okay. Out of 15 million Ismailis, if you have 2 or 3 million at the most who have access -- let's say they all go to jamat khanas, would you agree that 80 per cent of the people do not have access to jamat khanas in our community; they live in regions where there are not yet either a jamat khana or --
A. I'm not able to make that judgment to say to you for sure that is the case. But there is a large proportion, and you know that the Imam of the Time has said that there are many places in the world that there are no jamat khanas, which he will at the time -- at the time of the Golden Jubilee it was one of the goals, was to establish jamat khanas in parts of the world where there has been no access to the jamat khanas. And that is his goal. And therefore he -- there are many, many places in that region of the world where there's a large population and they do not have access to jamat khanas.
Q. Okay. Now, would you agree that people who do not have access to jamat khanas do not have access to farmans?
A. Yes, because -- they would not have access simply that there are no structures, even institutional structures, in some of these places.
Q. True.
A. There has been no constitutional bodies in many of these countries. In fact, till today I can tell you most of these countries do not have constitutional bodies.
Q. Yes. In fact, the Imam mentioned in a farman that there are no constitutional bodies in many, many places where Ismaili --
A. In those parts of the world where there are large jamats, there are in some of these countries what I call the jamats that we are mentioning, majority of the jamats do not have jamati institutional structures. You know, I can give you Russia, central Asia, Afghanistan only just started, western China -- all of these places have a large population, but these are areas of the world where jamat khanas have not been established because there are no constitutional bodies or just about beginning to be established. So it's under the constitutional bodies that jamat khanas -- and there are no traditions in some of these places to have jamat khanas.

Does Imam Think in French and Speak in English?

Mr Sachedina admits twice to saying that the Imam thinks in French and speaks in English.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #252- #257:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And you told Mr. Tajdin that Imam 'thinks in French, speaks in English, and makes mistakes, so we edit them, we correct them'?
A. That's his words, not mine.
Q. And you never said that?
A. I didn't say about mistakes. What I said was, and I want to really put it on properly, is that Imam himself had told me that when he makes farmans, he makes extempore farmans. And extempore farmans, when he makes them, he thinks in French, and the farmans are made in English. And it is absolutely correct in my view that farmans of any -- from my point of view any Imam from that point of view, the Imam has his right to review those farmans because the spoken word and then text have to be compared and be satisfied that that is what he wished to be released.
Q. Would you agree with me that that's your opinion?
A. No. It is what the Imam has told me personally.
Q. That he what?
A. That he has made -- it's a long tradition absolutely going back through many, many years.
Q. When you say 'many years,' so Sultan also had the same policy as well?
A. I'm not -- I'm talking about this Imam. I wasn't present with the 48th Imam. I was not working for him. But I can only tell you that Imam reviews this material himself for the last many, many years since I have been working, and he releases it only when he is satisfied with it.
Q. Now, do you have any, either a farman -- right? -- or an article in the Constitution that says that the Imam edits farmans or has to edit farmans or has to approve farmans before they are released for distribution?
A. There's a very clear constitutional mandate. If you read article -- the only people that are authorized to do that are constitutional board. If you look at the article, very clearly article 14 of the Constitution, 14.1(c) clearly says that it is only the Imam who -- it's very clear on -- 14.1 article C is absolutely clear.

Sachedina #263:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I'll come back to that in a second. I just want to focus on the question that I asked you. My question, and I'm going to repeat it again: Is there any article in the Constitution or is there any farman that says before any farman that has been made by the Imam, before it is distributed to the jamats, has to be edited and approved by the Imam? That's my question.
A. Not in the way that you describe.

Sachedina #617 - #618:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay, that's fine. I'm referring to tab D of -- 3(d) -- now you have to bear with me. It's the first time that I am doing an examination. And Shafik, honestly, I think in French, I speak in English.
A. Yes.
Q. So sometimes --
A. Thank you very much. I am grateful. That is first time on record somebody can say that. I thought I was the only one saying that.
MR. GRAY: That's okay. I think probably it's the first time Mr. Sachedina has been examined.

Health and Age of the Imam - Gray Keeps bringing this up.

Mr Gray tried to establish that the Imam is aging and in bad health. It was refuted by everyone.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #268:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I see. Okay. And did you tell this Mr. Ospreay the age of the Aga Khan?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Can you produce for me your instructions to Mr. Ospreay?
A. It was a verbal instruction.
Q. You didn't ask him in writing?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell him...you follow what the Aga Khan...his life, don't you?
A. I follow it very closely.
Q. Very closely. And are you aware of the fact that he had a skiing accident in 2008?
A. Yes, he has had several of those.
Q. He had several accidents in 2008?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were in 2008, weren't they?
A. Yes. In fact, I met, in 2008, or 2009, Dr. Sachedina in Ivory Coast, and he told me that we have fixed completely properly the shoulder of His Highness, and he is like before.
Q. Right. So, you were aware that the skiing accident hurt his shoulder?
A. Yes, I was aware.
Q. And which shoulder was that?
A. Probably the right shoulder.
Q. Right, and are you also aware that the Aga Khan, His Highness, is right-handed?
A. Yes, I am aware.
Q. Okay. Did you tell Mr. Ospreay that His Highness had had a skiing accident in 2008?
A. No, I did not, because he was already back to normal, and that was confirmed to me by Dr. Sachedina in Abidjan during the Golden Jubilee for His Highness.
Q. Did you tell any of the other experts that you retained about the Aga Khan's age?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell any of the other experts about the skiing accident in 2008?
A. No.

Jiwa #282 - #284
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I take it that you also follow events...I take it you also follow events in His Highness' life?
A. I do somewhat, yes. But the accident was publicly known. So even if you are not following, you knew.
Q. So you knew?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew there was an accident in 2008?
A. Yes.

Sachedina #586 - #599,
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. And the Imam travels extensively; right?
A. Yes.
Q. I would think he travels all the time. I think he mentioned somewhere that he lives in a suitcase or something, or a briefcase. And I remember a very old interview that he sent that he spent so many hours working in a plane, that's why maybe he made this comment. He's also a sportsman; right? He does ski?
A. Yes.
Q. He drives his own car?
A. He loves.
Q. He loves. I have seen his movie with Princess Zahra on a horse. So the horse --
A. That is his hobby. I don't get involved with any of this.
Q. I just want to make sure that we agree that the Imam is in better shape than you and me. If I can refer to that Imam, I was just looking few days ago at the Pamir Mountains and the Imam is climbing the mountain. It looks very fresh. And I think you are 300 meters behind the Imam trying also to go up the same mountain. Is that a university that he's building in the Pamirs?
A. Yes, there is a University of Central Asia, which is the university in that region, in Kyrgstan, Tajikistan and Kazakhstan. It's --
Q. It's a three-country --
A. Three countries.
Q. And it's a mountain university?
A. Under the treaty of --
Q. Okay.
A. Under the treaty between the Imam and the three presidents of the three countries.
Q. There is no choice but to climb the mountain. Because that's where the campus are; right?
A. In remote areas.
Q. In remote areas.
A. In isolated areas.
Q. Very good. Now, he is also a graduate from Harvard, so he's not like the average person --
MR. GRAY: Please stop here a second. I see the reporter is looking for -- off the record.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. So I guess he probably is using some gadget. I saw you were using a Blackberry. Is the Imam also using a Blackberry?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. You are not aware if the Imam --
A. Blackberry, I don't know about the Blackberry.
Q. I will not ask his phone number, promise. But he uses some kind of telephone where you can send messages. I understand he send some messages. So he's quite a modern person in that way?
A. He's an Imam of the Time.

Sachedina #834 - #839
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. ...So that day we met in Abidjan.
Q. Yes. That was during the Golden Jubilee; right? Right?
A. Yes.
Q. I guess this is a yes. We talked about the Imam, and you said that his shoulder was completely restored. You remember that conversation?
A. You asked me how Hazar Imam was, and I said to you he's fine. And you said is he all right, and I said yes, he's fine.
Q. Did we talk of his shoulder?
A. You talked to me, as I say, about his accident.
Q. Yes.
A. You asked me the question and I responded.
Q. And you said he was fixed now?
A. Right shoulder is a shoulder injury, that's why.

Did Sachedina and Bhaloo discuss their Affidavits with the Imam?

Bhaloo and Sachedina did not discuss their Affidavits with the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #28 - #33:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, you said you have reviewed Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you review it when it was drafted right initially, or after it was sworn by him?
A. The Affidavit itself?
Q. Yes.
A. I had seen a situation from before, what he was saying in his own Affidavit, and it was actually the counsel who actually sent me the final copy of it.
Q. After it was signed?
A. Yes. Of course I have seen a draft before that, but it actually was signed by -- and I was sent, really, the copy of it.
Q. Now, your Affidavit as well as Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit, the draft version, did you review that with His Highness?
A. I didn't review it myself. I didn't review it. The counsel had, but I certainly didn't personally give it to His Highness myself.
Q. And did you discuss with His Highness the contents of your Affidavit or Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit?
A. Not with him personally.

Sachedina #830 - #833:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. Have you seen Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit before he signed it?
A. Sorry?
Q. Have you seen Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit before he signs it?
A. Mr. Bhaloo's Affidavit before he signed this? I saw a version of it.
Q. Okay. A draft?
A. Yes, there was a draft that was -- he had prepared, but, as I say, he then himself dealt with it because, as I say --
Q. That's fine.
A. It's not my responsibility. But he did say that he was just making sure that I find my -- as far as I'm concerned, my own visit dates and what you have already said is here, now all is in there.

Bhaloo #6:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. When this Affidavit was drafted, did you discuss what contents to put in, what to mention, with anybody else?
A. No, I did not.

Did the Imam ask Sachedina and Bhaloo to be His witnesses in this case?

Mr. Sachedina is the one who asked Mr Bhaloo to be a witness. No word on who decided that Mr Sachedina should be a witness.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #25 - #26:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. With respect to this litigation, whose decision was it that you and Mr. Bhaloo should be giving evidence?
A. The decision for -- whose decision it was?
Q. Yes.
A. I realized that some of the facts require Mr. Bhaloo, who was present at only one of the meetings that I know of, and then he was also present, I believe, at the -- or he was in the leadership at the time of one of the other --

Initiation of the Lawsuit

Sachedina says that only 2 people were involved in the issuing of the Statement Of Claim: Sachedina and Manji. Sachedina has a hard time pinpointing when the Imam gave the go-ahead to proceed with the Statement of Claim.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #515 - #519:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. When did His Highness tell you that he has decided to issue this Statement of Claim?
A. When did?
Q. When did he tell you?
A. In fact, he discussed this matter the -- after the letter was sent, the second letter was sent, he
did speak to me and the president, Mohamed Manji that --
Q. Together?
A. No. He spoke to me and I believe he spoke to Mohamed separately, and then he sent us, you know, from his point of view a message to speak with -- you know, in the sense that there were discussions that we should also discuss amongst ourselves on this matter.
Q. So who discussed?
A. Mohamed and me were only involved, two people, because His Highness wanted to know whether what had happened so far, what are the actions that have happened so far, the fact that these farmans there has been no reaction, that these farmans have not been withdrawn in the sense that these books have not been withdrawn from circulation, so he was concerned.
Q. By the time that you --
A. And he wanted -- sorry. And he wanted to understand whether he continues in this Imam/murid relationship, which is what he wanted to do. And second letter, he felt after the second letter that he had done what is expected of the Imam in his way, and he was rather concerned that there was no action from the other side, from the murids, and he wanted to protect the integrity of his farmans.

Sachedina #523 - #527:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. So do you know -- I mean I'm going to ask you as precise as you can be in terms of date or day?
A. I'll try.
Q. Is when did he tell you that he has now decided to issue a Statement of Claim?
A. I think and I can probably -- this letter was in February. I think indications were that he was seriously now, all the avenues were -- he had exhausted the avenues from his perspective, which were that if an imam writes to a murid and a murid does not respond, or at least then went and accused for forgery, that was a serious matter for him. And he felt that if that was the case, then this was a matter of serious concern to him and that to protect the integrity of his works, his moral rights, he wanted to ensure that this, therefore, would have to go where legal recourse would have to come. Because before that we had said, both Mohamed and me, that we would try and resolve this as Imam -- between the Imam and the murid because that was the relationship between the murid and the Imam, that he wanted in the privileged setting to resolve this matter.
Q. Now, I was trying to get --
A. Yes.
Q. -- the date?
A. I think probably towards the end of March or April that he was thinking about -- towards end of March, I think.
Q. That he said he wanted to issue the Claim?
A. Well, that's the time he said, well, look, I think, you know, he would have to deal with it from a legal perspective.

Sachedina #766 - #767:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Mr. Sachedina, the first announcement which we have already talked about was already talking of legal steps?
A. I -- at least not from my --
Q. That was --
A. The first announcement, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't talk about any legal steps at all, at
least in the --

Sachedina #771,:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay, I'm just referring to the last sentence where it talks of copyright laws.
MR. GRAY: It says --
THE DEPONENT: Yes, but this practice constitutes a breach of the Ismaili Constitution as well as copyright laws, and appropriate steps have been taken to ensure that the unauthorized circulation of copies of these unauthorized publication ceases.

Whether Gray has spoken to the Imam

Gray tried to show that he has spoken to the Aga Khan by producing a group photograph including him and The Aga Khan Taken at the Aga Khan Museum Foundation Ceremony.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #481
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I am showing you a picture, a photograph.
A. Yes?
Q. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Who do you recognize there?
A. The Aga Khan.
Q. That is the Aga Khan?
A. Yes, it is the...
Q. Who is that next to...do you recognize me there, next to the Aga Khan?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that look like me?
A. Yes.
Q. Brian Gray?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize anybody else in the photograph?
A. I think...is that not the architect Maki?
Q. That is the architect, yes.
A. And I think from the back, I see Mohamed Manji.
Q. You see Mohamed Manji behind the Aga there?
A. Yes.
Q. He is the president of the Ismaili Council for Canada?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see the person at the bottom?
A. This is the foundation ceremony of the Jamatkhana Museum, right?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And you see the other person at the left there; do you know who that is?
A. Who is the other person on the left?
Q. The Aga Khan's right, to the left of the photograph.
A. Aga Khan's right.
Q. To the left, next to the architect.
A. who... There is a lady. I am not sure
Q. Yes, I can tell you that is Bev Oda, the Minister of International Cooperation?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Do you recognize her now?
A. Yes, I recognize her.
Q. Okay. So, I am standing next to the Aga Khan...
A. Yes.
Q. ...at the foundation ceremony; am I not?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. There are so many pictures of so many people like that. I collect them.
Q. You collect them?
A. If you should not mind, I would like to get a copy.
Q. You can have a copy. I will give you a copy right now.
A. Thank you.
Q. There you go, here is a copy. Now, how do you explain that, if I have not spoken with the Aga Khan, or have access to him? people...
A. Mr. Gray, I can produce you so many
Q. Sorry?
A. I can produce so many people who are in photographs with the Aga Khan who have not spoken to him.
Q. I see.
A. It doesn't mean anything. Come on.
Q. It means nothing?
A. On that occasion, so many pictures were taken, probably a couple of thousand.
Q. Okay.
A. So many people wanted to have a photograph with the Aga Khan.
Q. So, along with the ten million people that won't convince you, a photograph is not going to convince you?
A. A photograph where you stand near the Aga Khan, I could have been standing there. So what?
MR. GRAY: Okay. Can we mark that as the next exhibit? Number 12. It is a photograph of Brian Gray, the Aga Khan, Bev Oda and an unnamed architect.
Q. Maki?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, Mr. Maki, at the foundation ceremony of the Aga Khan...
A. Museum, Jamatkhana.
Q. ...Museum in Toronto.
A. He is the architect of the museum.
Q. Okay. It was taken around May...at the time of the ceremony in May of 2010?
A. Yes, end of May.
Q. End of May?
A. Yes.

Jiwa #126:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. You saw the photograph of me standing next to the Aga Khan? Did you see that photograph?
A. I have seen the photograph.
Q. You think I did not speak to the Aga Khan?
A. You know what? I will not answer that question. You give your evidence if you want to. Put in an affidavit and we can cross-examine you. Right now you have not given any evidence. You are just counsel.

Are defendants insisting to meet the Imam?

Defendant Nagib Tajdin is often in close proximity but never addresses the Imam. The defendants are not insisting to meet the Imam, they are insisting on getting any authentic direct instruction from the Imam so that they know whether to continue or not.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #419 - #428:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, it is a privilege to have an audience with the Aga Khan, isn't it?
A. It is a privilege for anyone, but this is not the purpose. I am not looking for an audience for an audience. I have written, in the beginning of January, I need an audience to get instruction.
Q. Have you ever had an audience with the Aga Khan?
A. No. Yes. I have gone to Mehmani.
Q You went to Mehmani?
A. Yes, it was a long time ago.
Q. When was that?
A. 1978.
Q. And at that Mehmani in 1978, did you present the fruit and nuts to him?
A. I think there were more than fruit and nuts. There was a rosary, and there were a few other things.
Q. Right, right, okay. So, you had a Mehmani?
A. I had a Mehmani.
Q. How long did that Mehmani last in 1978?
A. A few seconds.
Q. A few seconds, okay. So, other than that, you haven't had any audience with His Highness?
A. I have never tried to...
Q. No.
A. ...up to January 4th.
Q. Yes, now you have been trying since January 4 to have an audience with him?
A. Yes.

N. Tajdin #516:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Did you try to bring your books to show to the Aga Khan while he was in Toronto?
A. No. I went to the hotel, but not to try to give him the book.
Q. Did you go to the hotel, and the Royal York, where he was, to try and give him the books?
A. No.
Q. Did you try to meet him at the hotel?
A. I haven't tried to meet him. I was standing there with other Ismailis to see him.
Q. You were in the hotel?
A. And if he would have called me, I would have gone.
Q. But you were in the hotel lobby?
A. I was in the hotel lobby, and I was in the hotel lobby the previous time when he came, the previous of the previous time also.
Q. Did you follow him around the world, trying to see him?
A. I go around the world because I have a website. I take pictures. I take photos. Sometimes he is there for a day, two days. Sometimes we are very close. I could talk to him, but I don't do these things. We have a code of conduct that tells that we cannot approach the Imam unless he accepts.
Q. All right. You follow him around, but you don't speak to him in the...
A. Never. Never.

Sachedina #630-#631:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. On paragraph 20, you say: 'Mr. Tajdin responded that he would accept this to be His Highness's wish only if he received instructions directly from His Highness.' Is this correct?
A. That's what you told me.
Q. I agree I told you that. I just want to make sure that it's not changed?
A. Yes. Directly -- from my language, directly is the Imam. Imam of the Time, if he tells you, then you will take instructions from him.
Q. Okay, that's fine.
A. And that's the way you have described to me.

Meeting the Imam: Defendant's Alternatives

Defendants present some alternatives that the Imam had to make them stop their activities without needing to meet them.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Jiwa #122 - #124:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Well, is it your evidence that you won't accept...the Aga Khan has not consented that the Aga Khan has not authorized this lawsuit unless you speak with him in person? Is that your evidence?
A. My evidence...you know what? don't need to speak to him in person. I don't need to speak with him in person. He has, despite the evidence to the contrary, he has very simple ways of dealing with these issues. And that leads me to believe that, you know, he is not behind this litigation.
Q. But you don't need to speak to him in person.
A. I don't need to...
Q. And so you would accept something in writing?
A. Writing at this moment is becoming difficult to accept. But I have told you that he has got quite a few...at least two other alternatives to stop this stuff or stop the publication of Farmans and he has chosen not to do
so. That leads me to believe that he is not behind this.

Sachedina #433 - #439:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. But the concern is, as I understand, it seems to be that whether they are official or unofficial, he doesn't want them to be outside of jamat khanas distributed either by email, by photocopies, by books?
A. That's something he doesn't wish.
Q. He doesn't you say?
A. Except from the described process.
Q. And yet since 1997 at least, perhaps earlier, as you said, but at least since 1997, he frequently told you that he's concerned about this, would you agree with me that he had an excellent opportunity when he went around the world to make sure that the jamats doesn't engage in this activity. He never did; correct?
A. That's the Imam's decision --
Q. Yes. I understand.
A. -- what the process is. It's up to him.
Q. I'm not asking you why he didn't do.
A. Yes.
Q. Of course you're right, its his prerogative. What I'm telling you is despite that he went around the world, he never mentioned any farman anywhere to say don't engage in this activity. You are aware, aren't you, that he has, for instance, said, 'I don't want you dealing drugs, I don't want you smoking drugs, I don't want you to grow drugs, I don't want you to transport' -- he said that in jamat khana?
A. But those are in the context of a farman.
Q. I understand. But he said that. So he's able to say in the farman and stop this; would you agree with me?
A. If he wished to do that. That is the prerogative of the Imam to do what he wants to do and say what he wants to say, if he wished to say, whether in his people whether that's something he wants to say to the jamat in public. But this is an institutional issue.

Sachedina#448 - #450:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa. (until reporter appeals)
Q. And it says, the second sentence: 'In order that there is absolute clarity that the legal steps have been undertaken is the sad last resort.' Right? Would you agree with me that this is not a 'sad last resort'?
A. It was from Imam's perspective a 'sad last resort' because he tried in many ways for this not to go to this level.
Q. I just told you that if the Imam has been concerned, if he has been concerned about these activities, and according to you since at least 1997, he has a number of occasions -- for instance, 1998, July, he amended the Constitution and he could have made it abundantly clear that nobody but the Imam can do this. Number 2, and I just explained to you that he could have made the farmans as he went around during Golden Jubilee because this has been a concern for a long time, as you've been saying. So would you agree with me that the sad last resort is not true?
A. Let me tell you and maybe --
Q. Yes or no?
A. It is a --
--- The reporter appeals.
MR. GRAY: Let him answer the --
THE DEPONENT: I have a right to explain. 'Sad last resort' because for the last ten years, since after -- from 1998, after my visit with Nagib, and, in fact, the last publications of Nagib, nothing, as far as I'm aware, there was no publication. This issue only arose because of this publication that was produced.
MR. GRAY: The Golden --
THE DEPONENT: So there was Golden. This is the book that has come out. This is the book in question --

Meeting the Imam: Gray's Alternatives

Gray knows that the Lawsuit will end if the Imam says in person 'Nagib Stop.', yet he tried many times to find alternatives to producing the Imam. None of his alternatives seem to show that he has access to the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #134 - #140:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, if it is actually from the Aga Khan, you accept that that, in fact, ends the lawsuit. If it really is from the Aga Khan, you no longer have consent to do what you are doing?
A. If the Aga Khan confirmed directly in person that he has written this letter, there is no lawsuit.
Q. Right. You will stop...you confirm, and it is your view that the Aga Khan has the absolute and unfettered right to withdraw any consent he may have given?
A. The Aga Khan can withdraw any consent to anyone at any time.
Q. Right. And even if he had given any consent previously, or anything he may have said previously...
A. Well, from the time he gives an instruction, it has to be followed.
Q. Right.
A. This is the tenet of our faith.
Q. So, if he has withdrawn his consent now, that is the end of the matter?
A. If he tells me, face to face, 'Nagib, stop', that is the end of the matter.
Q. Right. It doesn't matter what happened in 1992 or 1998, or any time?
A. It doesn't matter. If today, he tells me face to face, 'Nagib, stop', I will stop.
Q. But if the letter is genuine, and he has told you in writing to stop, you would also stop?
A. If the letter is genuine, and he tells me, 'This is a letter which I have composed and signed', I will accept.

N. Tajdin #236 - #239:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, a matter of this importance, when you are asserting forgery, you are not going to produce for me to review, or for my expert to review, the original of either this letter, Exhibit 5, or the original of Exhibit 3?
A. No. I will not, because your client is...if it is the Aga Khan, he can tell me, 'I have signed it and the matter is closed'. We do not need expertise.
Q. well, you might...
A. You don't need a counter-expert. I am really surprised. Why do you need to see the original of the forged letter? You ask the Aga Khan. He is your client.
Q. I have asked the Aga Khan.
A. So, let him tell me that the letter is not forged, and I will accept it.
Q. He has told you in writing, the letter is not forged.
A. Well, this...
Q. And you don't accept that. You might expect that he might be a little annoyed that you have accused all of his various...
A. Mr. Brian, by saying that this letter is forged, I am protecting the Aga Khan. Come on, he cannot be angry at me. He should be happy at me that at least, I am trying to protect his interests. In this whole file, I am the only one trying to protect his interests. Come on.

N. Tajdin #248.
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Right. So, is it not the case that he can...the Aga Khan, His Highness, can give you instructions in writing? You accept that he has to be able to give instructions in writing, doesn't he not?
A. I would accept his writing if they are not forged.
Q. Right. Okay. But there are 15 million Ismailis?
A. Yes.
Q. He cannot possibly meet all of them, can he?
A. There is only one lawsuit against a Murid of the Imam in 1400 years. Surely, he can meet five minutes that person and say, 'I have signed', but he is not doing it because he has not signed those letters.
Q. But he cannot meet all 15 million Ismailis. He has to operate by sending things by writing?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you agree with that?
A. This kind of...
Q. He generally has to operate by sending information in writing?
A. Yes. And this problem has never occurred before. It is once in a lifetime, once in 1400 years.

N. Tajdin #267:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I see. So, because the first one was forged, everything else you received from the Aga Khan's office must be forged?
A. No. Everything that says that the first one has been written by the Aga Khan is forged.

N. Tajdin #398 - #404:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. But you agree with me already that if he gives you a clear indication in writing, which you understand or believe to be from the Aga Khan, you will stop doing it?
A. At this point, anything in writing will be questioned.
Q. You will question anything in writing?
A. Yes, because there are so many forgeries in this file that I will not accept a letter.
Q. You won't accept a single thing that comes from the Aga Khan in writing?
A. Not in contradiction to what the instruction he has given.
Q. So, no matter what it says in writing, you won't accept it? No matter how many times he writes to you? No matter how many people...
A. If the Aga Khan writes to me, it has to be proven that he is the one, because up to now, in this file, there is not even one that I can see which is in the Aga Khan's style, his real signature. The content is always questionable, and I understand, you are not familiar with the Aga Khan's way, but I have been studying it for 30 years. The Ismaili knows, this kind of letter are never written by the Aga Khan.
Q. If I got 50 people who swore that they saw the Aga Khan sign the thing telling you to stop, you wouldn't accept that?
A. If the Aga Khan tells me, yes, I will stop.
Q. No, I am telling you, if you got in writing, from 50 different people, that they had seen the Aga Khan sign a document saying that he did not consent, you wouldn't accept that?
A. Mr. Gray, you can bring me a million people. Because the Aga Khan has given the instruction to me, he is the only one who can tell me these instructions are no longer valid. No other
people can tell me that.
Q. No person, but...yes, I understand that, but what I am suggesting to you is, if the Aga Khan tells you in writing not to do it, you won't accept it, even if a million people confirm that
that is the Aga Khan's writing?
A. Even if ten million people, because that is not the point. It is beside the point.

N. Tajdin #415 - #418:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, you don't want to examine Mr. Gleason to see if there was somebody who looked like the Aga Khan appeared? You don't want to ask him...
A. There is no need for that. I was not there.
Q. You are not going to show him a photo of the Aga Khan, and say, 'Was the Aga Khan there? Is this the person you saw?'
A. I would not do that, because this would be meaningless. If the Aga Khan has made this lawsuit, let him come and say for one minute, 'Nagib, stop', and I will stop. There is no need for this Gleason and notary, letters, and he would not even need someone to forge his signature if he was behind this.
Q. What if the Aga Khan doesn't want to see you, because you have asserted forgery? Has that ever occurred to you that he might not want to see someone who is asserting forgery against all of his employees, and against his secretariat, and against the secretariat of Prince Amyn? Has that not occurred to you that he might not want to see you for that reason?
A. Mr. Gray, I think he would be very happy to see me, because I am trying to protect his interests, not mine. And there is no accusation against the Aga Khan. I have never insulted him.
Q. And what about the precedent of giving an interview or an audience with somebody who is asserting criminal activities on behalf of his own staff? What about that precedent? Do you think that is a good precedent for him?
A. Well, I would not comment to you. You know, in North America, there are enough cases of corporation where people on the top have been betraying the shareholders, so let's not go into this, please.

N. Tajdin #450 - #451:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. ...and that somehow, now, having received the book, and the lawsuit having occurred, and the announcement by the International Leaders Forum having occurred twice, and two letters having been sent to you purportedly from the Aga Khan, and purporting to have been forged, and you have now asserted widely that they are forged, it has been widely circulated, and you are telling me that the Aga Khan, His Highness, would not step forward to stop this, if, in fact, he had not authorized it?
A. I would tell you exactly the same thing, if he was behind this case. For sure, he would step in to stop this case. He would tell me, 'Nagib, stop. I don't want you to print, and I will say there is no need for a lawsuit'.
Q. So...
A. I will stop...

N. Tajdin #470 - #476:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, you have put this settlement offer on the record in your other motion, haven't you?
A. Mr. Gray, a follower doesn't do settlement with his Imam.
Q. Right.
A. It can't happen.
Q. So, when I offered to have you have a meeting with the Imam after you agreed to settle the matter, the case?
A. You wanted me to sign some
Q. Right.
A. ...which were against my faith.
Q. That is why the meeting didn't take place, because you didn't agree to that, right?
A. That is your point of view.
Q. Right?
A. I don't believe in that.
Q. Yes, you don't believe, because you think I don't represent the Aga Khan?
A. I don't believe that the Imam will refuse a two-minute meeting which can avoid to him a lawsuit.

Jiwa #125:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. But if we got another affidavit from another person that had seen the Aga Khan, would that convince you?
A. Listen, you can do what you want to do. I won't tell you how to conduct your litigation, sir. You don't tell me how to conduct my defence or what evidence I put in or who to cross-examine. I have told you my position. You have given your evidence as you have.

Jiwa #129 - 132:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And you questioned Mr. Gleason. He has given evidence, hasn't he?
A. Mr. Gray, I have been a keen follower of His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan and...not only him, Sultan Mohammed Shah right back to...right to the prophets. I have read a lot of history. And for me to make judgments...I mean, if you tell me that, you know, if another affidavit comes in, for me to make judgment, I know my Imam how he works, how he operates. Right now, to me, all of this stuff seems odd. They are inconsistent with the constitution. They are inconsistent with the Farmans that he has made. They are inconsistent with our oral tradition of 1,400 years. So I have a hard time believing and accepting.
Q. I understand you have a hard time believing. I think we understand that.
A. Yes.
Q. But, nevertheless, you would accept...you understand that affidavits are often accepted by lawyers everywhere all over the world?
A. And I think you are aware that false affidavits are being filed here and there. It does happen.
Q. I..
A. Excuse me. Courts also routinely get defrauded by people.
Q. And you are suggesting that is what I am doing.
A. No, I am not suggesting. I am saying I am not satisfied.

Jiwa #138:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Can you give me some indication of a motivation why Mr. Gleason would lie?
A. Lawyers get duped by clients every now and then. I think you can look at cases. You can look up reports. If you just look up the Law Society's fraud website, you will be able to see in Ontario about 30, 40 lawyers have been defrauded, essentially based on false ID. Law Society has changed its rules for even doing real estate transactions based on fraud that has been perpetrated. I don't believe that those lawyers are committing fraud. They are victims of fraud.

Jiwa #308 - #315:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. There is one more question I wanted to ask you. Is it your position that His Highness has the absolute and unfettered right to withdraw his consent to the publication of these materials at any time?
A. Yes, he does.
Q. And so if he, in fact, has withdrawn his consent now or at any time since the lawsuit started, that is the end of the matter, regardless of what might have happened in 1992?
A. Yes. You know what? If His Highness personally desires to stop everything, it just stops. He is the boss.
Q. Right. Whether he gives that to you generally in writing or whether it is in person...
A. Generally, no, as I said earlier...
Q. You don't want to accept it in writing but...
A. No. I would accept in writing. The problem that I have right now is this issue of whether...for me, I have a grave concern that he has been misled. It has happened in the past. To you it might sound, 'Oh, well, this is...' but it has happened in the past. So, I would...I am hesitant to accept it in writing. Your e-mail said that if you don't accept it, he wants to pursue with the litigation. So, he has repeatedly told us that if we have any concerns, we can discuss with him. He has told us this. He says, 'I am here to guide my Jamats'. He says, 'Ninety percent of my time should be spent for the Jamats', so we are entitled to...he is like our father. He is not a CEO of a corporation. He is like our father and we are entitled to...if I put it another way. We are entitled to beg him to allow his Farmans to be distributed to the Jamats because he wants the Jamats to be guided. So I am entitled to make a plea to him as a Pir. He is our current Pir as well as actually I think it might even be in the constitution that he is the current Pir, so I am entitled to take our pleas to him and, you know, he
is our spiritual advisor. It is just like Jesus is to Christians.
Q. Right, I understand.
A. So at this moment and this state in time, this litigation is completely contradictory to what he has been telling us all along. This is why I appreciate that you are counsel and I appreciate your comments on that, but I have grave concerns. And so as much as you say I have unfettered...I mean, if he tells me to jump out of this window I won't think think about it. And I hope I can maintain that faith; right? So if he tells us and if I am satisfied this is him, I will do it.
Q. And even if it is in writing, if he tells you that it is not to be done, you will do it? Whether in writing or in person; as long as you are satisfied...
A. That it is from him.
Q. Right.
A. Absolutely. There is no question about it.
Q. And that vitiates, if you will, or cancels or annuls any prior consents that may have been given in 1992 or at any other time?
A. Mr. Gray, it would make no difference whether there is consent or not. He says no, the matter is over.

Contradiction: April 2010 Announcement - No Consultation?

Brian Gray tries to establish with Nagib that the April Announcement was written in consultation with all the LIF. Sachedina later contradicts this point of view and establishes that in fact the draft of the second announcement was not circulated to anyone in the leadership before it was read out in Jamatkhanas as being from the LIF, Councils, ITREB etc on the same evening that it was written by a couple of persons including Sachedina.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #364:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Can you identify that as an announcement made by the Ismaili Leaders' International Forum to the Jamatkhannas?
A. Yes.
Q. And so this was on or about April 15, 2010, read to all of the prayer halls at Jamatkhannas?
A. Yes, around that date. I think it
was read the previous day in Canada, the next day in
Nairobi.
Q. So, again, the whole international...the Leaders' International Forum, that is what the LIF is, right? The Leaders' International Forum?
A. Yes.
Q. Those are the leaders of the Ismaili...can I call it religion, Ismaili religion?
A. Yes.
Q. Ismaili religion. They are the leaders of the Ismaili religion, and the National Council. All of them have issued this announcement, in the Jamatkhannas worldwide?
A. I would say it is not all of them. When a corporation gets an announcement out, it is not everybody who is involved. Maybe one person has drawn this, and sends it to be read.
Q. Okay, one person...
A. How can I know?
Q. But circulated it around to the institutions, to go...
A. Yes.
Q. ...through the procedure, right?
A. Yes, circulated all over the place.
Q. Before it was read, it would have been circulated around to the institutional leaders to review.
A. I am not sure. How can I know? I am not part of them, so I don't know what is the procedure there.
Q. Is it conceivable to you that His Highness would not have been aware of the reading of this announcement?
A. Yes, it is conceivable. There are announcements every Friday, every important days...
Q. Does the announcement...
A. ...there are so many of them.

Sachedina #727 - #745:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. How was these four countries affected chosen? In 39 you say: 'As this represented a grave and unprecedented step, His Highness authorized the LIF to issue a second announcement.' Was this done in writing?
A. No. He called me.
Q. He called you?
A. Yes.
Q. So you prepared the announcement?
A. Sorry?
Q. You prepared the announcement?
A. No. He called me. He himself had done a lot of work on the announcement, and he was giving me instructions to say that these are the four countries he wants. Because originally -- normally, announcements of the LIF go global, but in this particular case, it was His Highness's wishes that to keep this announcement in only those four countries.
Q. So you said His Highness had worked quite a lot on this second announcement. Has he shown you a memo or some notes or something which became the base of that second announcement?
A. I'm not privy to Hazar Imam's own work that he does with his staff.
Q. Okay. So announcement, Hazar Imam told you his notes over the phone?
A. No. He himself read out the components to it. It says this is what he wants to say. Because all of these quotations were he -- he wanted those quotations put into the announcement.
Q. So you took some notes during that phone conversation?
A. No, because I was in a car and he was telling me on the phone and I was driving from wherever it was to the airport. So I was being told by -- he was reading it out to me.
Q. So you did not take any note of --
A. No. And he then says that Sherbanoo or somebody will send me the -- whatever the final draft will be.
Q. That's fine. So did Sherbanoo send you the draft?
A. I would presume there must be a draft somewhere, but I haven't got -- I can't tell you that I have definitely got --
Q. Mr. Sachedina, can we have it as an undertaking to provide --
A. It's privileged. As I said to you, what Imam sends me is privileged communication.
Q. It's draft of something which was read -- (inaudible)
A. But I don't know --
Q. Do you agree to it? It's a draft --
MR. GRAY: We don't agree to produce it. We'll take it under advisement though. You want the draft of the announcement of April --
--- UNDER ADVISEMENT
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Yes, I would like to see --
MR. GRAY: April the 15th, I think it is.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. The draft which Mr. Sherbanoo sent to Mr. Sachedina?
A. No. The draft of the final text that Hazar Imam authorized --
Q. So it came from Sherbanoo --
A. Sherbanoo's office, who said this is the text which Hazar Imam has authorized.
Q. Do you remember approximately at what date?
A. It was the day -- the day the announcement happened.
Q. So the same day it was read?
A. I think it was either the same day or the evening. Because I think I was on my way -- it's my recollection, and I want to make it recorded it was my best recollection, and I was in -- and I was going -- and I was travelling to London, and it was on the road that I got this message, and that is when this thing was. And he then says 'I am now authorizing you to release this announcement through the LIF. Talk to Azim, talk to everybody, this is the position.'
Q. Okay. So that announcement was released by the LIF, not by the Council or their institution?
A. No. It came -- as I said to you, it was released through --
Q. By the LIF?
A. LIF.

Contradiction: Did Nagib's letter really reach Aiglemont on Jan 20?

Sachedina, in his affidavit, says that Nagib's letter to the Imam Reached Aiglemont on January 20, 2010. Sachedina's email to Nagib on January 10 said that Aiglemont had no trace of Nagib's letter. Nagib produced a letter from the Kenya Council, as well as a confirmation from DHL that the letter actually reached Aiglemont on January 8th.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #820 - #821:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. So D-1 would be a letter purported to be from His Highness Prince Aga Khan, Council for Kenya, dated 5th of July.
MR. GRAY: It appears to be, yes, on its face.
EXHIBIT D-1: Copy of letter dated July 5, 2010, from Nausherwan Parekh, His Highness Prince Aga Khan, Council for Kenya, to Mr. Nagib Tajdin, Nairobi.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Informing that parcel was sent to Mowlana Hazar Imam on 8th January by courier DHL, and there is a confirmation of the DHL.
MR. GRAY: My understanding is with DHL -- with that number, you would be able to determine when it was delivered to his address.
MR. TAJDIN: Yes. Yes. The DHL delivery sheet, you can see the last entry. It is the same number, the same number as in the Council letter. Last -- second page, last line. And from what I read, they delivered the three parcels to Aiglemont. One was 2-and-a-half kilo from Nairobi to Sherbanoo Moledina.

Sachedina #826:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. And DHL is saying that this number of waybill, which is 2-and-a-half kilo, was delivered on 8th of January. We just want to cross-check that this is the information which is in Aiglemont, that this is the date it arrived?
MR. GRAY: We'll take it under advisement.

Sachedina #900 - #916:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. Now, the way it works, you know when you reply to an email, the first email goes below. So the first email is 7 January here, and you are saying. 'Dear Naguib, could you please advise me of the date when you sent the submission to Hazar Imam as his office have no knowledge of this.' Right? You remember that email?
A. On the 7th of January?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes. I checked out and there was no --
Q. And you were right because, as you see, DHL is saying that they came on 8th only.
A. Well, I'm sorry, I didn't -- on that day I --
Q. You are right, it was not there.
MR. GRAY: Just accept that he's saying you're right.
MR. TAJDIN: You always say yes when someone says you are right.
HE DEPONENT: No, but I just wanted to make sure. It's the 7th; right? This is the 7th of January.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Then on 10th, on 10th, you were looking for it and you had not find it; right? So you sent me another email saying, 'I have no response from you. Please respond or call me asap.' [as read] True?
A. Yes.
Q. So on 10th the envelope was there --
A. I didn't check.
Q. -- you were looking for it but you did not find it?
A. Not for the envelope. Please understand, I'm not looking. The mail manager says that we have not --
Q. There is nothing?
A. Well, I mean this is because -- His Highness said to me you have said that the letter is coming. I have not seen the letter.
Q. Did you check with the Kenya Council if I had given them a letter to send to Aiglemont?
A. That they confirm.
Q. So you told His Highness that my letter is coming?
A. It's on its way but I haven't seen it.
Q. You haven't seen it?
A. It's in the system.
Q. So that day I replied to you the same day, 'The sealed envelope has gone through proper channel a week ago Monday'?
A. Absolutely.
Q. So at that time you knew, on 10th, that the letter was coming, His Highness knew that the letter was coming, you knew that I had given it to the Kenya Council, the Kenya Council had confirmed to you that it's coming; right?
A. Correct.
Q. And before it came, there was already an announcement in jamat khanas, first one?
A. But that was no connection with the letter.
Q. Okay.
A. To me, the letter coming and Hazar Imam's announcement have no relation --
Q. Okay. So Hazar Imam didn't want to know what was in my letter before making the announcement?
A. The announcement issue just came simply because we wanted to make sure that this issue -- because he knew about the publication.

Contradiction: Drafting of the February 18th letter purportedly by the Imam

Mr Sachedina told Mr Jiwa that the Imam showed Mr Sachedina a draft of the second letter before signing it. Mr Sachedina told Mr. Tajdin that the Imam was away travelling when he drafted the second letter.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #505 - #509:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. When did you first see this letter?
A. After it was -- I was given a copy of this letter after it was sent to you, to Nagib. But I had seen a draft.
Q. Of the letter?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he send it to you for your in--
A. No. He just wanted me to look at the draft and he was going to sign this. And that's precisely -- the date is 18th of February.
Q. And then you reviewed the draft before he sent it out?
A. I saw the draft.
Q. Before he signed and sent it over?
A. Yes, I saw the draft.

Sachedina #697 - #702:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Do you remember if he was travelling at that time?
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay. So that letter he wrote on 18th was not written from Paris then. From where --
A. Which letter are we talking about; the first or the second letter?
Q. The second.
A. I believe he was not at base at that time.
Q. He was not. Do you know which secretary typed that letter?
A. I understand there's a correspondence from Ann-Valerie.
Q. Did she type that letter?
A. Well, she was a secretary I believe accompanying His Highness, to the best of my knowledge. I believe that she was a secretary travelling with His Highness at the time.
Q. Okay. Is it -- okay. We'll leave it at this.

Did Sachedina convey to Imam that some of the points in the forged letter needed clarification?

Mr Sachedina did not convey to the Imam that Mr Tajdin had responded to the first letter with a request for clarifications.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #570 - #573:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Right. Nagib Tajdin had said to you that -- in his letter that he needed clarification?
A. Yes.
Q. Right? And my question is a narrow question; all right? Did you ever raise the topic with His Highness or did he raise it with you? Did you both discuss what kind of --
A. I wasn't involved. That was between -- I think that was between --
Q. My question is not involved. Did he discuss with you or not on that --
A. No. No.
Q. Did you discuss anything? Did you ask him on that point?
A. No.

Has Imam spoken to LIF, or is there a huge conspiracy against the defendants?

Gray tried to show that if the defendants are to be believed, then it would mean that there is a huge conspiracy of dozens of corrupt leaders, staff, and that this is unbelievable.

Sachedina's cross-examination showed that the misinformation can be pinpointed to very few individuals. Even the LIF Chairman, Lakhani, has not been contacted by the Imam about this issue, the LIF was briefed by Sachedina, and the announcements were written by only a couple of people, not by the whole ismaili leadership as they seem to imply or as Mr Gray seems to think by looking at his questions to Tajdin and Jiwa.

This confirms that all evidence in this case originates from Mr Sachedina.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #333:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And this announcement was made on behalf of all of the Ismaili Leaders' International Forum?
A. It says for Ismaili Leaders' International Forum, Council for Canada and Tariqah and Religious Education Board for Canada.
Q. Right.
A. That is an awful lot of people. institutions; do you see that in the second paragraph?
A. Yes.
Q. Right?
A. In fact, our constitution has separated all these institutions, so it is always surprising to see something like that, that this is an announcement by more than one institution.
Q. So, the whole of all of the institutions?
A. You know it cannot happen...
Q. They all ganged up against you?
A. So many people...obviously, they have not been consulted.
Q. They have ganged up against you, all them?
A. No, this is an announcement which been sent probably by Dr. Sachedina, 'Please read that, in Jamatkhannas'. As simple as that.
Q. He has the authority, on his own, to send an announcement to all the Jamatkhannas, to the whole world, on his own?
A. If Dr. Sachedina sends an announcement, nobody will question him.
Q. He has the complete authority to send an announcement to the whole of the Jamatkhannas in the whole world on his own. Is that your evidence?
A. He has portrayed to the institution that he is the boss.
Q. I didn't ask you that. I said, does he have the authority, on his own, to send to all of the Jamatkhannas in the world an announcement, on his own, without consulting anyone else?
A. He doesn't, but he does.
Q. He does not have that authority?
A. But he does do it, and people follow him. It is not...I am not the only one to fear him. Everybody fear him. He is quite a strong person who has a lot of influence.
Q. And who appoints the...Shafik Sachedina?
A. The Aga Khan appoints him.
Q. Can the Aga Khan fire him at will?
A. I believe he will.

Jiwa #140 - 141.
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Are you aware how these announcements become approved for circulation in the JamatKhanas?
A. No.
Q. You are not. Do you know how many leaders have to review them before they are circulated to the JamatKhanas in any country or worldwide?
A. No, I don't.

Sachedina #444:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. My question was who drafted it?
A. I've told you the process. It is done by the LIF Secretariat with the chairman of the LIF, myself, and the president of the council where the jurisdiction is of the countries involved were consulted.

Sachedina #561 - #562:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I refer to your paragraph 22. You say: 'At this time, the community leaders agreed with His Highness's guidance that the Ismaili community worldwide should be informed that Mr. Tajdin's Farman Book was an unauthorized publication that should not be supported.' Now, when you say 'community leaders,' who do you mean by 'community leaders' here?
A. I explained to you that this announcement was with the -- there was the chairman of the --
Q. Just those? Nobody else?
A. -- community leaders because it's the apex of the body, the head of the body, the chairman, and the head of the Jamati Institution, the president of the councils of countries involved where this issue was from a jamati perspective, they knew he was from Canada and Kenya, Nagib was.

Sachedina #710 - #726
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. There are a couple of things. Now, it says that His Highness communicated with Mr. Mohamed Manji. Would you know if it was verbal or with a memo or an email?
A. I was told -- I'm given to understand by Mohamed that he spoke to Mohamed.
Q. Okay. So the Imam calls --
A. President.
Q. -- Council presidents --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and important people; right?
A. He does call.
Q. When it is something important, not every day, every moment?
A. No.
Q. And --
A. It's up to the Imam to decide when and for what purpose.
Q. I agree. Now, 38, it says that you informed the LIF. Is it not true that chairman of the LIF is appointed directly by the Imam?
A. Absolutely he's appointed by the Imam.
Q. And the Imam can talk to him directly?
A. Yes. He has absolutely --
Q. Does he do that sometimes, talking directly to the --
A. Yes. He speaks to the LIF chairman.
Q. And the chairman is Mr. Lakhani?
A. Dr. Azim Lakhani.
Q. Dr. Azim Lakhani. Where does he live?
A. He lives in the U.K.
Q. In the U.K. In London?
A. In London.
Q. Okay, that's fine. But the Imam did not call Mr. Lakhani; you informed Mr. Lakhani? When you say you informed the LIF, in number 38, do you mean in the meeting; right?
A. I informed the chairman.
Q. And he called a meeting?
A. First the chairman, and then I asked the chairman, because Hazar Imam spoke to me on the phone, called me and said that, 'I want this conveyed to the members of the LIF.'
Q. And he did not --
A. The first I spoke to chairman --
Q. Mr. Sachedina, he did not call the chairman of the LIF?
A. Because he wanted to discuss other matters with me, and while he was speaking with me, he -- it was he who called me.
Q. It was not important enough for him to confirm directly to Mr. Lakhani that --
A. That was the Imam's prerogative, to decide who he speaks, for what purpose.

Where the Farman Dissemination Policy of March 2010 Comes From

The Farman Dissemination Policy document of March 2010, submitted to court by the Plaintiff party, does not come from the Imam or from Aiglemont, it comes from Mohamed Manji.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #306 - #309:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I'm going to ask you to refer to your Affidavit's Exhibit B in your Affidavit. Now, this says, 'ITREB Canada Farman Dissemination Process.' And you've given this as part of your evidence. And where did you get this from?
A. This is a document that has been the process that they follow in Canada, and I asked them just to make sure -- that the Imam wanted to see what the process was. So that's what they put down, is a process which has been what is in place in Canada.
Q. And so who gave this to you?
A. It came from the National Council president.
Q. From Canadian president?
A. Yes. Because it was through the ITREB Canada to give to the president and it has come. Because it was a process that we just wanted to make sure that what is the process followed, and that's what they have given, that this is the process they followed.
Q. All right.
A. And it was given to me, and I also submitted this to Hazar Imam.

Can anyone else sign for the Imam?

Mr. Sachedina dispels the rumours that someone else is allowed to sign for the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina # 503
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Do you know if anybody other than Hazar Imam signed this?
A. No way can anybody sign a letter that's purporting to be from the Imam of the Time.

Can Imam's Farman supercede the Constitution?

This is a simple question, but Mr. Bhaloo, although he has been swearing to protect the constitution for decades, refused to answer the question on the grounds that he is not a constitutional expert.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #141 - #149:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And would you also agree with me, sir, that a farman of the Imam remains valid and binding until it's superceded either by that Imam or a later Imam?
A. By any pronouncement by the Imam.
Q. Yes.
A. By even a letter to somebody or a talika or farman. He can actually any time in the way, the words of the Imam in a way, the present Imam, anything in the Constitution says his words would actually precede -- it's beyond the Constitution from that point of view.
Q. You said 'letter' by the Imam. That's known as a talika, t-a-l-i-k-a?
A. A talika is usually sent -- talika is sent to the jamat.
Q. And they're read in jamat khanas?
A. Yes.
Q. So my previous question was that all Ismailis are obligated to follow the farmans of the Imam. The latest farman supersedes the previous farman?
A. Well, the farmans can be valid according to time and context of the present Imam's farmans. They were given in a particular time, in a particular context, in particular circumstances.
Q. Yes.
A. So they remain valid for that particular jamat, and unless Imam says to them that these are my new farmans to you, then they supersede and he would say that they supersede the --
Q. And he also said that individuals can also be guided by the Imam?
A. Yes.
Q. Right? And if that individual is guided by the Imam, then that is binding on him irrespective of what he might have said in a general farman?
A. That is given to a particular individual in particular circumstances for that particular purpose. It is not applicable to everybody. It's applicable to that one individual who has sought.
Q. Who has sought?
A. Guidance.

Bhaloo #30:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And would you agree with me that after the date of the Constitution, His Highness can make a farman, and if there is an inconsistency with this farman and the Constitution, the farman prevails?
A. I'm not sure about that.

Bhaloo #127- #128:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Can you read that to me, loud voice please?
A. 1.6: 'The Constitution, and in the event of conflict the Constitution...'
Q. From the title. And read it slowly so she can type.
A. Okay. 'These Rules and Regulations shall be read with '(a) the Constitution, and in the event of conflict the Constitution shall prevail; and '(b) any Farman made after the date hereof, and in event of conflict the said Farman shall prevail, and a later Farman shall prevail over an earlier.'

Bhaloo #133:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Okay. You have read the Constitution. We have just read article 1.6. In your understanding, does it say that a farman which is made after the Constitution will supersede any article of the Constitution if there is a conflict?
A. I am not sure about that. I'm not an constitutional expert.

Is there a breach of the Ismaili constitution?

Obviously, if there was a clear breach of the ismaili constitution, then this case would have been in the Arbitration board.
Discussions about the constitution have revolved around the specific clauses about Farmans that were included in previous constitutions but that have been removed from the newer constitution since 1986. Older constitutions distinguished between religious publications and Farmans. The clauses about Farmans were removed by the Imam, but the clauses about the other religious publications remained intact.

Sachedina maintains that the constitution has been breached and that in the case of Farmans, only the Imam can Publish or authorize publication, Not Itreb, not the Council. However, if the current constitution is to be relied on to prove the breach, then article 14.1c lets the Ismaili Council authorize publications (and this is how Mr Gray seems to understand it), and Article 8.4d gives the ITREB's the responsibility to publish. Neither article reserves the right for the Imam. This leaves us with Farmans to follow which say that Imam makes Farmans FOR Jamats.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #580 - #584:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And I am referring you to Article 14.1(c)?
A. Yes?
Q. And (c) says: '...Without the permission in writing of the National Council obtained through the regional council...' Have you ever requested the permission of the National Council under that article?
A. I didn't have to.
Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked you, did you ever request the permission in writing of the National Council?
A. No, because I had consent from the Imam.
Q. Okay. And I take it you never asked...just to be specific, you didn't ask the permission in writing of the National Council to print or publish or circulate any material that is on behalf of, in the name of, or relating to Mawlana Hazar Imam, the plaintiff?
A. I don't believe it talks of Hazar Imam.
Q. I didn't ask you that, either. I asked you if you ever asked for the permission in writing...
A. No.

Jiwa #45 - #48:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Okay. I am showing you a copy of Exhibit 13, which I understand you have a copy still there from this morning.
A. Yes.
Q. And can you identify that as the Constitution of the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims?
A. This is part of the constitution. Our constitution consists of two parts; the constitution and the rules and regulations for each country.
Q. Right.
A. The 1986 constitution that was distributed in Canada had within that document the constitution as well as rules and regulations. This is just the constitution. The rules and regulations are still embodied in the 1986 constitution.
Q. Okay. And can you produce the rules and regulations for me?
A. I can, yes.

Jiwa #56 - #62:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And in respect particularly to article 14.1(c), have you ever asked for permission in writing of the National Council obtained through
the regional councils to print or publish or circulate any material?
A. I don't need the council's permission.
Q. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Jiwa. I asked you if you ever...
A. No, because you are...
Q. Please answer the question.
A. You are referring to 14.1(c), so if you are going to refer to 14.1(c) then I am going to say I don't need their permission.
Q. Well...
A. So if you want to ask me without referring to the 14.1(c), then you can ask me without referring to that and I have already answered you earlier that I did not.
Q. Right, so...
A. If you are going to ask me pertaining to this, then I don't need consent...
Q. That isn't the question I asked you. I asked you if...
A. You are referring me to 14.1.
Q. I asked you if you ever asked for permission in writing of the National Council obtained through the regional council to print or publish or circulate any material: Yes or no?
A. You already asked me earlier, and I said no.

Sachedina #261 - #269:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. I'm going to go back to that. I said to you: Is there any farman or any article in the Constitution that says that farmans cannot be released for distribution to the jamats before the Imam has edited and approved them? That's my question.
A. It is not in the Constitution, but that's a process established by the present Imam.
Q. So what I'm saying to you --
A. Imam is above the Constitution, I explained to you. He transcends the Constitution in a sense that even if the Constitution is there, Imam has a right to do what he wishes to do. He has the authority to change or to decide or to alter or to do whatever he wishes to do.
Q. I'll come back to that in a second. I just want to focus on the question that I asked you. My question, and I'm going to repeat it again: Is there any article in the Constitution or is there any farman that says before any farman that has been made by the Imam, before it is distributed to the jamats, has to be edited and approved by the Imam? That's my question.
A. Not in the way that you describe.
Q. Now, you said earlier -- as you were just answering this issue, I see your lawyer is pointing you to something?
A. The same --
MR. GRAY: Article 14.1(c).
THE DEPONENT: That's the one that I read. Because you're talking about the issue of editing and the issue about farmans, and this to me is the article. That's why I quoted you that article.
Q. Sir, the article that you are quoting me, the 14.1 that your lawyer also is pointing you to see, show me where does it say that it's the Imam who is going to edit and approve before they are released. On the
contrary, it seems to suggest that National Council can do that decision. You are saying all along that the Imam approves and edits farmans?
A. National Council has no authority to edit farmans.
Q. But you're pointing to this --
A. No, it's not. I'm talking about, very clearly, the provisions in this Constitution that gives unfettered right to the Imam.
Q. Okay. 14.1(c), where does it say the Imam has to approve or it gives him the unfettered right, 14.1(c)?
A. No, but it's Imam you're talking about that there is -- anybody who prints, publishes or circulates any material.
Q. But this is not my question. I mean --
A. The questions you are asking is Imam edits, is it in the Constitution, and I'm saying to you not the way as you've described it in the Constitution. I'm saying there are provisions but not the way about editing
or the way that you describe, it's not that.
Q. Now, I'm suggesting to you that what you are saying is simply your opinion and perhaps Mr. Keshavjee's opinion and perhaps other leaders' opinion. But I say to you that the Constitution nor any farman says that a farman that's been made by the Imam may not be distributed to the jamat before it's edited and authorized by the Imam?
MR. GRAY: You've already indicated these are questions of opinion. The Constitution is here. The interpretation of the Constitution I'm sure you will argue before a judge. We'll read the words of the Constitution, and so far as it's relevant, we'll deal with it as a matter of interpretation.
THE DEPONENT: I take my instructions from His Highness, and that's what His Highness has conveyed to me.

Sachedina #370 - 388:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now --
A. For the present time, this Imam has authorized the ITREBs to be the body, relevant body for publications or, rather, distributions of all the religious matter, according to the constitution.
Q. There is nothing in the Constitution that says ITREB has been given this power?
A. It is there. If you come back to that ITREB, as I say to you, if you look at the -- all the materials relevant to the Islam and the Ismaili tariqa, that if you look at --
Q. Which clause?
A. 8.4(d). And that is the role. If you look at tariqa and Religious Education Board, if you look at that, it says, '...undertake the publication of books and material on relevant aspects of Islam and the Ismaili
Tariqah;'
Q. And he talks of books and materials; right?
A. Yes. On Ismaili tariqa, farmans are part of the tariqa material.
Q. All right. But it doesn't specify farmans, does it?
A. It's included. It's inclusive.
Q. So why --
A. Ismaili tariqa has material, and the tariqa board is responsible, and farmans are part of the Ismaili tariqa, and the doctrine of the Ismailis, sir.
Q. Isn't that contradictory to everything you've been saying to date?
A. What?
Q. You are completely contradictory. You are contradicting yourself, sir, aren't you?
A. What -- the farmans --
Q. You --
A. Release of the farmans, this is the body that actually releases the farmans for the jamat. The process we're talking about, earlier on you said ITREBs, and I said ITREB, yes.
Q. Fine. So if you look at 8.4(b) and if that is your jurisdiction to say ITREB has jurisdiction over farmans, then why do you need Hazar Imam's approval?
MR. GRAY: Look at the beginning of 8.4.
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Where does it say --
A. It is always done under the behest of the Imam.
Q. Excuse me, sir, where does it say that approval for approval for publication of farmans --
A. If you read 8.4, it says: 'Each Tariqah and Religious Education Board shall under the direction and guidance of Mawlana Hazar Imam.' Not without his directions or guidance. And I want to point out to you it will therefore under Imam's direction undertake the publication of books and materials of relevance to Islam and Ismaili tariqa. The distribution process is part of the responsibility of the tariqa board once given authorization by the Imam of the Time. Does that not make sense to you?
Q. No, it doesn't, because it is one thing to say under the direction and guidance of Mowlana Hazar Imam, and it's another thing to say you need his prior approval. If you look at the Rules and Regulations, if you
look at the Rules and Regulations, function 24, those are the powers that have been granted to each local tariqa board.
A. But that's local tariqa board. You're talking about the national tariqa boards. Because the farmans, I kept on telling you, they come to the national boards, not the local boards.
Q. Right.
A. It's the national board that directs them.
Q. All right. Now -- and this is what you are saying is a breach of the Ismaili Constitution?
A. The article -- in my view, both article 14.1(c) and article 8.4(d) are -- very much work together.
Q. Right. And those are your authority --
A. And I've told you --
Q. Yes?
A. -- there's the Constitution. You have -- the letter from the Imam of the Time telling him not to do that. You have the second letter from the Imam to tell you not to do that. You have an affirmation that says not to do that. And then you also have very clearly the Statement of Claim which was filed by the Mr. Plaintiff, the Imam of the Time saying I don't want you to do that.
Q. Sir --
A. So there are four documents telling you not to do that. Five documents now.
Q. Those documents you know are being disputed by us. But we'll come to that. We'll come to that.

Who Can Print Farmans

It is the Imam's prerogative to decide who can print Farmans, and it can be anyone.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #848 - #849:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Would you say it's the prerogative of the Imam to decide who to tell to print the farman?
A. The ultimate authority when it comes to printing the farmans, publishing the farmans, Hazar Imam will direct. Any institution within his power, constitutional bodies, IIS -- anybody, he will decide who be able to do the printing.
Q. Does he have the right to give it to any other person?
A. Absolutely his complete prerogative.

How long did Defendants know about the Forgery before making it public?

It turns out that in order to protect the trust that Jamati institutions have with the Jamat, the defendants had not publicized their knowledge of forgery until after the Lawsuit was filed when they no longer had the choice.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #152 - 158:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. ...You received the letter that is now Exhibit 3, as you said, by e-mail?
A. Yes.
Q. Right.
A. First by e-mail, then I insisted to receive the original...
Q. Right.
A. ...and I received it after quite a long time, maybe three weeks.
Q. Right. And you said...
A. And I had to insist many, many times to get the original.
Q. And you received the original when?
A. Sometime in February, mid-February.
Q. February 13?
A. That is likely.
Q. But in the meantime, you sent the photocopy, didn't you, or the electronic copy you had received, you sent it to two experts for examination?
A. Yes, I did.

N. Tajdin #179:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Based on that, you are accusing Ms. Parkes of criminal behaviour, are you not?
A. Actually, it is not only because of the expertise. The content of the report...you know, for an Ismaili who will read this letter, it is very evident that His Highness has not written this letter, but the expertise was needed for people who are not Ismaili, who cannot, from reading the letter, know that this is not written by the Imam.
Q. I asked you a simple question. Based on the...at this point, you received only a photocopy of the letter...
A. Yes.

N. Tajdin #187 - #251:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Okay. But will you agree with me that...okay, let's deal with the next one. And you circulated this allegation of forgery, did you not, to other people?
A. I sent...yes, I sent to a couple of people.
Q. Who did you send it to?
A. I will not give you names.
Q. Okay.
A. If you want reason, I will give you reason why. Do you need a reason why...
Q. Sure. Why are you not giving me the names of the people you sent it to?
A. In this file, whenever there is a name which goes out, for example, Karim Alibhay, he gets harassed the whole day and night, he gets phone calls, threats, so I am not going to give any names.
Q. All right.
A. It would not be fair for the people, right?
Q. Right. But in any event, you circulated it to people who you knew were going to circulate it to other people?
A. No.
Q. You circulated...
A. No, when I circulated, it was under
the understanding that this was to be contained.
Q. But...
A. Even when I received the letter from...one of the original, from the president of the Aga Khan council in Nairobi, I had a small discussion with him, and he told me he didn't want me to talk to anyone about it, and I said, 'No, it has to be contained, because people will lose faith in the leadership if they know these things are happening'.
Q. So, then, you...
A. And it was not...
Q. How many people did you send the...
A. A couple of them.
Q. A couple of them? Two people, you sent the notice...
A. Two or three.
Q. ...you told them...two or three?
A. Yes.
Q. At that point?
A. Yes.
Q. Subsequently, you said you told other...
A. Well, after the lawsuit, it was apparent that everything would come to the light, so...
Q. Even before the lawsuit, you sent it to other people, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Even before the lawsuit, it was widely known on the Ismaili Heritage website, wasn't it?
A. Before the lawsuit, no, absolutely not. There was nothing on that subject on ismaili.net before the lawsuit.

Jiwa #206 - #253:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Yes. So, when did Mr. Tajdin tell you about the forgeries of the letters, the alleged forgeries of the letter of January 24 or February 18?
A. I don't recall the exact date, but it was in...when he received the first letter. It may have been the very day or the next few days is when he told me that he had received a letter.
Q. And at that point he told you it was a forgery?
A. I don't think at that point he told me, but I was actually in disbelief when he told me that he has received a letter.
Q. You didn't believe that His Highness would have sent a letter telling you not to do it?
A. Yes. I was in disbelief and I said, 'You know what? I don't believe it'. The funny thing is he didn't send me a copy of the letter.
Q. Who is 'he'?
A. Mr. Tajdin did not give me a copy. He just told me that on the phone. and...
Q. So, you were in a state of disbelief
A. I was, yes. I was.
Q. But did Mr. Tajdin tell you at that time that the letter was a forgery?
A. You know what? I don't think he told me the very first day. I think he told me maybe a few days later.
Q. A few days later.
A. A few days later.
Q. Before he had sent it to an expert. He just knew it was a forgery?
A. Yes, before he sent it.
Q. And...
A. I suggested, I said, you know...actually, Nagib told me his mother told him that from the letters that she has, this is not Imam's signature at all. So I told Nagib, I said, 'Look, when we have a situation like that, we send it to an expert'. So I found the two names and I said, 'Let's send it for them'.
Q. And so you helped him send the two...the letters to an expert?
A. I didn't help him send. He sent it straight, because even after we received the reports, I did not see the letter.
Q. You didn't see the letter. But you saw the reports?
A. I saw the reports.
Q. And did you give the experts any instructions as to what to do?
A. No, I did not communicate with the experts, except for one I paid for. I paid for one of the experts.
Q. Which expert?
A. I would have to look it up. One of the two.
Q. One of the two, Carlson or Petinatti. I'm sorry, Carlson or...
A. Because, you know, Nagib's...
Q. It was not Ospreay, though?
A. Ospreay...the first two experts... one of the two I paid. One of the two I paid. Nagib's credit card was not going through. She was trying to ring it through and it wouldn't be accepted, so Nagib told me if I can pay. So then I paid from here.
Q. So...
A. I don't know. One of the two.
Q. Petinatti or Carlson?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. Okay. And how many other people did Mr. Tajdin tell about the forgeries?
A. In terms of experts?
Q. No, no, just in terms of people. He told you about the forgery; right?
A. I don't know. You know, the person that I buy the books from, I discuss with him.
Q. So he knew about the forgery?
A. Yes.
Q. This is the distributor of the books?
A. This is the distributor, yes.
Q. Or the alleged forgery.
A. The alleged forgery, right.
Q. And who else did Mr. Nagib tell? A. You know, I really don't know. I mean, Mr. Tajdin and I, although I have known him for almost some 20 years, but we have never been, sort of, friends. We have never visited...I have never visited his home or he my home. We essentially met at some seminars that...at first I met him when he organized a seminar on our Khojki...it is known as a Khojki script.
Q. Okay.
A. So, we have never been in a sense friends that I associated with. I mean, my interest from Nagib was just to get the Farmans from him.
Q. So, who else did you tell about the forgeries, then?
A. At the time it happened?
Q. Yes.
A. At the time it happened, I didn't discuss it with anybody.
Q. February, 2010.
A. I don't recall telling others.
Q. And when is the first time you told someone else about the forgery?
A. After the litigation started.
Q. After the litigation.
A. Yes.
Q. After what day?
A. April.
Q. April...
A. Whatever. It was in April. I first told my mom.
Q. Sorry?
A. I first told my mother.
Q. You first told your mother.
A. Of course.
Q. That is sweet.
A. She was at my home...so I did tell her.
Q. But that was after the litigation...
A. Yes.
Q. ...was started.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember when you told her about the forgeries?
A. To whom?
Q. When did you tell your mom?
A. I told my mom after the litigation started.
Q. Well, the litigation started in April.
A. Yes. I don't remember the date, but it was in April. I know after the litigation started.
Q. Was it before you filed your Statement of Defence...
A. Yes.
Q. ...alleging the forgeries?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. After that, I was telling everybody, including my sister. My whole family was in shock, of course.
Q. This was after you filed or when you filed the Statement of Defence?
A. Yes. Because before filing the Statement of Defence, the issue of even the prohibition and stuff was technically not public. And finally it was Mr. Tajdin who sort of...I don't even know all the distributors. I just know...
Q. The distributors all knew, and presumably they were telling people buying the books that...there were people...
A. At that time?
Q. Well, let's put it this way...
A. Before the litigation or after the litigation? There is a big difference between the two. Before the litigation...I am talking about before the litigation at the moment.
Q. Yes. Right.
A. Before the litigation, the only person who knew was Mr. Tajdin. Then he told me. And then there is this one distributor that I buy books from. I discussed with him about this.

What is Mr Sachedina's actual role at Aiglemont

Mr Sachedina's role a head of the department of jamati institutions is not a constitutional position, and the department of Jamati institutions cannot give new directions to institutions. Ismaili Institutions do not report to Mr. Sachedina. He coordinates their work, but ultimately, the institutions are answerable to the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #206:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, would you agree with me that your appointment as the Head of the Department of Jamati Institutions and Head of the Department of Diplomatic Affairs at Aiglemont and a Member of Aga Khan Development Network and a Member of the Board of Governors have not been read in jamat khanas by way of talika as other institution appointments?
A. Correct. Because these are all held at the behest of the Imam at the time of his pleasure.

Sachedina #220 - #228:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. So when you say 'coordinating,' what do you coordinate?
A. The budgets of the institutions.
Q. Right.
A. The plans we coordinate.
Q. Right.
A. Their activities in terms of what is to be done within the guidance given the Imam of the Time, these institutions are operating within those guidance that he has given.
Q. Do they report to you?
A. Who?
Q. Those institutions?
A. They report -- all of them are appointed by Mowlana Hazar Imam. So first and foremost, all of them are accountable to the Imam of the Time as institutional leaders. Because their appointment is not by me; it is by the Imam of the Time. I am coordinating their activities.
Q. So you cannot direct them what to do?
A. Unless given by the Imam. And I also would be able to look at the directions that the Imam has given that may need to be followed through as guidance for these institutions. So I coordinate that between the Imam and this institution in terms of the functioning of that institution.
Q. So, for example, ITREB Ontario, you say you are also coordinating them?
A. No. Ontario -- first of all, the point of reference is the national ITREB, according to the Constitution. So the national bodies are the ones that we coordinate at the imamat level.
Q. Right.
A. There are regional bodies and there are local bodies. Those are not coordinated in the sense that they are national jurisdiction.
Q. So when you use the word 'coordination,' if I say that your responsibility was just passing messages back and forth the documents that come back to the Imam from the various institutions, you just organize them and send it over to the Imam if necessary?
A. No. If the institutions have a number of issues, their first point of reference in terms of their activities in terms of their what I call 'functional work,' that is the administrative work, the work that they are doing, the point of reference is the Department of Jamati Institutions at Aiglemont through the ITREB coordinator who coordinates, first of all, all the tariqa board activities.

Sachedina #578 - #579:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Mr. Sachedina, as head of the Department of Jamati Institutions, the position that you hold, it's not a position that's recognized by our Ismaili Constitution; it's just appointed by His Highness?
A. It's a position that has been at the behest of the Imam.
Q. Yes, but it's not under the Constitution; it's by his Secretariat?
A. Yes. The Constitutional -- or the position under the Constitution is only the LIF, and I only sit on the LIF on behalf of His Highness as a member of the LIF.

What is the relationship between Defendants and Plaintiff's witnesses?

Both Sachedina and Bhaloo agree that they are in goodterms with the defendants. In the Case of Alnaz Jiwa, they don't recall ever interacting with him. In the case of Nagib Tajdin, they claim cordial, even warm relations with him, admit that he has never acted unrespectfully against either of them, and that his family was well-respected until the Announcements and the Lawsuit.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin #561:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. ...Mr. Sachedina has no power to consent to the publication of Farmans?
A. I agree.
Q. You agree with that, okay. But you also agree with me that Mr. Sachedina does speak to His Highness from time to time?
A. I am sure he does.
Q. And he does convey messages from His Highness to you? For instance, he conveyed messages about blessings for your family, right?
A. Yes, he did.

Sachedina #328:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. In fact, in the plane ride you were going to and coming back from Syria in 2001, you know there were two other individuals with Mr. Tajdin?
A. I'll tell you now I have no recollection of who these individuals are or what they do. I have to tell you that. Because I did not look at them from that view. Because my relationship with Nagib has always been maintained on a real cooperative and in a manner of not adversarial at all.
MR. GRAY: Until now.

Sachedina #580 - #585:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
MR. TAJDIN: Okay. Shafik, I have a problem because we have been close and I have been calling you 'Shafik,' and I think I will be calling you 'Mr. Sachedina' so at least there is a consistency. But just for court, not between us. I hope you don't mind. It's not meant to be disrespect or distance between us.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Shafik, you know me since quite a few years now, and we bump into each other at many, many places. I think in Syria, in Cairo, recently in Zanzibar at the opening of the Forodhani Park. Even Nairobi you came for the nation's 50 years?
Q. That was the opening that His Highness also came. And you see me sometimes taking pictures, videos. And would you say that I always remain at a respectable distance of the Imam?
A. Absolutely.
Q. I have never tried to overstep. And would you accept that probably this is because we have a code of conduct, that unless the Imam allows, we would not approach within his privacy area or his short distance or -- you agree to that?
A. Yes, you travel all over the world. I know that, and obviously you travel wherever His Highness goes.
Q. Exactly.
A. And you are around and I know that you show yourself there.
Q. And I never tried to overstep and go and talk and bother him with anything? And that code of conduct also says that unless the Imam allows, we should not talk to him or even give a gift. Even to give a gift, we have to get permission. If Imam note or make a sign that we are allowed, then we approach and we always -- even during deedars it's always in submission; right?
--- Off-the-record discussion.

Sachedina #635 - #637
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. Mr. Sachedina, you know my family since a long time also. It's not a family which is disputing all the time with the leadership; right? And you know our relation, we are always respectful and I have never raised my voice; right? Is it right?
A. We've always had a civil discussion.
Q. Right. And we have always been taking tea together when we bump into each other in many countries; right? Right? Yes, I --
A. Yes, well, we have not all the time, but when I am there and you have offered me sometime, I've always had a cup of tea with you.
Q. Okay. And vice-versa?
A. Absolutely.

Bhaloo #114 - #121:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Mr. Bhaloo, you know me at least since 20 years, I think?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).
Q. We have always had very amicable relations?
A. We still have.
Q. And we still. And when you were president, vice-president, I was living in your jurisdiction in Canada. And would you agree that we have never had a fight?
A. I generally don't like to fight.
Q. And I also don't like to fight. So there is no -- and there has never been any fight between us. I've never raised the tone with you. I have always been respectable; you agree to that?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).
Q. And you would say the same thing of my family?
THE DEPONENT: All right. I know your family.
Q. You know my family and we are all civilized people; right?
A. Right.
Q. I think we also have some family relation from the mother's side or something; right?
A. Generations ago maybe, yes.
Q. Generations to generations. Okay. Would you agree that may family is well respected in the jamat -- let me rephrase that -- was well respected in the jamat before this announcement and this lawsuit and -- was it very respected? Yes? No?
A. Yes.

Why is Alnaz Jiwa included in the Lawsuit?

It turns out that Alnaz has no role in the publication and a minimal role in the distribution of the KIZ Farman book series. The reason he was included in the lawsuit seems to be due to a confusion on Mr Sachedina's part.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Jiwa #145 - #178:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Now, turning to Exhibit C in your...Mr. Tajdin's original affidavit, this is the Golden Edition that you were involved in?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you been involved in the printing of this book?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Have you been involved in the distribution of the book?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of these books were printed?
A. I don't know.
Q. How many have you distributed?
A. I think I have distributed about 80.
Q. Eighty?
A. Yes.
Q. And you distributed these, I take it, by your LISTSERV?
A. No.
Q. You didn't distribute this by the LISTSERV?
A. No. The copies that I sold...one mailed to Chicago. I received a personal e-mail from a person that I have communicated with in the past.
Q. Okay.
A. The rest are all personal within the GT A.
Q. Personal in the GTA, so you...friends or relatives or people you know?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what about your LISTSERV, ILM...you have a LISTSERV, ILM?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. ILM...
A. ILM-net, yes. It is out of University of Manitoba.
Q. And is that something that is a website or it is just something you send out a broadcast e-mail?
A. It is just a broadcast e-mail.
Q. And you distribute the books through that?
A. Not this Golden Edition.
Q. Not the Golden Edition?
A. No.
Q. And some of the earlier books that Mr. Tajdin has, you distributed through your LISTSERV?
A. I have never distributed any through the...other than this one book, I never distributed anything...well, I sent a few to my family in Kenya, but other than that, I have not distributed any over the mail.
Q. Okay.
A. All the books that I distributed are strictly personal. Like, personal meetings, one-to- one. I often deliver them myself.
Q. And the selling price for the book?
A. This Golden Edition is $50.
Q. And the printing price, the cost to you?
A. The cost to me is $50.
Q. The cost to you is $50?
A. Yes. Canadian.
Q. You don't know what the printing price is?
A. I don't know.
Q. And when did you start doing this?
A. I think I got the first batch just before Christmas. Because it was during the Christmas holidays that I visited family and I...yes, I have given them out.
Q. And are you still doing it?
A. I have been too busy lately, so I have not done any lately.
Q. So you have stopped, then?
A. I haven't stopped, but, as I told you, mostly I sell them to personal contacts.
Q. When is the last one you distributed, then, or sold?
A. I think I gave two copies to my brother. He came to pick it up from me. It is about a month. Maybe three, four, five weeks ago.
Q. Three or four or five weeks ago.
A. Yes.
Q- And before that, the two copies to your brother; before that, when was the last one you sold or distributed or gave away?
A. Before that, after listening to this, one of my client's family picked up, I think, four books from me.
Q. And when was that?
A. I am not sure, but I think this is around the time Haz Imam was here. Around May.
Q. Around the end of May?
A. Yes. Mostly this time I have been selling only to people that I have known and in contact with. So, I normally even when my clients come in I don't normally tell them to buy this. But if they hear from somebody else, they might come and ask me.
Q. And how about the audio bookmark? Did you have any involvement in the production of that?
A. No. I have nothing to do with production.
Q. Nothing to do with the production.
A. Yes.
Q. And any involvement in the collection of the audio speeches?
A. No.
Q. Why does the book not identify a publisher; do you know?
A. You know, Nagib told me once...this was way before. I actually asked him this, I said, 'You know what? There should be some contact on there', because quite often people would tell me they don't know...when I sent to my cousin, my first cousin in Kenya, and so they ask for it but I say I normally don't ship them. I don't even I have time. So I told him, I said, 'You should put at least one number or something', and he says, 'Look, we are doing this...so we don't...' my understanding is Nagib is also selling to people that he know, that he knows at this time. So, it has never been, sort of, an issue that we are going to be mass distribution sort of.
Q. Right.
A. So that was my understanding. You know, it is just being sold...and my understanding also is the reason that he put it into book form is he normally was giving photocopies of it and that was taking too much time and energy and they were being, sort of, not placed properly at people's homes. Loose copies.

Jiwa #187 - #205:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Do you pay Mr. Tajdin for the books?
A. I don't pay to Mr. Tajdin. I pick them up from a local distributor here.
Q. Who is the local distributor?
A. I won't name him now.
Q. You won't name him now. And where do you...
A. Mr. Sachedina knows them.
Q. And who do you pay?
A. To him.
Q. If Mr. Sachedina knows them, why wouldn't you tell me?
A. Because most of the stuff that is going on in the affidavits is becoming public on the websites. There is a new website that has opened recently. So, people do get harassed. Even I get harassed. So that is the reason.
Q. I see. Well, you...
A. I haven't paid him yet. I owe him for the 50 books...for the 96, I believe, I picked up. I haven't even collected the monies, because most of them are my family and friends.
Q. I see. So, 96 books, you haven't collected the money. And of the 96, you have distributed 80...
A. About 80 I have distributed.
Q. So you probably have 16 left then?
A. About 16 or so, yes. I mean, I haven't counted but it is in that range. I have collected some money, but not all.
Q. So your evidence is you have not sold the books over the web?
A. No.
Q. So, when I show you this...let's see. Excuse me. I am going to show you Exhibit 14. That is not you selling the book on the web; that is Ismaili.net ?
A. Well, this is Ismaili.net .
Q. Right, so you have not...
A. I have no connection with Ismaili.net .
Q. And you haven't sold them through the ILM-net?
A. Through ILM-net I put this brochure on as advertising, but frankly I don't have enough time and I primarily have been giving it only to family and friends.
Q. So you have put that brochure on the ILM-net?
A. ILM-net, yes.
Q. The ILM-net, you have put that brochure on?
A. Yes.
Q. So you have advertised the book on the 'net?
A. Yes, I have. No, not on the 'net. You can't call it the web. ILM-net is...
Q. Through electronic e-mail distribution, let me put it that way.
A. Let me put it this way: ILM-net is a group of, if I can say, friends or Ismailis that I admit. So you cannot become a member, even if you are an Ismaili, just like this. So it is like me sitting at home with my friends. So it is a restricted ILM-net.
Q. Restricted Internet circulation; would that be fair?
A. Yes. I only admit them if I do; otherwise I don't admit them. So nobody can join in automatically.
Q. Are you involved at all in Ismaili.net?
A. No, I am not.
Q. You are not an editor of it?
A. I have nothing to do with it. don't even have time if I wanted to.

Sachedina #638 - #639:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. ...Now, here I read in number 28. This is something which I have always had this question in my mind, that you seem to think that Mr. Jiwa operates a website. And I was surprised to read that. Were you thinking that he's co-operating my website or was it another website?
A. I think -- I didn't know about this. You told me that.
Q. I told you that Mr. Jiwa is operating a website?
A. Yes. Yes. No, you said to me in your email when you were trying to remove the book from the website --

Sachedina #642:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Mr. Sachedina, I never wrote that Mr. Jiwa. Can you bring this --
A. Yes. Am I allowed to --

Sachedina #647-650:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. I'm talking about the fact that you're mentioning Mr. Jiwa's website. Which website --
A. It's your website. I'm talking about your website.
Q. No, but what you are writing here, 'operated by Mr. Tajdin and Alnaz'?
A. Yes, because -- I am trying to explain to you, Nagib Tajdin, that the letter -- the email you sent me -- first you said to me the book has been removed from the website.
Q. Yes.
A. Your website. And then you said to me -- then I complained to you that the book is still being advertised and there is still a thread there on the website because it's still being advertised. So you said to me, 'Shafik, don't worry,' and 'I have spoken to Alnaz Jiwa, who will ensure that this will be taken care of.'
Q. Okay, can we have in the undertaking that I need a copy of the email?
MR. GRAY: We'll get you a copy of that email.
--- UNDERTAKING

Sachedina #653 - #663:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Did you not tell me to tell Alnaz not to write these things he was writing about, the farman book and the Constitution and all those things?
A. I -- sorry. Nagib, I am not aware of that conversation --
Q. You don't remember?
A. -- because I don't know Alnaz Jiwa at all. It's the first time today formally that I've actually met Alnaz Jiwa.
Q. Okay. Can we agree then, can we agree, would you agree -- is this the way to ask the question? Would you agree that if in this undertaking you bring the email and it doesn't say that I will ask Mr. Jiwa to remove from his website, there has never been a question of Mr. Jiwa having a website and this conversation which you are saying?
A. I didn't know whether he -- I thought he was connected with the website because if he could do what you gave him instructions from the website, I presumed he's involved with the website. That's the only connection I have.
Q. Is this why his name was put on the lawsuit?
A. He has -- he was part of this, he was involved with this, and I --
Q. Part of the publication?
A. I think that all the people who were involved in the sense that they were known, were people who are engaged with this website. And because Alnaz I think also had posted on the website a thing that he said that I have -- you know, after the announcement was made, he had a very long email saying that --
Q. Okay. So you are referring to his email list?
A. Yes.
Q. What's posted on his email list, not on his website?
A. Well, to me, it's electronic and -- all of this, from my point of view, is a methodology of --
Q. Mr. Sachedina, then on the lawsuit it says the same thing. But the Imam, who is a graduate from Harvard, he knows the difference between an email list and a website. But it says that Mr. Jiwa is operating a website; isn't it true?
A. I don't think I've said to you this website, because it's your website in which he has been associated. So he obviously has connection with the website. So to me he is involved with the website.
Q. So if this email that you will produce as an undertaking doesn't say this, you will accept that it's not there; right?
A. As I said to you, I don't have the words here.
MR. GRAY: If the email doesn't say it, then it doesn't say it. We'll accept that.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Yes. Because for the moment I am hearing that I have written that Mr. Jiwa had a website?
A. No. No. I didn't say that Mr. Jiwa -- as I said, you said in your email that when I complained to you that the book is still being advertised and there is still a thread there, you said to me -- you sent me an email to say that 'I have asked Alnaz Jiwa, who will actually deal with this matter and make sure that there is no reference to this.' So immediately I realized that and you and Alnaz are involved with this website.
Q. Okay. So let's have the email which will prove conclusively that it is not right, and we can all --
MR. GRAY: Or that it is right, as the case may be.
MR. TAJDIN: Yes. And if it is right, I will make my apologies to Mr. Sachedina. And I hope also --
MR. GRAY: We'll look forward to that.
MR. TAJDIN: And vice-versa, I hope; right?
MR. GRAY: Well, it's --
MR. TAJDIN: I guess this means no.
THE DEPONENT: Well, it's my best recollection. I wish I hadn't got -- but I haven't got the papers here, so.

Are Farmans made Available to Non-Ismailis?

ITREB is manned 100% by ismailis who have taken the ismaili oath of office. The IIS is manned at all levels by many non-ismailis who are not bound by the constitution. Why then, are Farmans asked to be sent to IIS and not ITREB?

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #14 -#19:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, you said earlier that you did review some materials. Can you elaborate on that? What materials did you review? I heard you say something about the Institute as well, you reviewed some documents?
A. Yes, I have read through the Constitution, which was at the Institute as well. There's copies there. I have looked at all the materials vis-a-vis the farmans as well. Because from my point of view, the documents are also kept at the IIS as well, the final text that we also have there.
Q. So all the final text of farmans are kept at IIS?
A. No. At the Imamat level, at the Institute level, so -- and at the Department of Jamati Institution.
Q. So at the Institute, the final copy of the farmans are not kept?
A. We have a copy.
Q. At the Institute?
A. True, because --
--- The reporter appeals.
Q. And, I'm sorry, I'm actually lost. Is there a copy at the Institute or there's no copy at the Institute?
A. No. Farmans, as I said, once they have been approved and authorized by Hazar Imam -- Hazar Imam, which is His Highness.
MR. GRAY: H-a-z-a-r, new word, I-m-a-m.
THE DEPONENT: Once they are released by the Imam, we always have a copy at the Secretariat, at the Imam's office. We also have one at the Institute in our -- for archival purposes.
Q. You said one you have it at the Secretariat as well?
A. The 'Secretariat,' that means the Secretariat of His Highness, and the Department of Jamati Institutions.

Sachedina #208 - #214:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. But there are many non-Ismaili members appointed to the Institute?
A. Yes, only as part of the board of governors But the Imam -- the chairman is the Imam of the Time.
Q. I understand. The jamati institutions that we spoke with earlier that announcements are made in talika, those are all hundred per cent Ismaili appointees?
A. Correct. The jamati appointments are constitutional bodies.
Q. And in the Institute there are non-Ismaili who are appointed there, aren't there?
A. Yes, all the directors on the board of governors.
Q. And the employees, there are no non-Ismailis there?
A. There are people. But what I'm saying is this is an institution, and the centrality of its work a tariqa, but also other, Shia Islam and Islamic in general.
Q. But what I'm trying to say, and perhaps if you could just listen, is ITREB is hundred per cent Ismaili men?
A. ITREB is a constitutional body.
Q. Right. And hundred per cent Ismaili men; yes?
A. Correct.
Q. Institute is not hundred per cent Ismaili men. There's a difference between the two, isn't there?
A. But I explained to you the Institute has a board of governors and they have a staff with maybe Ismailis and non-Ismailis, but the Imam is the chair of the Institute.
Q. And those members who are appointed to the Institute don't take this oath of office that we spoke of earlier?
A. No. They are directors.
Q. Even the members who are appointed to Institute, those employees, they did not take an oath of office?
A. No. This is an institution for learning.

Sachedina #928:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. And you are -- are you governor of the IIS?
A. I am a governor of the Institute.

Contradiction: Did Sachedina give Nagib's address to Michelle Parkes?

Sachedina started saying that he had nothing to do with Miss Parkes' correspondance with Mr Tajdin. However, he was not able to stick to that story.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #943 - #947:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. This is last question. Last question. The first letter dated 24th January was sent to me on 11th of February from Aiglemont. Did you give -- was it you who gave my address to Ms. Parkes, sent it to the DHL --
A. Sorry, to the DHL address?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I had nothing to do.
Q. Okay.
A. It was Ms. Parkes. Ms. Parkes dealt with you directly on this matter.
Q. But Mrs. --
A. I was only informed subsequently.
Q. Okay. So if Mrs. Parkes has never received the address from me, would it mean she has received it from you?
A. She would have asked if I have the address. Because I have the addresses of lots of people, and if she asked me would I have, because they all know that I have been in contact with you and we are in contact with each other, we have been in contact. So it's only natural that she would look to somebody so who is in contact with you.

Contradiction: Imam's criticism of Leaders in London

Mr Sachedina maintains that the Imam's comment about Leaders in London during Golden Jubilee was incomplete. This statement is shown to be false.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

N. Tajdin # 210.
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Okay. We will get back to that, then. Now, have you ever accused the leadership before of forging?
A. Of forging? Never.

N. Tajdin #213:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. You have accused the leadership of misrepresenting His Highness' instructions before, haven't you?
A. Sometimes, it has, and in fact, His Highness has confirmed in London recently that sometimes it tells his leader, and they don't tell his followers. So, the message is not always passed.
Q. What are you referring to?
A. I am referring to a Farmans met by His Highness in London during Golden Jubilee.
Q. And what does that Farmans say?
A. It says, the leader asked me, I tell them but I don't know if they tell you, or something like that. It is not an exact quote.

Sachedina #426:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. But I'm going to give you an example, that in Golden Jubilee in London, he said in the jamat khana in the presence of thousands of -- or the whole jamat that his leaders do not convey his message to the jamats, he is not sure of that. You agree with that; right? You were there.
A. I was there, but as I said to you, that it was not completed, the sentence wasn't completed, his chain of thoughts were not completed.

Sachedina #850 - #861:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. ...Now, you mention the sentence that the Imam was going to stay in London during Golden Jubilee about the leaders was cut off?
A. No. I said he didn't -- he didn't finish his sentence and there was an interruption. That's all I can remember.
Q. Okay.
A. Because he himself told me afterwards, so that's how I remember.
Q. Can we take that as under -- how do you call it? Undertaking to have his -- I don't want the tape of the farman. I just want that one minute. From the moment he says that the jamat may be wondering why I'm making this farman up to the time people started clapping. That's one minute. Can I have that one minute?
MR. GRAY: Well, if you want to explain something.
THE DEPONENT: Let me tell you, the farmans are privileged communications between the murid and the Imam.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. So I understand that as to be no?
A. I would say to you that this, whatever it is, is in the public domain, and to put any text, my humble view is that --
Q. Mr. Sachedina, partly I would agree with you, because as everybody knows, you have not put the book in the court and I have not done that also, nor has Alnaz done that. So we have all agreed it is remain between Ismailis. We don't dispute that. You have stated that the sentence was cut off. This is why we need that tape, that one minute. Unless you agree that the sentence was not cut off and there is a two-second blank, there is no sound, and then people start applauding to the statement, I would like to have that tape from you. One minute. I don't need the whole farman. That one sentence --
A. On record.
Q. On record plus --
MR. GRAY: On the record here?
THE DEPONENT: Can I share that with you outside this record?
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. You know, I'm not a lawyer. Honestly, I have a copy of the tape. So because you have put on record that the sentence was not completed, and having the copy of the tape, I know the sentence was complete. We need to prove it. I don't want it to become a fight between us.
A. No.
Q. But you are saying what I'm saying the opposite. If you produce that one minute, it will prove conclusively that the sentence was completed, there was a two-second gap, and everybody started applauding. Everybody was happy about the statement from the Imam, that the leaders are not necessarily conveying his message?
MR. GRAY: You'd have to put it in evidence now.
MR. TAJDIN: Because you have stated the contrary, that the sentence was not finished. If there is no dispute on that -- and I'm not asking the whole tape.
MR. GRAY: You're giving evidence yourself now. I mean this is --
MR. TAJDIN: Well, because we are talking of --
MR. GRAY: If you wanted to put it in evidence, you could have done so.
MR. TAJDIN: Okay. Mr. Brian, let's take it as an undertaking --
MR. GRAY: No, we will not.
MR. TAJDIN: We need that one minute to prove if, yes or no, you are right.
THE DEPONENT: I'm sorry, but I'm really not getting this at all as to what is the rationale behind this question. Because I told you that we have -- what Imam has authorized for the release of that farman, Imam has authorized. Which is out to the jamat.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Mr. Sachedina --
A. By the Imam.
Q. -- the question was -- you would allow me to say it again because you replied to me in that way, that the sentence was not completed about what the Imam said on the leaders --
A. No. I said his chain of thought was not completed. You heard me. He was not able to --
Q. So now, Mr. Sachedina, we need that one-minute recording, not more.
MR. GRAY: No.
--- REFUSAL
BY MR. TAJDIN.
Q. Just that recording. You can give me the last word of the recording up to the moment people start clapping?
MR. GRAY: No.
--- REFUSAL
MR. TAJDIN: Well, we need to prove conclusively that the sentence was completed and there was a silence after that.
MR. GRAY: You have a copy of it. I guess if you felt you should --
MR. TAJDIN: But, you know, I'm asking the question. I'm not replying here. I can't produce it; right? I cannot go home and bring the tape.
MR. GRAY: If you felt you needed to put it into evidence, you should have done so. As you yourself said, we are not anxious to put farmans in --
MR. TAJDIN: Yes, but with all respect due, I was not aware that there will be in this examination a statement which is not representing what the tape is showing.
MR. GRAY: Well --
MR. TAJDIN: If I was aware, obviously I would have brought it into --
MR. GRAY: My current position is no, but I will consider it. I'll reconsider it.
--- UNDER ADVISEMENT
MR. TAJDIN: Thank you. Thank you for considering.

Contradiction: Recall all books or just the Golden Edition?

Would the Imam ask Mr Tajdin to undertake an impossible task?

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #453 - #459:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, if you go to the first page, the last sentence -- last paragraph, rather, he says in there: 'I believe that this has been explained to you by the institutions on a number of occasions. I, therefore, expect you and the other murids who are working with you immediately to take all necessary measures to recall and to withdraw from your circulation your recent publication.' [as read] Now, would you agree with me that in this letter he's asking Mr. Tajdin to recall? What do you understand by 'recall'?
A. Whatever he has been able to distribute to whoever, he should get them back, if possible.
Q. Do you agree with me that Mr. Tajdin has no legal recourse to withdraw or ask anybody to return the books?
MR. GRAY: Don't answer that.
--- REFUSAL
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Would you agree with me that this sentence imposes on Mr. Tajdin to do something that it is not possible to do; would you agree with me?
MR. GRAY: Are you asking him a legal question, is it possible to do it or not?
MR. JIWA: No. I'm saying that His Highness is asking here, his letter, telling Mr. Tajdin to recall.
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Let me give you an example. By this letter if Mr. Tajdin has given me hundred books, tells me, 'send it back to me' and I refuse to do so, what can Mr. Tajdin do?
MR. GRAY: Don't answer that question. You're asking him about a legal question and --
--- REFUSAL
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Would you agree that he has no legal recourse to come to me?
A. I would not be able to respond on legal matters.
Q. So would you agree with me that what His Highness has written here is practically impossible to achieve?
MR. GRAY: Again, don't answer that question.
THE DEPONENT: Same answer again.
--- REFUSAL
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Would you also agree with me that his only concern now with this publication, because all he's asking to withdraw is your recent publication; he's no longer concerned about his previous publications; would you agree with me?
A. This publication covers farmans from the previous publication.

Contradiction: Who mentioned Nagib Tajdin's Name?

Nagib Tajdin published a dozen Farman Books between 1992 and 2009 after receiving Imam's guidance. He was wrongfully accused in Court by Sachedina and Bhaloo but there was no affidavit from H.H. The Aga Khan nor any known retainer by him to the lawyer. The whole case was bogus. Later in October 2010 the Imam confirmed that he had given instruction to publish the Farman Books in the 1992 Mehmani. The transcript was manipulated and somehow the tape did not contain anything, the Court Typist was arranged by Sachedina's lawyer Mr Gray.

Sachedina's Affidavit says that the Imam mentioned Nagib Tajdin's activities to Sachedina. His earlier testimony says he knew nothing of Nagib's actions before he started working at Aiglemont. Now, Sachedina says that he is the one who mentioned Nagib's name to the Imam.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #465:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. And in those discussions, did His Highness ever tell you who is behind the publications?
A. He asked the question. He has asked the question, and I have told him Nagib because I know of Nagib as the publisher.

Sachedina #468 - #471:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. So His Highness did not tell you that it's Mr. Tajdin. He said 'there are some murids who are doing this and I want you' --
A. I did tell him that the one that I know who is at the centre of this was Nagib.
Q. You told him?
A. Yes.
Q. So at that time you told His Highness that you know it's Nagib?
A. Yes.
Q. And did His Highness say that there are other individuals as well?
A. No, I said to His Highness I know of Nagib's publications, and I did say to him that when I will go next to Canada, this issue, I will take it up with Nagib.

In 1998 Did sachedina and Bhaloo take the Farman Book Draft to the Imam?

The Draft that Nagib Gave for the Imam in 1998 is still in Bhaloo's house.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Bhaloo #136:
Cross-Examination by Mr Tajdin.
Q. Okay. How many of the farman books I have printed you have at your home either in Nairobi or in Toronto?
A. I have one book which is not printed. You gave it to me at the meeting. It is a white book. It's a draft farman. That's the one I have.
Q. It was a white book?
A. Yes. It had a white cover on it, and it said 'draft.'
Q. Okay. Can you take an undertaking -- undertaking of producing it?
MR. GRAY: I'll take that under advisement. I'm not going to undertake to do it, but I will consider it.
MR. TAJDIN: Okay. Can you produce --
MR. GRAY: As you know, this is a cross-examination.
MR. TAJDIN: -- a colour photograph of that draft book?
MR. GRAY: Okay, that's an alternative. We'll consider that, too. As this is a cross-examination, there's no duty to produce anything, but we will consider it. So you would like, as an alternative to producing the whole book, you would like a photograph of --
BY MR. TAJDIN: Q. I don't need the book because obviously I know what it is, but I just had a question because it was said it's a white cover, and I don't remember giving you any white-cover book. So just a colour photo will do.
MR. GRAY: So you would like a colour photograph of the cover of this document, this draft book?
MR. TAJDIN: Yes. I would like to see if it is white or it is burgundy. Just a colour photo.

Is the Imam concerned about the website?

Mr Sachedina states that there is a general concern about the contents of ismaili websites, and a review is pending, however, Mr Sachedina also says that Mr. Nagib himself has been part of the solution.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #477 - #493:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Now, again, if you go to the second page, it says 'I'm aware' -- the last paragraph: 'I'm aware that you perceive your efforts including the website that you have established and operate.' [as read] Now, I'm not so clear. Are you saying or His Highness saying that the website is also inappropriate?
A. Well, he is aware also of the website.
Q. No, that's not my question.
A. Yes. Inappropriate.
Q. My question is: In your discussions with His Highness --
A. Yes?
Q. -- did he tell you that website is also a problem?
A. Well, he says that there are a number of websites which cause him concern.
Q. So he's concerned about the websites as well?
A. Yes, but this is publication which is his works. The websites do not publish farmans on the thing. The issue I'm talking to you is very simple. This is talking about his works.
Q. My question is --
A. Websites are not his work.
Q. I understand. I understand. I just want to be clear with this. His Highness is concerned with the websites as well, and there are a number of websites, not only Mr. Tajdin?
A. Yes.
Q. And he's expressed that concern to you?
A. Yes, and we are looking into this matter. We have started working through the process with the website people to see how we can work with some of these. And, in fact, Nagib himself was part of the solution in some cases, and his advice was sought on some of the matters, to see how we can solve this problem.
Q. Right. But right now my question is that he disapproves of the various websites as well; correct?
A. Yes. From this letter to you.
Q. Not from the letter. You said earlier he has told you about that as well?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes?
A. I've said to you the websites are also a concern to him.
Q. To him?
A. Yes.
Q. And he has told that to you; right?
A. Yes. But here we're talking about how this particular issue relates to the publication of the farmans that we have got, which you have just -- the matters which are ahead of us in the litigation. We're not talking about the website in the litigation. We're talking about copyright issues of the publications and not the websites.
Q. Now, there are a number of individuals with websites; correct?
MR. GRAY: Are you telling us?
MR. JIWA: I'm asking him.
THE DEPONENT: There are people who have websites, yes, a number of websites.
BY MR. JIWA:
Q. Other than Mr. Tajdin?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And His Highness is concerned about all of them?
A. Well, no. It's a question of what is -- the review of these websites he wants to be carried out so that we know what is in each of these websites. He's concerned about the websites --
Q. So he's asking a review?
A. Of course. Of all of these websites.

Significance of Mehmani

A Murid is quite entitled to speak to his Imam during Mehmani. Imam does listen, interact with and guide Murids during Mehmanis. Although reluctant, even Mr Bhaloo came around to this conclusion.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Sachedina #179 - #183:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. All right. And would you agree with me that the purpose here is for the Imam to interact with that murid when he presents the mehmani?
A. If he wishes to do so.
Q. And often he will do so himself?
A. It is up to the Imam.
Q. No, we know it's up to the Imam. But often he does interact with the murid himself even without being asked?
A. Yes, it does happen.
Q. It does happen, right. And there is no restriction on that murid from talking to his Imam?
A. The murid is quite entitled to speak to his Imam if he wishes to do.
Q. And some do?
A. Some do, some don't.

Sachedina #195 - #199:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. However, if anybody wished to talk to the Imam, he can talk to the Imam?
A. It's the right of the murids, right.
Q. And to your knowledge, because you have been extensively involved in the jamat, and you were in 1994, which was a lot larger jamat than the Montreal jamat, to your knowledge, when that murid asked the Imam a question, the very purpose for the mehmani is for the Imam to respond and guide that murid?
A. Yes. The Imam, it's at his mercy and pleasure.
Q. And that's the purpose he does these mehmanis --
A. Yes.
Q. -- is to guide? Would you also agree with me that this mehmani is personal and not published? Like, you know, the whole jamat who is sitting there, they don't hear what's happening between the Imam and the murid.
A. Yes, it is done in the context of closeness with the murid and the murshid. But there are people standing nearby who are also observing, and the jamat observes what's happening. So there are always people who know but they can't listen.
Q. They can't. Because they are just observing?
A. (Deponent nods head up and down).

Bhaloo #67:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. ...My question was: Is the murid who presents the mehmani prohibited from asking the question orally to the Imam without giving any memorandum in writing?
A. It's not a generally-done thing.

Bhaloo #96 - #98:
Q. And do you recall during that '78 visit, His Highness a number of times said he wants to listen to specially the mehmanis that are represented so the jamat to remain calm?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. He said that on a number of occasions?
A. Yes.
Q. And then he specified that he wishes to listen to what his murids tell him, and he wants quiet in the jamat so he can listen; he said that a number of times?
A. Yes.

Significance of Talika

Talikas and Farmans are not regular speeches, they are treated with the greatest respect and special ceremonies as Divine words for the Ismaili community.

[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]

Bhaloo #142 - #167:
Cross-examination by N. Tajdin
Q. Okay. Mr. Bhaloo, not as a leader, not as a constitutional expert, just as an Ismaili, would you say that a talika and a farman is about the same thing; a talika is a written farman?
A. They're both given by the Imam, yes.
Q. You would accept that the talika is a written farman?
A. Sometimes the talikas are blessings, not farmans.
Q. Oh, blessings are not farmans?
A. I told you that talikas are sometimes blessings given by the Imam to the individuals, but not instructions in farmans.
Q. What about -- let's talk of -- tell me just -- you don't have to reply, just what age are you?
A. Old enough.
Q. Old enough. So in the '60s were you in East Africa?
A. In the 1960s?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Do you remember that period?
A. Parts of it, yes.
Q. Was it Nairobi or Kisumu or someplace around Kenya?
A. Both.
Q. Do you remember at that time when a talika was to be read, it was announced, and Ismailis kotters [ph.] in the street with drums and a person going around saying there is talika tonight?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. And the flag was put --
A. I do not think it was the '60s, though. It was the '50s.
Q. It was the '50s. Sorry. I did not think you would remember up to that time. I think you look so young. But, okay, so 50's. And the flag would go up on the jamat khana, and people seeing the flag up would know that there's a talika?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, we both live in Nairobi, so even today when there is a talika, the flag goes up to the jamat khana. Have you noticed that?
A. No, I have not.
Q. You have not noticed?
A. No, I have not.
Q. I would just suggest that it's a good thing to notice.
A. Thank you.
Q. So a talika, when it is read, I just want to go through some of the ceremonies that accompany the talika to show how important it is. Is it true that when a talika is to be read, there is a special ceremony for holy water?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it true that when a person is called to read the talika, usually it's a person of standing, someone very respected?
A. Mr. Gray, these are -- these are really questions dealing with religious matters and --
MR. GRAY: You have to speak up for the --
THE DEPONENT: These are really questions of religious matters, and I don't know whether it's pertinent to the case.
MR. GRAY: It is not pertinent to the case. It's totally irrelevant, in my submission, but I was letting Mr. Tajdin have as much leeway as I thought reasonable. It is really way beyond anything relevant to this case, and so in the interest of --
MR. TAJDIN: Okay, we are trying to define --
MR. GRAY: You're paying for your transcript and so you're paying for my copy of the transcript, so --
MR. TAJDIN: Mr. Gray --
MR. GRAY: Let me finish. You're paying for transcript and I'm paying -- and you're paying for my copy of the transcript. So if you want to go on like this, spending money and time on irrelevant matters, I'm going to let you do that as long as the witness feels comfortable. But when you're exploring these questions of holy water in Nairobi and the talika flag, I think we are getting awfully far afield from the issues in this case. So if you could try. And I really would like to give you as much leeway --
MR. TAJDIN: Mr. Brian --
MR. GRAY: Let me finish.
MR. TAJDIN: This is going just -- like, how long are you going to talk? Because we want to put it brief. You have said what you have to say. So can I continue asking my questions?
MR. GRAY: You interrupted me, but fine, go ahead.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Okay. Mr. Bhaloo, the book on which you have written an affidavit contains talika and farmans; right?
A. Clarify that?
Q. There is this Affidavit -- you are saying in your Affidavit that you are making this Affidavit in support of the Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment and for no other purpose? The last line. Do you know the subject matter of this lawsuit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Would you agree that it's on a book which contains talika and farmans?
A. Yes. It contains farmans, yes.
Q. Does it contain talikas also?
A. I have not read the Golden Edition book, so I would no know. This is the first time I'm looking at it.
MR. GRAY: The witness is referring to a book sitting on the table here in the examination room.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. You have written an affidavit in support of the motion. Have you read the motion? Did you read the motion?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So you know it's about farmans and talika book?
A. It is for summary judgment.
Q. It doesn't matter what summary judgment on what subject?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Okay. Is it on a book which was printed with farmans and talikas?
A. I remember the farman. I don't know about the talikas.
MR. GRAY: If it helps, we'll admit that the book contains farmans and talikas. If that helps you, we'll admit that.
BY MR. TAJDIN:
Q. Yes. And I will not go through the 15 or 12 ceremonies which accompany the reading of a talika. I will just ask you one general question: When a talika is read, there are a lot of religious ceremonies surrounding the reading of the talika; yes or no?
A. Mr. Tajdin, these are matters for those who have been initiated into the faith, and they are not matters for public discussion, and I will not get into that.
Q. Okay. Mr. Bhaloo, I'm not sure what to ask because it looks like you are very much on the defensive and whatever I would ask would not bring me any kind of reply.

2010-08-09 CROSS-EXAMINATIONS Transcripts for Summary Judgement Motions